Worst Sword

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spadroon

nothing
Veeky Forums is a faggot hipster board

They're a tertiary back up weapon that breaks easily. More of a status symbol than anything else.

japanese swords were renowned throughout east and southeast asia as being some of the sharpest and most finely crafted for their geographical area, and were among the most expensive trade items. they didn't compare to steel swords of europe, but in east asia they were the best around.

Soft iron back with a thin steel edge means that the blade doesn't flex and when it gets bend it stays bend, very small guard leaves your hands vulnerable and the aforementioned iron back means that the blade ends up needing a lot more mass than other swords, making their blades thicker, heavier and/or short for their size.

I don't think it's such a bad weapon. I think it's merely the knee jerk reaction to "MUH KATANA CUTS STEEL DISCIPLINED SAMURAI european swords are blunt and used as clubs god bless glorious japanese blacksmith, so ingenious and better than european" thing that was going. Japanese fetishes this sword much more than we do.
I think it's a clever way to come around their technological limitation and shit tier minerals

Galdius
>short
>no handguard
>made from inferior iron
>overbuilt for use of poor materials
But you can use it with shield
meantime
Katana
>short
>no handguard
>made from inferior iron
>overbuilt for use of poor materials

They almost exclusively used spears

I have never understood how the dacian sword could ever work in a battlefield.
Image related

Shock and awe get your heavy inf to bog down the enemy and get the falxs into the side of the enemy.

Or ever go head on . couldn't the falxs split a Roman helmet, which is why they added the extra guard to the helm the one on the forehead .

you can't throw the pommel

>when it gets bend it stays bend
Actually it's not a drawback but a feature, bent is better than snapped in two as you can bend it back. That's the only way to make it with an edge which was of extemely hard steel.

Also the tsuba is fine as it is, considering you would be wearing gauntlets.

>you can't use memes
how is it bad already?

It was actually a good sword.

t. Other Asians.

>Also the tsuba is fine as it is, considering you would be wearing gauntlets.
Katana was also a self-defense weapon used out of armor.

Well the back edge isnt iron by any measure, and while the sword can break, as can any sword, unless your dealing with spring temper which really only came about for a small period in one part of the globe there are not many better designs The tsuba actually does provide hand protection.

The fact is that the katana was used not just in japan but throughout south east asia, including china. There was nothing wrong with it or it wouldnt have been so widely copied

source?

youtu.be/R55Un3rLuDg?t=376
the katana dosen't have a crossguard because it dosen't need one

Messers handguards don't have much more protection than the tsuba and they were used for all-around use and self-defense. A minimalist guard is fine if you know how to keep your sword hand out of reach. No guard at all sure is risky and "bad" somehow, but tsuba ain't worse than a typical crossguard. You don't parry with a handguard anyway.

Nothing, it's just the best the Japanese could do with their shit resources on their islands.

It is a versatile slasher, fit for the area and the kind of warfare it was used in. Two or one handed, on foot or on horseback, cutting down peasants and fighting other people who don't have shields.

It's simply alright, not a superweapon but also not a long knife made of tinfoil as some memers here say.

>b-but 20000000000000 folds of steel
>m-muh anime

Some user posted a bunch of pictures of Japanese blades mounted in other countries fittings. I have some of them

Like a meat cleaver, same like any other falx. You bring it down on your enemy's head or hack at his sides.

It was decent as a penis extender/unarmed and unarmored peon cutter but when compared to Indian, Middle-Eastern or European swords it is pretty shitty.

>You don't parry with a handguard anyway.
Yes you do, at least in the German school of fencing, the Krone guard for example stops the blade with the guard, same goes for some Ochs techniques.

...

People always say this but I never see a source. Why didn't any other countruis adopt it then. The Chinese used the sword the katana was copied from but at least they adapted their design.

>Thicker sword snaps lighter sword

no shit

Reposting because plebs and newfriends ITT:

The Chinese and other Asians historically had a high opinion of Japanese swords. Let that sink in: the Chinese, who were more advanced than the Japanese in Metallurgy at the time (i.e. they had blast furnaces for one thing while the rest of the world made do with bellows.)

>"From the land of the Rising Sun comes precious swords across the eastern sea, the merchants of Yüeh fetch them. With scabbards of fragrant wood, sharkskin-covered, and bearing designs in silver and gold, trappings of brass and bronze; For a hundred pieces of gold (if you like such things) you can buy one And buckling that on your belt, defy all road side hags and devils"
-Poet/Historian/Politician Ouyang Xiu, ca 1060AD, Song Dynasty.

>"They (Japanese Pirates) disdain life and are bloodthirsty… The blades of the Japanese sabers are sharp and make Chinese swords look inferior."
-Riben Kao (Study of Japan), by General Li Yangong. On the subject of Japanese pirates in the 16th Century

In fact, the Katana led to a revival of two handed sword use in China. Having fought nomads for so fucking long, the Chinese have pretty much disdained their two handed swords in favor of one handers (more useful for mounted combat or carrying a spear/bow around). Their battles with Japanese rogues during the 1300's-1400's on the other hand impressed Chinese infantry commanders, who then revived the Zhangdao (long dao) and the Shuang Shou Jian (Two Handed Jian) swords.

Also Japanese swords were in high demand in the civilian weapons trade since the Song Dynasty up until Japan closed off in the 1600's. Even then Chinese smugglers imported Japanese blades, particularly ones made by known masters, which were treated as works of art by discerning Chinese customers.

Contd.

Also much of the fascination by Asians of the Japanese sword is basically the design. Continental Eastern Asia- following China mostly- had two kinds of swords: single handers and two handers. Single handers of both the single/double edged versions were perfect for cavalry usage, fighting on foot with a shield, or as a backup weapon for infantrymen. They however lacked the power of a two handed sword. The dedicated swordman's sword is the two hander: shit like the Changdao or the Shuang Shou Jian. Used by assault troops, foot bodyguards, they were more powerful than their one hander cousins but are too big to use in CQC or on horseback.

So when the Katana (or rather, the Tachi,) hit the Asian mainland in the 1100s via trade & pirates, everyone was blown away. In the risk of sounding like FutureWeapons guy, here was a sword whose geometry allowed for the power of a two hander sword, but the size was small enough for use as a single hander, and on horseback. An Asian Bastard Sword if you will. Elite Cavalrymen of the Ming & Qing period particularly loved the Wodao as they called it, since this meant that they can have a powerful two hander saber they can use even on horseback, and often you can see Ming & Qing heavy cavalry armed with a mix of Jian, Dao, and Wodao blades, based on preferences of the owners.

When it came out, it also influenced swordsmithing on the mainland Asia, particularly the return to two hander swords and experiments on hand/half swords.

Are you implying the dao is the same as a katana? Cause its not.

Not that user, but there is sword collectors literature of ancient China, apparently they had a knack for Jap swords and priced them highly. They also loved Indo-Persian wootz blades.

Japanese swords are interesting, if you follow the bloomery process for iron making this is about the best quality ever made, anywhere. Metallurgical advances lead to a different process of obtaining ferro materials and to a different process of making swords in Europe around the high medieval time. Before that, Europeans used the same process. Truly amazing thing is the Japanese use it still today.

I had forgotten about that video until you just reminded me of it. Thanks a lot, user...

While Katana is bad, lightsaber is the worst of all:

>No handguard
>You can accidentally hack your limbs off
>Consumes a lot of energy
>Gamma radiation will kill you moments after you began to use it.

Don't forget
>need to be a space wizard so that you can use it without having 99% chance of amputating at least one of your limbs

He didnt say that. He just posted a Japanese blade in Chinese mountings there are two in this thread what more do you want?

You wouldn't believe the funny accidents you see with sharp swords.
>ears, foots, fingers, wrists

I'm trying to point the Wodao out.

Because that is the Dao that descended from Nip designs.

It's already in the name: Wodao. Saber of the Wo (Japanese) People.

I've always wondered how it worked but it does seem it worked well. Although, the Dacians had a fair amount of resources and were well known iron workers, so it could be the number of Dacians wielding falxs that made the weapon feared/successful rather than the weapon itself.

Aztec swords which were made of obsidian. They cut well, in a saw like motion after the initial hit, but the obsidian breaks apart after 3-5 hits requiring you to use the other side before that breaks. Making a total of 10 blows, you'd have to make count in the battlefield.

Most have what I've seen is you first parry with the blade and let it slide on the crossguard, the same thing is also done in japanese fencing. I'd argue that parrying directly with the crossguard is extremely dangerous but well...
Besides, most of what's left of german fencing (Lichtenauer school anyway) isn't really typical fencing (whatever that means). One peculiar example doesn't mean that most of the time, you parry with the blade and the guard is there to prevent offensive slidings to your hands and such.

>isn't really typical fencing
Wrong, Liechtenauer school was the typical fencing for at least two centuries in Western Europe.
And again it is not one example, the Crown guard is a mainstay so is the Ochs, and there is many more techniques where you catch the blade on the guard, described so in dozens of period manuals.

Everything that I've read describing Lichtenauer longsword is that it's a peculiar fencing aimed at defeating "regular swordsmen" though...

Also,
>Liechtenauer school was the typical fencing for at least two centuries in Western Europe.
Obviously it depends on what you understand as "western europe", Mitteleuropa to describe the former HRE seems a better pick cause where I am, France, England, and even Spain is "Western Europe". I seriously doubt they were doing Lichtenauer or any german traditions in those countries.

Just because it's most of what we have left and because it's widely studied certainly doesn't mean it was the common fencing of the late Middle-Ages. In fact, there's reason to believe that the "Nuremberg Fencing" was just as common for instance.

Guys, why don't you just drop the fake arguments and just admit that parrying with the cross was common in European fencing. Most manuals we have show such techniques and thats proof enough.

>In fact, there's reason to believe that the "Nuremberg Fencing" was just as common for instance.
off topic and the Nuremberg tradition used crossguard parries as well.

literally the best sword, hands down

The Gladius was based on a celtic sword you fucking retard

A katana is pretty crappy on a battlefield or in a duel, but it's great for self defense. It is optimized to draw and slice in one fluid motion, which is great when the shit goes down suddenly and without warning. Think "quickdraw" like in a western movie (which are really just re-skinned samurai movies). It's overall inferior to a broadsword or a rapier, but it has its charms. (Plus it's aesthetic as fuck.)

Alright Veeky Forums, make your tier list

>Longsword
>katana
>Rapier
>Dao
>Jian
>Macuahutil
>Claymore/Zweihänder/other greatswords
>Sabre/talwar etc
>Gladius/xiphos etc
>Kopesh
>Kopis/falcata etc
>katar

Rapier (with dagger)
Rapier (without dagger), Schiavona, Sidesword, Sabre
Smallsword
Scottish Basket-hilted Broadsword
Zweihänder, No-dachi
Katana
Arming sword
Longsword
Falchion
Gladius

no

I thought Aztecs liked to capture their enemies and saw killing on the battlefield as clumsy

>t. bad taste Anglo

Sorry, I should have been more clear

my greet-ext list wasn't an actual tier list, it was the list of stuff people needed to organize into tiers

They did, though in actual battles instead of flower wars they obviously had to actually kill and did so effectively.

The thing with machuaitl's is is that you can use the flat, woode sides of it to strike nonlethally to incapacitate.

I think that user's numbers are pulled out of his ass though on how long they'd last.

...

For me, it's Srbosjek.

Other then my personal preference on aesthetics, there are nor real tiers for swords. Also lots of your stuff is generic, longsword for example does include Zweihänders.

>benis haha

The Two Handed Great Sword is the best sword

literally this

all swords have pros and cons ppl need to stop being butt hurt millennials

...

metal music + a fat guy cutting meat with swords is a combination that never fails to make me laugh.

Lynn is living the dream!

Swords are designed for fit various social needs given the existing materials. Rating them is kinda stupid

And the haft also went in after the blade; and the fat closed upon the blade, so that he could not draw the dagger out of his belly; and the dirt came out.

The Katana was a fashion accessory. It was very much the iPhone of the time. In fact, swords in general were side arms, if you were an actual soldier, you want want to go into battle with a spear or some other ranged weapon.

Pic related.

katana were actualy used fairly often in warfare compared to japanese spears. IN the late period around 3% to 7% vs maybe 15% to 20% for the spear.

Of course that's simply the battlefield. for a duel or non battlefield altercation the usage of swords would go way up. Which is why the Japanese did have swords of many sizes for different situations and effective schools on how to use them .

That's a good trench weapon imo

>what's wrong with katanas

Childhood is preferring one sword over another. Adulthood is recognizing they're just fucking swords.

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Since this is the only sword thread here I am bumping with more sword stuff.

This guy is amazing!

youtube.com/watch?v=uU0k3nwe32c&feature=youtu.be

youtube.com/watch?v=JhNHh7DooKM&feature=youtu.be

If swords were side-arms then that does mean they were used in battlefield.
>if you were an actual soldier, you want want to go into battle with a spear or some other ranged weapon.
No if you were an actual soldier, you would want to go into battle with a spear AND a sword AND a short sword or dagger AND maybe a bow because who knows. You don't need to choose between a spear and a sword.

Also, I'll repost this clip of Katori Shinto-ryu to show that some techniques are doable and thought for armored sword against sword work.
youtube.com/watch?v=8aeWU8CYl5M

And then if you want a nice text on the development, evolution and waning of Kenjutsu, development of kendo as a nationalist implement, philosophy around japanese swordsmanship as it evolved from the battlefield to the Edo dojos, I'd recommand the thesis of Alexander Bennett (who is 7th dan in kendo for that matter).

ir.canterbury.ac.nz/bitstream/handle/10092/6869/Thesis_fulltext.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

Thanks for the link! this is great

>this
We're all contrarians and katanas have a terrible rap from weaboo fuckery but when you get down to it, they're just what Japan could do with their resources.
They fought wars with iron they had to blast out of sand and wooden armor just because that's what they have. I don't blame weaboos for thinking that's interesting

The vast majority of Japanese armor was steel. If you ever held it those wooden looking parts are steel covered in lacquer and linked together.

No foreign observer wrote in the 16th century that Japanese weapons and armor were shit. On the contrary every account Ive ever read praised their arms

hey this is actually a pretty cool video. I like seeing this kind of more historical kendo stuff, seeing how it could be practical in a warfare duel situation is very cool.

Most of the old schools targeted the inner gaps of the armor, or at least dedicated part of their curriculum to it.

youtube.com/watch?v=19lJerM4bj4

The secret to Roman success was their bureaucratic and strategic advancement compared most of their tribal foes, not some sword design. Take a look at the Punic Wars for instance, Carthage literally pwned the Romans in their own turf and Romans didn't strike back until the Carthaginians stopped backing Hannibal for god knows why.

Is there anything the Japanese imperial government did right?

Patrician

>the Carthaginians stopped backing Hannibal for god knows why.
>for god knows why.
Because they feared that he would get too much power.

Here is the whole documentary:
youtube.com/watch?v=W5N8ny4REGU
youtube.com/watch?v=N3cpPRBlnwc
youtube.com/watch?v=V3IFK46RDbc
youtube.com/watch?v=xSO7wJ3wmdk

Katori Shinto ryu is specific as it "hides" the armored fencing to look at unarmored fencing (I guess that in effect you could still use those techniques but you'd better be fast). The kata for "naked" fencing (gogyo no kata) are done much more closer and much faster, they are also shorter as the long armored kata are suppose to develop attention to danger for a long period and endurance. Unarmored fencing is more about explosivity.

(Damn seeing this again now after having watched 2010's embu is really strange, the teacher's second son, Shigetoshi, looks sooo young).

>Is there anything the Japanese imperial government did right?
Late 19th century modernization. They went from a somehow backward feudal country to one of the emerging power equal to the United States and the older European countries in like one generation.

The katana is an amazing technical feat considering the crappy iron they had access to. And on par with the Damascus steel.

On the functional aspect is was a cutting weapon. In those times an infected wound was enough to disable or kill you. So it was enough for the job, considering they didnt have to fight shielded enemies.

Also the olden katana were less sharp and not as fragile. In the sengoku era firearms changed warfare, so the katana gradually became more of an ultra-sharp ritualistic object for katas and the occasional slaughtering.

The razors sharp blades of today have more to do with tamashigiri competiton.

there were plenty of smiths during the eod era who made combat functional blades for martial artists, their just somewhat overshadowed by the art pieces

Underrated post there Matt Easton.

>macuahuitl
>sword

A blunt instrument with blades or sharpened edges is still a blunt instrument, to be blunt.

Swords were usually about ideal for the resources available and the task at hand.

The truly worst sword would be one people allowed themselves to believe was good for petty reasons, perhaps an ornamental sword which was rushed into service.