Islam General discussion

Hadiths exist because although the word of god was complete with Muhammad's revelations not everything was transcribed in the level of detail that was shared orally in his time. At least that's what I think the excuse is.

What's really going on is that the Quran isn't accurately transcribed in its current state because "Umayyad doing Umayyad things" and hadiths are glorified op-eds but everyone is too deathly scared to say it.

Not depicting Muhammad through caricatures or drawings is pretty much one of the most universal beliefs among all sects of Islam so when a Westerner does it (always maliciously btw) they get pissed off. It's like how Americans get heated when a nig stomps on/burns an American flag. It's an insult to their way of life.

>Are people who drink, eat pork, or generally do not follow the quran still "real Muslims"?
Not according to the Quran, no.

>Not depicting Muhammad through caricatures or drawings is pretty much one of the most universal beliefs among all sects of Islam

But why? Muhammad is just a man.

>always maliciously btw

While I don't think that's true and you're injecting emotions into it, if an artist depicted Muhammad in an obvious good light would that be so bad?

...

Why are there so many satanists on Veeky Forums?

Because if you believe that the Quran is the word of god it says in it

And whatever the Messenger has given you - take; and what he has forbidden you - refrain from. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is severe in penalty.

Why are Libtards so accepting of Islam while ignoring how Islam has treated Zoroastrianism in Persia?

If it is the religion of peace why did the people practicing Islam genocide Zoroastrianism into near nonexistence?

>Why are Libtards so accepting of Christianity while ignoring how Christianity has treated Pagans in Europe?
>If it is the religion of peace why did the people practicing Chrsitianism genocide paganism into nonexistence?

Could have talked about Judaism but people would have thought of the third reich instead of constant persecution for 2000 years.

Liberals are very critical of Christian's and it's fundamentals. There isn't a movement that describes Chrisitianity as the 'religion of peace'; people still use the crusades as an excuse

Why are you such a fedora tipper?

It is not a religion of peace, it is a religion of submission to god. The one you call libtards, like any group with ulterior motive, will use whichever means to reach their end, appealing to a broader audience, much like how politician lied to win campaigns and such. Killing is not inherently bad, although genocide is an exaggeration. But killing a lot of people sends a quite clear message, no? Ultimately Islam comes first before other religions.

Hadiths are there to give more information about certain details that are too detailed or not that important to be put in the Quran. In some way the Quran can be seen as ''incomplete'' but it covers all the vital subjects in life that it's not seen as incomplete.
For example: if children are allowed to play in a mosque or not is a topic that is not discussed in the book and a very minor thing which hadiths cover.

Hadiths usually also only give extra information about an already discussed topic in the Quran.

I see, but what legitimacy do they have? The word of God isn't questionable but human words are.

Also
>Quran can be seen as "incomplete"
Please be careful with your words.

People say Islam is a religion of peace because other force them to do so. It seems not obvious enough to some people, hence why they say it.
Everyone consider christianism to be a religion of peace

>But why? Muhammad is just a man.

Not him, but that's why they don't allow depictions of him. Islamic theology views images as things that have the potential to be worshipped thus causing idolatry, and since Muslims don't worship Muhammad (though they do revere and respect him), they don't make images or idols of him.

But they do worship Allah, but to make an image of Allah is frowned upon because 1, it implies that the artist is saying he knows what Allah looks like, and 2, because the worship would be given to the image itself, not directly to the concept of Allah.

Forgot to cover this, also

>if an artist depicted Muhammad in an obvious good light would that be so bad?

It's just that it's a taboo in Islamic cultures is where the offense would come from. I don't think the Qur'an directly says to kill image makers no matter what kind of image they're making.

But the Quran is clear about not drawing Muhammad, but the Quran also only applies to Muslims, so if a kaffir or infidel were drawing Muhammad in a good light, really the only thing Muslims are allowed to do is just distance themselves from that person.

Here's a direct question that I feel is danced around a bit:

If Sharia law were to be implemented in, say, India, would Hindus, being idolaters, be put to death or just made to pay jizya?

As far as I'm aware, jizya is only applicable to Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians.

French Muslim here.

I don't think anyone would feel offended if someone drew a portrait of the prophet, but as someone said earlier the only drawings that are known are insulting.

Look at the Jesus & Buddha Manga, I wouldn't be offended if that was this kind of representation that was shown instead of what we usually see (don't even want to describe it)

What usually happens, and has happened, is Hindus get determined to be People of the Book, so they would pay jizya. Technically the term only applies to Christians, Jews, and Sabians and only later was determined to include Zoroastrians.

>Not depicting Muhammad through caricatures or drawings is pretty much one of the most universal beliefs among all sects of Islam
shias have photos of muhammad like painted ones.

All hadiths come straight from very close friends of the prophet that witnessed the events and sayings themselves most of them were even caliphs.

>is Hindus get determined to be People of the Book
How do they get determined as that? What specific fatwa applies here? And also could independent muslim nations ignore it and enslave and kill them anyway(which has also happend)?

And none of them were deemed as sacred as a prophet, and being the ones acting on what they understood of what was revealed, and the fact that people are biased to perception not reflecting reality at times, it can be evident how the religion can be used as a political mechanism that approves certain hierarchical machinations to facilitate powerbase and reinforce it through dictated cultural norms.

Rarely a person is sacred in Islam to prevent any form of a person being praised more than or equally than Allah (God). If you praise another god or a person as much as you praise Allah you are considered a ''shirq'' which is the highest type of sinner one can be.

I don't know the details, just that Hindus, Zoroastrians, and Buddhists were extended the status of dhimmi. Sure, Muslim nations could genocide the Hindus, but that is politically unfeasible.

Honest question and I hope you can answer without getting offended. Why is mohammed forgiven for tribal wars, slaves, statutory rape, capital punishment, etc. in the current time? It seems other deities such as jesus and buddha practiced peace during their "lifetime". Muhammed himself was actively doing things that you must see as wrong during his lifetime.

Another one; Is it your belief that you were chosen by allah to be born somewhere, into a family that happens to be muslim? What I mean to say is are you chosen to be muslim or do you just think it was down to chance?

Also, did muhammed say he was the final prophet or is it possible that there will be another?

So why does that extend to non-muslims?

Doesn't give them any legitimacy imo. They don't know and even the prophet didn't know what was right.

1. Wars were in defense against attackers. Rapes from the prophet is not proven by anyone and I highly doubt it, capital punishment and slaves were common back then, doesn't make it okay now. He is not a deity, he's a prophet, a man, we don't worship him and he obviously didn't have a perfect life, same for Gotama btw.

2. I think it's both, it was down to chance but God could have decided otherwise if he wanted. I won't say chosen though as I don't think we're any better than people of other beliefs.
From a purely religious point, the quran says that God sent prophets to each and every human society, so every religion should be true, just adapted to that said society.

3. Yes and no. Muhammad is supposed to be the last prophet, but before the end of times, Mahdi and Jesus will come on earth.

As a Muslim I feel insulted by the way they depict the prophet and what they makes him say because it is also an attack on my own beliefs. Those who answer with violence to this are just stupid fuckers though.

Assuming a person is not born into a Muslim family, what do you think most greatly influences their chosen branch of Islamic belief?

The first version of the Qur'an they read? Their local mosque's denomination?

Seems like choosing your own path without guidance would be most difficult.

There's only one Quran...
To me it seems like you don't need guidance in faith as God will make everything clear.

I think what will influence the most are both the culture and the environment, exemple:

-I'm Tunisian, Muslim but consider hijab not mandatory and think some sins once in a while aren't a big deal since God is merciful. Women are considered equals and we talk normally, kiss each others to say hello
-A Saudi would consider me a kuffar, stone me and most Tunisian women.
-a morrocan would probably do sorcery so that he succeed in what he does
-a Sudanese would consider music forbidden

You're correct, I shouldn't have said "version", but there are different... I can't think of a word so I'll call it "editions", where a certain group might write an introduction pertaining to their belief, etc.

Culture and environment definitely make sense, but things get more complicated when the person's born into a non-Muslim family in a completely secular country, like Canada.

Well I think the best thing would be to go to the closest mosque or Islamic center and ask questions and guidance, without ever losing track of what YOU think and consider right or wrong, if you agree with him then you could ask him to recommend you an edition.

To me, if someone truly wants to convert for good reasons, God will help him anyway. I'd just avoid anything coming from Iran or Saudi Arabia (which is pretty hard because they're literally everywhere now)

Since Buddhists don't technically worship Buddha images (or in the case of Theravadins, don't even worship Buddha as a god, just revere him), would Islamic doctrine classify them as something other than idolaters, or would it not matter?

Has this distinction ever been made?

>and he obviously didn't have a perfect life, same for Gotama btw.

*until he became a Buddha.

I think depending on which sect you ask, Gotama was a pretty holy guy before his enlightenment, or he was just a regular person.

Being a Theravadin, I believe he was essentially a normal human before his enlightenment, but there's so much that even a (near-)future Buddha is capable of, I'm not throwing anything out the window entirely.

Do you think a Mosque would be willing to accommodate a guest if he was upfront in that he only wanted to visit in order to learn about Islam? As in, not looking to convert, but to learn?

There's an Islamic center right across the street from where I work and I don't even know if the Imam knows English well enough to give a sermon that I would understand.

Also, with me working every Friday morning, is there any other time Muslims meet at the mosque?

I agree with you but Alevis are literal heritics my friend

Persians converted willingly and the Parthian goverment reacted by killing converts on mass. This is when the Rashidun stepped in and started to do the same to the Zoroastrianists.

Yes certainly. A mosque is not owned by anyone but Allah, so the Imam or the people there have no right to tell you to go away.

What is the afterlife described as in Islam?

Would you feel offended if he was depicted in a positive light?

A giant orgy. One of the reasons it's difficult to believe that Islam is anything other than a fabrication. It shows a massive lack of imagination when your idea of heaven is just getting to have sex with virgins every day.

Don't speak as though you know the answer when it is painfully clear you have no clue what you are talking about.

So you're saying the Quran doesn't describe the afterlife as having a harem of women whose hymens continually regenerate? You should try reading it some time

That is part, but not the whole. Describing it as such is just insulting.

So wait, in Muslim heaven dudes get a harem of slutty everlasting virgins. What do women get though?

You're better off just learning about it on the internet. Muslims lie about their religion.

It should be insulting because the entire idea that sex means anything in heaven is fucking stupid.

>mfw read the koran expecting Sufi metaphysics and instead got terrible bible fanfic

Anyone studying Arkoun or Abu Zayd? How relevant are they? I'm not a Muslim, but when I studied philosophy the two figures were discussed.

There was a satirical cartoon someone made about this, where a suicide bomber has reached heaven and is enjoying getting to commit all the sins he wasn't allowed to on earth, like sleeping with all the houri and drinking heavenly alcohol. Unsuprisingly an activist who shared it online got murdered for it, when he was already getting prosecuted for it. Really brings into relief how thin skinned the religion is in general when everything is considered such a grave insult and insults are met with death.

Read about the giant Buddha in Afghanistan. Off by memory the leader of the Taliban would have left it alone had NGOs offered to give more support to actual people, but since they wanted to ensure the integrity of the Buddha he destroyed it.

I'm sorry it didn't work out for you. If you want to read on Sufi metaphysics read on Ibn Arabi

Arkoun has some following in the French Islamic world (French Muslim colonial states).Though he hasn't made that much of a big impact in the English world. Can't speak about Abu Zayd

Sure, no one will force you to convert and will be happy to answer your questions, especially nowadays.

But yeah they speak English if they live there...
Don't know where you live but in France they do sermons in French.

Not at all, i am not allowed to depict him but that's only me, others can do what they want for all I care.

>i am not allowed to depict him but that's only me, others can do what they want for all I care.

I have a feeling that some butthurt radical will get offended.

It's time to worship Jesus, lad

>Worshiping human
next you're gonna tell me to start worshiping his mother and their various idols

Not a mere human, but the God-man
>next you're gonna tell me to start worshiping his mother and their various idols
I want you to be a Christian, not a Catholic

Everyone is allowed in a mosque , my mosque often gets alot of homeless people who come and stay for hot tea. Go in and do whatever feels right to you, my wife found Islam the same way, she was a Christian before.

>my wife found Islam the same way, she was a Christian before.

Interesting. Has she noticed her life has gotten more difficult, perhaps socially?

No not at all, we live in Canada and people are really nice about it, her friends don't care and treat her the same, at work she's treated with respect but she told me funny stories of when she first wore a light headscarf lol. Honestly she eased into it easier than I thought. Do you have any specific thing you want to ask?

Well I suppose it's different down here in the states. How long did it take her to adjust to all the new rules?

Two religions who worship the same God fighting over the terms and conditions - and failing to remember that both faiths punish those who murder non belligerents.

The problem is that the terms murder and non-belligerents have highly flexible definitions according to both.

A muslim being offended? What next?

Not too long to be honest. She didn't drink much alcohol before so It was easy for her to stop drinking wine, and when it came to eating halal food all she had to do was give up pork which she didn't eat much anyway. Although she did replace her bacon with halal turkey bacon lol. It took her five to six weeks. I would like to think me being a good cook helped to make it easier for her. But my wife is the same amazing women as before. She just doesn't drink wine now and doesn't est pork products. She prays when she can and goes to Friday prayer with me. She absolutely loved fasting in Ramadan and found it really fun. And what exactly is different in the states? People are nice there too I'm sure.

>To illustrate the stone-age attitudes that persist in Saudi Arabia, a women was beheaded for “Practicing witchcraft and sorcery”. What she has done was fool people into giving her money, claiming to thus be able to cure their illneses.
howardgamble.com/2011/12/13/woman-beheaded-in-suadi-for-practicing-witchcraft-and-sorcery/

What does this have anything to do with what I said. I absolutely disapprove of such an llogical act though. And do not support them.

>People are nice there too I'm sure.

See what I mean?

>really the only thing Muslims are allowed to do is just distance themselves from that person.
Or hang them.

Behold! We said to the angels: “Prostrate unto Adam”: They prostrated except Iblis (Satan): He said, “Shall I prostrate to one whom Thou didst create from clay?” He said: “Seest Thou? This is the one whom Thou hast honoured above me! If Thou wilt but respite me to the Day of Judgment, I will surely bring his descendants under my sway – all but a few!” (17: 61–62)

No I really don't lol. Sorry I'm a tired.

>Isn't Islam just a shittier Christianity?
Its basically Christianity Mk.2 - It has all of the fiery anger and outraged indignity of pre-reformation Christianity.

However, Christianity had a reformation, and that led to the accepting and tolerant society that we now live in.
We passed through a renaissance and the enlightenment which reinforced moral values in the west and promoted a new desire to improve the lives of all people through science, mathematics, philosophy etc...

>Whats a convincing argument for Islam being a better choice of religion?

Well, logically, there really isn't one. Unless you really, really, need an overbearing form of control in your life. The Koran steals from its 400 year old predecessor, the bible, constantly and in many shifting manners. Ultimately it is a faith which worships the same deity but with much more concentrated jealousy and immediate fury than any other religion on earth.
Its rules are extremely taxing on the freedoms of the adherent, especially for women. It demands a constant and unflinching devotion to an unseen entity with severe penalties for any who, even for a second, question the faiths direction or politics.

What are the theological and philosophical differences between Christianity and Islam?

Christians believe Jesus is divine, co-existent and co-equal with God the Father. That he sacrificed himself to cleanse humanity of sin and allow them passage into the Kingdom of Heaven. Christians believe the only way to be saved is to accept Christs sacrifice on behalf of you.

Islam believes that Jesus is just one in a long line of prophets. Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and ending with Muhammad, the final messenger of God (Allah) who gave humanity the final and true revelation of God, whereas the teachings of all previous prophets had been corrupted. Muslims believe there is one God, indivisible and the path to salvation is performing more good deeds than bad, and on the day of judgement the good and bad deeds of every person will be weighed on a scale and they will either be saved or damned according to which is greater

Jesus denied equality in knowledge with angels much less God the Father while the Quran includes Jesus, the virgin birth and the Holy Spirit; if Islam is a heresy then so is Mormonism.

Well yeah. There aren't too many mainstream Christians who would deny Mormonism being heresy. They think Jesus was an alien. I think believing in the Nicene creed is a decent baseline for defining what is a true Christian.

Which version of Christianity would you not consider heretical because Mitt Romney, a US presidential nominee is Mormon and JFK was Roman Catholic, both controversial.

Catholics aren't Christian

t. retard American protestant

Back to your megachurch cletus

King James Bible
Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.

Protestants aren't Christians

New International Version
No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval.

this shit is adorable and fascinating to me

The "Catholics aren't Christian" guy isn't even a Christian himself. It's just an atheist who tries to derail every thread into denomination wars

What the flying fuck are you talking about. The Parthians were overthrown by the Sassanids hundreds of years before Islam was even conceived.

The reason the Arabs wiped out the Persians is because of cultural enmity, nothing to do with religion or revenge. Like how Koryos and Japs hate each other.

>Since the Quran is the word of God, perfect and complete, what is the point of hadiths?

Because the Koran tells you to follow Muhammad's example and his life/ "example" is only known through the hadiths

Well then the Qur'an isn't complete then is it?

it's inherently illogical my man because the truth value of its contents is False

daily reminder that more people died in the crusades than the holocaust

it's funny that you mention your example, because most christians would be offended and probably some of the crazy ones from mississippi or somewhere would go and try to kill the artist or something

It's probably the messiah trolling us

How many people were murdered over Jesus Christ Superstar and Godspell?