How could an empire with such a fearsome reputation get BTFO so bad?

Another account of the cavalry decisiveness:

>"My advice, however, was at length followed up, and we fell so heavily upon them that they retreated as far as the wells. All this time Cortes still remained behind with the cavalry, though we so greatly longed for that reinforcement: we began to fear that some misfortune might also have befallen him."
(...)
>"In one of these moments Cortes came galloping up with the horse. Our enemies being still busily engaged with us, did not immediately observe this, so that our cavalry easily dashed in among them from behind. The nature of the ground was quite favorable for its[Pg 76] manœuvres; and as it consisted of strong active fellows, most of the horses being, moreover, powerful and fiery animals, our small body of cavalry in every way made the best use of their weapons. When we, who were already hotly engaged with the enemy, espied our cavalry, we fought with renewed energy, while the latter, by attacking them in the rear at the same time, now obliged them to face about. The Indians, who had never seen any horses before, could not think otherwise than that horse and rider were one body. Quite astounded at this to them so novel a sight, they quitted the plain and retreated to a rising ground. Cortes now related why he had not come sooner. First, he had been delayed by the morass; then again he was obliged to fight his way through other bodies of the enemy whom he had met, in which five men and eight horses were wounded."
(...)
>"In this battle we took five prisoners, among whom were two chiefs."

- The True History of the Conquest of New Spain, Chapter LXV

>Chapter LXV
*Chapter XXXIV

>Guns
>Germs
>Steel

in all seriousness all three are correct. Gunpowder and cannons obviously gave the Spanish the edge, which made the Aztecs run in terror in what they could only assume were magic boomsticks that instantly killed people.

Disease also played a role, as the conquest of the Aztecs took place roughly 20 years after first contact between the New and Old Worlds, making smallpox, the flu, bubonic plague and other killers ravage the native population, the Aztec Empire was undergoing a pandemic crises from these diseases by the time the Spanish arrived at Tenochtitlan.

>The Aztec were supposed to have elite fighters.
They did, but seems that they were determined to not kill the Spanish but to capture them so they could later sacrifice them. It's still not clear if the Aztecs fought this way only against the Spaniards for being an uncommon enemy or if it actually was the default Mesoamerican warfare.
Cortes himself was captured twice and rescued in retaliations at the expense of many lives.

>"The wheel of fortune now suddenly turned against Cortes, and the joyous feelings of victory were changed into bitter mourning; for while he was eager in pursuit of the enemy, with every appearance of victory, it so happened that his officers never thought to fill up the large opening which they had crossed. The Mexicans had taken care to lessen the width of the causeway, which in some places was covered with water, and at others with a great depth of mud and mire. When the Mexicans saw that Cortes had passed the fatal opening without filling it up, their object was gained. An immense body of troops, with numbers of canoes, which lay concealed for this purpose in places where the brigantines could not get at them, now suddenly rushed forth from their hiding places, and fell upon this ill-fated division with incredible fierceness, accompanied by the most fearful yells. It was impossible for the men to make any stand against this overwhelming power, and nothing now remained for our men but to close their ranks firmly, and commence a retreat. But the enemy kept rushing on in such crowds, that our men, just as they had retreated as far back as the dangerous opening, gave up all further resistance, and fled precipitately. Now the awful consequences of the neglect to fill up the opening in the causeway began to show themselves. In front of the narrow path, which the canoes had now broken down, the Mexicans wounded Cortes in the leg, took sixty Spaniards prisoners, and killed six horses."

>Cortes himself was captured twice
And almost captured again a couple times.

Also, the source of the previous account is The True History of the Conquest of New Spain, Chapter CLII

The Mexicas had a weird concept of warfare. For them war meant capturing enemies alive to later slaughter them in the top of their temples.
They also kidnapped people from the surrounding tribes for the same purpose, in addition to demanding tributes. So the Totonaca people hated the Mexicas so fucking much. Thats why Cortes enters Tenochtitlan with an alliance of 30 totonaca tribes, in addition to the Tlaxcaltecas, also vassals and enemies of the Mexicas. In total, 400 Spanish and 4000+ native allies entered the city.

>anything made out of metal they needed to import from the tarascans
wat

>The Mexicas
its just Mexica, no s needed

Spain was more advanced. But it's not akin to an alien race showing up with cannons that can open black holes and swallow up cities.

They had guns that would pierce even metal armor, thus not making a difference when it came to cotton armor.

And with a such a huge numerical difference, the Aztecs should have been able to just surround and beat the dust out of the spaniards.

Firstly, the Spaniards found allies in the Tlaxcalans and various other tribes who resented having to pay tribute to the Triple Alliance.

Secondly, diseases such as smallpox devastated the Aztecs (and most of the other indigenous groups): not only were most soldiers dying, but so were all the farmers and merchants that made waging war possible and sustainable. Society simply collapsed, making it an easy picking for the Spaniards and their Tlaxcalan allies.

>How could an empire with such a fearsome reputation get BTFO so bad?
because the dirty little secret that "muh colonialism" leftists like to gloss over is that the conquest of the Aztecs was closer to a slave rebellion and the native populace supported the overthrow of their Aztec oppressors.

All Mexicans that are alive today are the descendants of native collaborators who benefited from Spanish rule.

>And with a such a huge numerical difference, the Aztecs should have been able to just surround and beat the dust out of the spaniards.
don't quote me again if you're just gonna ignore the thread:

>The thrusting ability of the sword allowed the Spanish to maintain close formations and hold in chokepoints while the Mesoamericans attacked the frontlines in loose formations expecting to engage in the traditional personal combat

>seems that they were determined to not kill the Spanish but to capture them so they could later sacrifice them

spaniards had more experience in war logistics, tactics and strategics

>All Mexicans that are alive today are the descendants of native collaborators who benefited from Spanish rule.

dude people shit on the gauls for not being on the same level as the romans and they all at least had metal. The Aztecs were even further behind the Spanish than the Gauls were to the Romans.

>spaniards had more experience in war logistics, tactics and strategics
more like:

>They had horses, cannons and steel weapons and armor while the Mesoamericans were fighting with wooden weapons

the purepecha where the only other "large" native empire at the time, and they were the only ones capable to working a few soft metals like copper in large amounts, but they only made simple items like small figurines, needles, axes, fishhooks, wires, and various other tools

to date no such items have been found of Mexica origin

I recall that the Zapotecs and Mixtecs were expert metal-workers, and that even the Mexica couldn't compare to them in regards to that.

Pretty much this and this:

And what about the shitty tactic of:
- Do not kill your enemy, instead risk your neck trying to capture them
- Do not befriend any other tribes or nations, instead make them hate you

>All Mexicans that are alive today are the descendants of native collaborators who benefited from Spanish rule.
nigga........

>to date no such items have been found of Mexica origin
Here's an account of the Chinantecs of Oaxaca:

>"Cortes had heard of this weapon, and sent word to the Tchinantecs to forward him three hundred of such lances, from which however he desired they would take off the flint points and substitute a double one of metal, as they had abundance of copper in their country. The soldier who was despatched with these orders took a pattern of the point required with him. Cortes' wishes were readily complied with, and as the inhabitants of every township of that province set diligently to work, the lances were soon finished and they turned out most satisfactory."
(...)
>"The lances which Tovilla brought with him proved most excellent, and he immediately taught us how to use them, particularly against the cavalry."
- The True History of the Conquest of New Spain, Chapter CXVIII

I would have posted an account of Cortes mentioning the Aztec blacksmiths of Azcapotzalco, but I won't even bother.

>All Mexicans that are alive today are the descendants of native collaborators who benefited from Spanish rule.
You were doing good, till we get to this part. What kind of fucking education did you get as a child?

>Chinantecs
its just "Chinantec", no S is needed at the end

also their is no such thing as the "Aztec blacksmiths of Azcapotzalco"

the only metal workers in Mexica lands were from conquered regions, yet even then the Purepecha were far and beyond the largest producers of copper and brass objects in meso-america at the time

>- Do not befriend any other tribes or nations, instead make them hate you
It was far more related to Moctezuma's policy, practically all the Aztecs of the Valley of Mexico joined the Mexica.
Also this kind of stuff was not endemic to the Mesoamericans, there are many examples in Europe at the time.

Mesoamerican warfare was pretty impractical compared to the one in Old World I give you that.

>All Mexicans that are alive today are the descendants of native collaborators who benefited from Spanish rule.

>And with a such a huge numerical difference
Are you just going to ignore the 80-200 thousand Tlaxcala's that were on the Spanish side, or...

everyone always does

1. Aztecs were, just like the Inca's, very centralized, meaning that by cutting of its head; the body would fall; Spanish did cut off i the head, because they were welcomed into the most important city cuz of (3)
2. Spanish were fucking technologically advanced, OP is confirmed retarded for saying otherwise.
3. Spanish had luck in finding them at that moment; some kind of prophesy of a returning god, who happens to have a white skin & beard
4. Aztecs were in constant fighting with others in that area; the Spanish just made the fire hotter by helping the enemies of Aztecs
5. The fear factor: Aztecs had never seen some of the battle animals used by the Spanish.
6. Europe was in the early modern age in constant concurration with eachother; the Europe states made eachother stronger that way and thus gained a lot of militaire knowledge
Im probably forgetting more reasons, but this is a start

Think about it logically for a moment. We've all been taught that life expectancy among Indian slaves was atrocious, that working in the mines was practically a death sentence. So who would be sent to work in the mines? Who would be enslaved?
Logically those natives who had fought against the Spanish. It's far easier to enslave DEFEATED people than it is to magically overpower your native allies that out number you and capriciously enslave them instead.

Ergo those that are alive today are those who were not enslaved and sent to the mines, those who did not resist Spanish rule.

>3. Spanish had luck in finding them at that moment; some kind of prophesy of a returning god, who happens to have a white skin & beard
this belief needs to stop

Im just saying what I can remember, been long since I thought about this

> The Aztecs were supposed to have elite fighters
Yes they had, but they never went on open field.
The txacalteca however did battle the Spanish in Txacala and almost won, but upon seeing their strength they decided to side with them and turn on their Mexica opressors instead.
Also this fucking idiot of Moctezuma was into mysticism and shit, and when he knew of the Spanish he let them in thinking they were gods.
He was kept prisoner in his palace.
Meanwhile the people of Tenochtitlan raise in arms, the Spanish show them Moctezuma to try to pacify them, they instead stone him in the head and dies 3 days later.

Spanish now are on the run and are massacred in their escape.

The Mexica reorganize and try to negotiate with former vassal tribes with better tributary conditions, This is seen as a sign of weakness and negotiations fail.

So Mexicas now stuck in their lake-city, smallpox is running wild, and they destroy the bridges, so food cannot get in. The blockade will last 80 days.

The Spanish finally cut the only aqueduct that provided water to the city and wrecked the defensive Mexican rafts. Cuautemoc, the new tlatoani, refuses to surrender and everyone is BTFO. 240000 mexica died, about 50k of them died starved and some 67k in urban combat.

wow I cant even..... uh God.

look, thousands if not millions of natives died at the time of the conquest, and afterward. but there were still MILLIONS of them. understand that.

its not like in the U.S. where one injun gets a bad cough and then "whoosh" the who tribe is dead. over a million full blooded natives still live in Mexico, a large chunk of which are not nahua, and who's people never worked in mines, nor were even enslaved.

but really you think "All Mexicans that are alive today are the descendants of native collaborators who benefited from Spanish rule."

FUCKING THINK about the immigrant waves Mexico experienced in the last two centuries. Europeans and Asians who are in no way related to any natives lived and continue to live in Mexico.

and 2nd what about the many, many, many native tribes who never surrendered to the Spanish and continued fighting the Mexican army long after Independence? were they "native collaborators who benefited from Spanish rule"?

shit even me, im a purepecha indian and my people were slaughtered by the Spanish and reduced to farming in shitty rock filled foothills, and working in deadly silver mines.

but were my poverty stricken and malnourished ancestors "native collaborators who benefited from Spanish rule"?
because according to you, they were.

I was going to argue about genetics, population, and more, but this user beat me to it.

In the case of Tenochtitlan specifically, almost all of the nobility and young warriors died. The remaining survivors were mostly children that left in the following 3 days. The Txacalteca allies continued attacking the city even after it surrendered (they hated the Mexica so much).

Its false, its not the case

>its just "Chinantec", no S is needed at the end
Buzz off, the source itself says Chinantecs.

>the only metal workers in Mexica lands were from conquered regions

>"Cortes now, therefore, began to make active preparations for the siege of Mexico. He issued orders to all the townships which lay in the vicinity of Tezcuco, and were in alliance with us, for each of them to furnish him with 8000 copper points for our arrows, to be made after the model of our Spanish ones, of which some were sent them for that purpose. They were also to furnish an equal number of arrows, which were to be made from a wood particularly adapted for that use, and they received some of our Spanish arrows to work by. He allowed them eight days for the making and delivery of these; and indeed both the arrows and the copper points arrived at Tezcuco in the time specified. Our stock of these now consisted of 50,000 pieces, and the arrow points made by these people were even better than those we brought from Spain."
- The True History of the Conquest of New Spain, Chapter CXLVII

>also their is no such thing as the "Aztec blacksmiths of Azcapotzalco"

>"I will now, however, turn to another subject, and rather acquaint my readers with the skilful arts practised among the Mexicans: among which I will first mention the sculptors, and the gold and silversmiths, who were clever in working and smelting gold, and would have astonished the most celebrated of our Spanish goldsmiths: the number of these was very great, and the most skilful lived at a place called Escapuzalco, about four miles from Mexico. After these came the very skilful masters in cutting and polishing precious stones, and the chalchihuis, which resemble the emerald."

- The True History of the Conquest of New Spain, Chapter XCI

No more free (You)s unless you start citing your claims.

>6. Europe was in the early modern age in constant concurration with eachother; the Europe states made eachother stronger that way and thus gained a lot of militaire knowledge
I agree with everything else, but the Aztecs weren't alone in Mesoamerica, nor became an Empire by hugging trees.

- The Aztec ruling caste were a bunch of idiotic morons that believed that the Spaniards were gods (way to much into mysticism). No armed rebellion until the death of Montezuma and the rise of Cuauhtemoc and by that time, it was already too late.

- Unintentional biological warfare.

- The Aztecs were brutal to the basal kingdoms and other civs, making every single nation surrounding them willing to betray them. Because fuck those crazy bastards that raided me every single day.

- The technological difference between the Spanish and them was pretty big (steel, cavalry and canons were more useful than obsidian).

- Their concept of war was utterly retarded: Flower Wars.

The Aztecs were the most incompetent empire in the Americas.

>The Txacalteca allies continued attacking the city even after it surrendered (they hated the Mexica so much).

Well, they deserve it.

>Spanish weren't even that much more technologically advanced than the Aztecs

literally sailed across the Atlantic ocean

>The Aztec ruling caste were a bunch of idiotic morons
They all got controled by Moctezuma, so yeah. Still, Cortes arrived in in the same year Quetzalcoatl said he would come back and from the same direction.

>that believed that the Spaniards were gods
Not exactly, according to Francisco López de Gómara the priests waited for the year to end to prove that Cortes wasn't Quetzalcoatl. Only then the rest of the population disowned Moctezuma.

>- The Aztecs were brutal to the basal kingdoms and other civs, making every single nation surrounding them willing to betray them.
Not that different from Spain really, at some point the Spaniards literally were at war with all Western Europe at the same time:
-Portugal
-Berbers
-Italians
-Netherlands
-England
-France
-Ottomans
-German kingdoms

- Their concept of war was utterly retarded: Flower Wars.
It seems pretty impractical certainly, but. I also think they got overconfident.

>The Aztecs were the most incompetent empire in the Americas.
an incompetent empire wouldn't have managed this

>managed to beat steel equiped guys with guns and cavalry while fighting with sticks
>BTFO

>And with a such a huge numerical difference
yeah, there were 300 guys fighting for every Spaniard in the frontlines