>WWI ends, Germany to pay reparations >they pay for 1921 >they can't pay for 1922 >ask for a break and a loan to recover, will pay later >USA agrees, France mad >in 1923 France invades Germany to get the money by force >Germany not allowed to defend itself because she isn't allowed a big army and the area is demilitarized >French and their Belgian stooges move over 120000 soldiers into the industrial heart of Germany >the German economy suffers immensely from that area not being under their control, all the coal and steel mines are there >French soldiers kill over 130 young German workers who refused to work for the illegal French occupation >this was allowed to go on for two years, absolutely destroying German economy, because British and Americans didn't want to hurt Entente relationships and lose France to the USSR
Can we all agree that the French are the official "bad guys" of the interwar period?
When you consider the damage done on their own turf you can understand why the French wanted to secure some delicious industrial land right on their border
Ian Morris
>You can trust a country that has invaded you twice in the past 40 years
The French were right to be skeptical of the evil Teutons.
Eli Barnes
Are you excusing organized military invasion against a disarmed opponent without declaring war with the goal of stealing taxes and killing civilians to achieve it?
Need I remind you that according to international treaties, during Germany's disarmament period, since they weren't allowed a large enough army to defend themselves, France was meant to defend them?
Aaron Perez
>Invade France and kill the French >Lose >Pay back
Seems logical
Henry Collins
Germany couldn't pay its debts, and the French got their money back in land
Just because there was a treaty meant jack shit, there are no morals in international politics only interests
Aaron Cruz
>invading them just enough to piss them off, but not invading them enough to incapacitate them
France and Germany really are sister peoples.
Alexander Rogers
Germany could pay its debts, just with a delay. They asked for a 4 years delay and a loan from the USA, which the USA approved and said is reasonable. The French invaded without declaring war, and actively prevented further payments by denying Germany her main money maker.
Adam Roberts
>The Treaty of Versailles and the 1921 London Schedule of Payments required Germany to pay 132 billion gold marks (US$33 billion) in reparations to cover civilian damage caused during the war. This figure was divided into three categories of bonds: A, B, and C. Of these, Germany was only required to pay towards 'A' and 'B' bonds totaling 50 billion marks (US$12.5 billion). The remaining 'C' bonds, which Germany did not have to pay, were designed to deceive the Anglo-French public into believing Germany was being heavily fined and punished for the war.
>The German Government estimated it had paid the equivalent of 67.8 billion gold marks in reparations. The Reparation Commission and the Bank for International Settlements state that 20.598 billion gold marks was paid by Germany in reparations, of which 7.595 billion was paid before the implementation of the London Schedule of Payments. Niall Ferguson provides a slightly lower figure. He estimates that Germany paid no more than 19 billion gold marks. Ferguson further estimates that this sum amounted to 2.4 per cent of Germany's national income between 1919 and 1932. Stephen Schuker, in his definitive econometric study (1988, pp. 106–19), concedes that Germany transferred 16.8 billion marks over the whole period, but points out that this sum was vastly offset by the devaluation of Allied paper-mark deposits up to 1923, and by loans that Germany subsequently repudiated after 1924. The net capital transfer into Germany amounted to 17.75 billion marks, or 2.1% of Germany's entire national income over the period 1919–1931. In effect, therefore, America paid reparations to Germany—four times more, in price-adjusted terms, than the U.S. furnished to West Germany under the post-1948 Marshall Plan.
>However, the burden of repairs was shifted away from the German economy and onto the damaged economies of the war's victors.
kek
Isaiah Evans
>Gerhard Weinberg >*berg
Parker Ross
If Germany didn't like how they were treated after the Great War they shouldn't have started it
Jaxson Rogers
I don't think they started WWI because they expected to be treated well after losing. They may have thought they would win. Just a speculation.
Also, the reparations they enforced on Russia were six billion marks, ten times less than what was asked of them. That may give you a hint as to what they expected.
Samuel Mitchell
>I owe money to multiple banks >I use this to start a business >I don't pay back my loans >"Please give me 4 years delay." >One of the banks says no and seizes my business
Grayson Perry
>I owe money to multiple banks >I use this to start a business >I don't pay back my loans >"Please give me a loan to pay back my other loans." >Okay senpai, here it is, take your time, say the banks. >One of the banks says no and seizes my business >Even after seizing it the bank still demands I pay fees. >The bank kills my son who was working there. >The other banks let this happen, because bank unions are more important than human lives.
Bentley Collins
That's my point. Germany rolled the dice in 1914 by using the July Crisis to go hyper aggressive. If they won they would have been the dominant power in the 20th Century. They lost, and there were consequences.
It sucks, but so does starting a world war and there needs to be consequences to nations who do that to discourage aggression.
Brandon Lopez
>An autistic artist reads all these shitty analogies about banks and interest and blames it all on the Jews
Jaxson Flores
Germany forced crippling reparations on France in 1871.
The French paid and didn't try to weasel their way out of it.
Joseph Turner
And my point is that it was in French interest to wait 4 years and then get your money, instead of invading, not getting your money due to worker strikes, and then later being forced to withdraw claims to most of that money because you ruined german economy to the point where it can't possibly pay.
France and Belgium lost money by invading, and Germany lost its economy and human lives, and the left wing lose credibility. Germany turned from a socialist democracy to a fascist state within a generation.
William Moore
Perhaps the French political class had to contend with a public opinion who was in no mood to see a negotiation with the Germans after the devastation they brought on the northeastern part of their country (their industrial heartland).
Just a thought.
>Germany turned from a socialist democracy to a fascist state within a generation. Are you blaming the French for Hitler? Seriously?
Jason Ortiz
>Are you blaming the French for Hitler? Seriously? Politics shifting right doesn't equal Hitler. And yes, I am blaming the illegal invasion and annexation of Germany during its socialist period as the leading cause of people losing trust in the socialists. The economic collapse was also seen as a direct consequence of losing the industrial zone and of weak socialist politics, thus also caused by that invasion.
When you try something, and it fails spectacularly, you overreact and go the opposite direction. That happened in Germany, thanks to the French invasion.
Hunter Perry
>crippling reparations lol
Bentley Scott
Hitler was a joke before the 1929 crisis. The French didn't cause that one.
>annexation of Germany What the hell are you talking about?
Adam Myers
That's historically deterministic. The situation in Weimar Germany may have given context for Hitler coming to power, but it didn't cause it. Hitler and the Nazis caused it.
>When you try something, and it fails spectacularly, you overreact and go the opposite direction.
Very oversimplified view of history.
Jaxson Davis
>annexation Occupation.
Henry Perry
>Very oversimplified view of history.
Its almost as if I wrote a 3 line Veeky Forums post and not a fucking book.
Lincoln Brooks
>Bismarck wrote that "France being the richest country in Europe, nothing could keep her quiet but effectually to empty her pockets".
>It was generally assumed at the time that the indemnity would cripple France for thirty or fifty years. However the Third Republic that emerged after the war embarked on an ambitious programme of reforms, introduced banks, built schools (reducing illiteracy), improved roads, spreading railways into rural areas, encouraged industry and promoted French national identity rather than regional identities. It didn't work out but it was certainhly the intent.
>The indemnity was 5 billion francs (£200 million or $1000 million), with German troops occupying France until it was paid. The 5 billion gold marks, converted using the retail price index in 2011, was worth 342 billion. Converted using the GDP deflater it amounted to 479 billion and substantially more according to other comparisons such as GDP per head. Perhaps the Versailles Treaty should have left the French occupy the Ruhr until the debt was paid, like Germany did in 1871. It worked wonders.
Cameron Richardson
Germany should had been dismantled after WW2
Michael Moore
A three or four line incorrect post
Zachary Ross
It was
Ian Ortiz
It was
Jose Morris
It was.
Gavin Hernandez
Except they didn't start it. Austria hungary and then subsequently Russia were the main drivers behind the the war. Germany was a victim of circumstance and had to act decisively and aggressively to ensure they stood any chance at all.
Lincoln Diaz
>le preemptive strike meme
Do you also support Israel's invasion of Egypt?
Noah Howard
Well when you have Russia on one side and France on the other both allied against you then I can understand why a country would put it's survival on a dice roll. Egypt is not as big of a threat to Israel as France, Russia and England at the height of their colonial power and wealth.
Nicholas Jenkins
It was.
Charles Johnson
>WW1 ends >Germany, the country that escalated the war and caused the most destruction, is allowed to remain an united country while much older A-H and Ottoman Empire are dismantled >Germany is logically asked some (relatively small) reparations for the huge amount of destruction they caused in Belgium and France >Germany isnt even under military occupation (except in a tiny region for a short time after they refused to pay reparations) >German butthurt have all material means and freedom it needs to express itself >Germans starts another world war
Now let's look at what happened after WW2 >Germany is dismantled into two parts >Germany is submitted to a never ending full scale military occupation that is still enforced to this day >German national spirit is carefully destroyed by the occupiers and German collaborators >Germans never chimp out again
The bad guys of the interwar were whoever decided to let Germany get away so easily Americans and Soviets had it right in WW2
Nathaniel Miller
>Germany was a victim of circumstance
Kek The mental gymnastics Germanboos will do to excuse their precious land
Thomas Young
>relatively small reparations The largest reparations in the history of warfare.
Austin Baker
Russia mobilised first, and they had as much business meddling at the Balkans as Austria-Hungary.
If Russia and France had been politically more reasonable they would have realised that threatening Germany with war would lead to war because there was no way Germany would allow themselves to get bullied into submission at that point - especially if they were reasonably afraid that the balance of power would not shift in their favour in the future.
Robert Young
>everyone mobilizes >Germany warns people to either demobilize, or its war >of course nobody would demobilize while the Germans themselves are mobilized, its suicide >Germany declares war
It is the Germans who created this position, with their mutually assured destruction bluff that they tried. Had Russia indeed started to demobilize, I am 100% certain, and would bet my testicles on it, that Germany would have invaded Russia to run it over quickly.
Andrew Foster
...
Carter Thomas
If Germany had been sane they would've demobilized because there was no way the Entente could lose to the Central powers, especially with the US so obviously leaning towards backing them.
Andrew Ramirez
USA was leaning Germany initially if anything, it only moved to Britain because the British controlled the telegraph, so there was zero German news or propaganda, and ALL of the British propaganda being distributed in the USA.
Chase Jackson
>USA was leaning Germany initially if anything That's hilarious. What other fun alternate history facts do you have to share with us?
Elijah Hernandez
Germany acted like cartoon villains in Belgium. The propaganda was writing itself.
Sebastian Howard
They were also the pieces of shit pushing for partitioning Austria-Hungary. I don't care about German empire that much, but for what they did to Donaumonarchie I hope France keeps drowning in muslim and leftist shit forever until they finally perish.
Tyler Anderson
They started a fucking world war
Landon King
>actually defending napoleon iii
He was a miserable failure and France got what they deserved in that war they started against Prussia
Luis Collins
Frogs are scum nothing new
Matthew White
As yourselft what would have Germany done to France if they had won. WW2 gives you an idea.
They had it coming and got off easy all things considered.
Grayson Nguyen
>and France got what they deserved in that war they started against Prussia
And somehow Germany didnt in the war they started against France (WW1)?
Christopher Watson
Yeah France lost pretty badly in 1870, but this isn't a thread about that war. He was giving context to the situation France was in in the 1920s. A powerful neighbour had engaged them in two massive and costly wars in the previous 50 years. France wanting to keep Germany down understandable. Germans being pissed off was also understandable, but they lost the war.
Like what this guy said. Germans would have fucked France hard if they won.
Jayden Cook
Fucking Prussians had the guts to demand reparations for 1870 while not even an inch of their territory was touched
But God forbids that France asks for reparations when they had a big chunk of their country turned into a smoking pile of ashes by German invaders....
Gavin Ross
>comparing 1870 and 1914
Confirmed retarded.
Charles Butler
Indeed.
It was much more reasonable for France to ask for reparations in 1918 than for Germany in 1871.
Robert Green
Why? It wasn't unusual and the country was barely destroyed. Hint: The Paris Opera was completed 4 years later.
The question of guilt was also crystal clear, whereas in WWI, Germany was the least responsible for the outcome.
Dylan Cook
>The question of guilt was also crystal clear, whereas in WWI, Germany was the least responsible for the outcome.
Kek, you're an imbecile In 1870, Prussia provoked France into attacking them Both sides were responsible
In WW1, Germany attacked France totally unprovoked (and attacked Russia with only very slight provokations)
Sebastian Long
>It wasn't unusual and the country was barely destroyed Then since it wasn't unusual why are you fixated on Germany in particular? Furthermore France most industrialised part was ruined after WW1 whereas no battle had been fought on German soil.
>in WWI, Germany was the least responsible for the outcome Are fucking you serious? Between the blank check to Austria-Hungary, invading Belgium and the declaration of war to France after it refused the Reich's retarded demands, Germany sure as hell isn't "the least responsable".
Ian Ortiz
>publishing a letter is provocation >mobilizing and moving into a flanking position isn't
Kevin Lee
France backing Russia on fueling Slavic terrorism in KuK monarchy played a major part, while Germany had no primary interest in a war in general.
Gavin Roberts
>In WW1, Germany attacked France totally unprovoked (and attacked Russia with only very slight provokations)
Read a book
William Sanders
See pics there and there France didnt provoke Germany
Grayson Cook
>while Germany had no primary interest in a war in general.
Just how dumb can one person be?
Levi Garcia
>Slavic terrorism >Slavic Say it with me: SERBIAN. Not Slavic.
Liam Scott
Neville Chamberlain and the British foreign ministry, and their anti-communist Isolation of Soviet-Russia was pretty bad too.
Cooper Cox
>Germany never waged an unprovoced war on the French just a few years earlier The French should have marched all the way to Berlin.
Hunter Nguyen
Have you ever heard of Revanchism? The whole setup for WWI was a French conception.
It was carefully planned and first didn't start to turn out in France's favour when Russia quickly surrendered.
To declare war on France was a formality.
John Perry
>Have you ever heard of Revanchism?
Well memed, friend Revanchism had long died by 1914 (until Germany resurrected it by attacking France)
The French government did all it could to avoid war, including withdrawing their army 10kms away from the border to appease Germany Guess what the Germans did? They used that to raid a French village:
>Germany didun nuffin >it was the French backing terrorism >also revanchism, Germany was just preemptively defending itself against French agression >also Hitler happened because of France, Germany had nothing to do with that >France asking reparations of Germany in 1918 was groundless but the opposite happening in 1871 was normal Am I being rused?
Elijah Diaz
Oh come on, are you serious? We have all the source material to trace back how the French engineered the Russian-French trap in detail.
Hint: The genereal mobilisation in France began as soon as 1st of August - prior to the Germans. This is in any scenario a declaration of war in itself (Belgium mobilized its army too)
Brody Kelly
How will wehraboos ever recover? German territorial ambition and aggro politics were the primary cause of WW1.
Henry Johnson
>The genereal mobilisation in France began as soon as 1st of August - prior to the Germans.
That's wrong, faggot French mobilization was in response to German mobilization earlier in the same day See timeline here
Matthew Martin
You're deluded. By then it was obvious that Germany was aiming for a war, what with the Reich asking for the fortressses of Toul and Verdun being handed to it as a sign of French neutrality. There was no way in hell it could have happened and the French were very much aware of what would follow, hence the mobilization.
But keep telling us how the poor Germans were set upon by the dastardly French.
Charles Thompson
France mobilized at 15:55, Germany at 17:00.
Germany did anything to prevent this shitshow. Russia and France escalated it. A small local conflict got blown out of proportion by powers that had no business there in the first place. Pretty much the blueprint for WWII.
Eli Butler
>Germany did anything to prevent this shitshow.
Michael Reed
>Germany: France, would you please stick to yourself this time >France: No.
Yeah, Germany trying to conquer the world. NOW I see it. LOL
Face it, the shitshow we're living in is the result of Europe being less like Germany.
As is it is these days.
Levi Russell
>Germany did anything to prevent this shitshow Top kek.
Cameron Rodriguez
>blaming the Entente for disbanding Austria-Hungary >not the ethnic tensions and discrimination within the AH military Every non-Austrian and non-Hungarian was treated like shit in their own army.
Connor Roberts
>Germany: Hey we want the key defenses of Paris, give them and we won't attack you. Trust us. >France: Hum, how about no. We'll withdraw our troops though. >Germany: HOLY SHIT HOW DARE YOU NOW IT'S ON
Fucking hell, the French were totally asking for it! How could I not see it before?
Oh wait no. You're officially full of shit. That'll teach me to argue with a germanboo.
Jaxson Cook
>not agreeing to stay neutral >mobilizing army
But Germany is to blame? Really?
Jaxon Mitchell
>Germany did anything to prevent this shitshow
Jaxon Garcia
>Asking a country you invaded a few decades ago to hand over its strongest fortresses to you in order to prove they're neutral >Surpized when they refuse
Really?
Dominic Taylor
You what
Are you serious Read any fucking commuque between the Germans and Austrians, they were literally baiting for blood
No one in the July Crisis was going to declare war on Germany, and they fucking knew it, they knew the Russians were still theee years from fully mobilising, and drew up plans to go through a fucking neutral county not in any way involved in order to destroy France in less than 40 days
At every point in the July Crisis you never see any German diplomats or officials goi "hmm, Maybe we shouldn't give the Austrians a blank check/maybe we should stop this escalation/maybe we should stop planning the schelen plan/maybe we should stop jamming Russian/French communications"
I just don't understand how you can defend Germany, sure blaming Balkan great power politics and Austrian overagression, or even the Serbs for failing to start a fucking inquiery about the terror attack, but you cannot say that Germany didn't want a war
Joshua Roberts
the german economy was up to the challenge of paying it back though. it wouldn't have even hurt economic growth that much
Connor Roberts
>I have no idea how economy works
Zachary Young
>Veeky Forums makes fun of /pol/ for being obsessed with Hitler >Veeky Forums has three threads a day arguing over who started the world wars
Jaxon Harris
>Austrian overagression Austrians were pushed into that war by Germany. If anything it's comical how easy Germany got off considering Austria got literally destroyed as a country.
Evan Miller
>My little cousin gets in a fight >I back him up >Shit gets very, very real >Finally beaten down >They steal my car and my guns, burn down my house, and make me promise to pay them 30,000 a month for the rest of the year if I don't want to get shot >I make 40,000 a year >I'm so severely injured that I won't be able to work for at least a month >Use all my savings to pay first couple months >Ask for an extension when I can't pay, they say sure >The guy who hates me most comes over later, kills my dog, and takes my fridge and stove. >TFW it's my fault for agreeing to pay more than I could
Jacob Moore
More like
>my neigbour gets in a fight >I join because it's against guys I hate and I hope I'll be able to steal their house when I beat them >I lose after burning one of my opponent's house >he forces me to pay him money to rebuild it >I whine even though I forced him to pay me money last time I beat him despite the fact my house was left untouched
Juan Foster
if you equal whining with people starving and abhorrent poverty you are right
Thomas Adams
Fuck off retard Germany wasn't starving in the 20s, real poverty started in the 30s because of the Great Depression (that had nothing to do with Versailles) The entire world was hit
More than 1 million people were dying in Germany after WWI as a direct result of the ongoing sea blockade Britain had established
Adrian Clark
Vae victis.
Daniel Rivera
This conception is hilarious. The roots of the inflation begin with the fact that the Imperial German government had an extraordinarily difficult time funding the mobilization and continuation of war. The German government was forced to float nine war loans in a four year period and each was more under-subscribed than the last (for context, the British floated three and the French four).
In addition to the self-inflicted inflationary pressure from the atrocious management of war funding, Rudolf Havenstein, who was president of the Reichsbank from 1908 to 1923, deliberately conspired with other facets of the German government to sabotage their currency. He had very little interest in curbing inflation and believed, along with many others, that by destroying the economy, the government would be able to force the Allied powers to reconsider the scope of reparations. Given the fact that the Germans were obviously not even going to pretend to make a good faith effort, the French and Belgians occupied the Rhur. The occupation and the death of Havenstein, along with the now protracted suffering of the German people, helped spur the German government to make serious efforts to fix the economy, the currency, and pay reparations. Havenstein's replacement, Hjalmar Schacht, was one of the most competent central bankers of the interwar period and his restoration of the Mark contributed to the completion of the Dawes and Young Plans, which in turn made the reparations process much less burdensome.
Dominic Martinez
Are you implying the Germans weren't white as snow?
Dominic Sanders
interesting post
Wyatt Diaz
The French were (and still are) scum. May they rot in hell.
Jonathan Gray
To add to this absolutely correct post, the reason the already high inflation became hyperinflation in 1923 was not simply because the French occupied the Ruhr, but because the German government responded by declaring "passive resistance" where they essentially paid workers and businesses in the Ruhr not to work for the French. In order to do this, they printed vast sums of money (they had already been printing vast sums before, but they kicked it into overdrive). This is what really killed the German economy. Just paying the reparations the French asked for would have cost far less than "passive resistance" did, and thus would not have triggered the same economic collapse.
Jaxon James
>they can't pay for 1922 They totally could though. See Sally Marks, "The Myth of Reparations."
