Martial Arts

what happens when a European loses his weapon? he has to either box or wrestle. What happens when two plate-armored Europeans fight? They wrestle each other until one of them is pinned and stabbed through a weak point, usually the neck, face, thigh, or joints.

Wrestling is a martial art.

>Finally being correct on Veeky Forums, on Veeky Forums nonetheless
That's one strike off the bucket list

Knights often yielded
In some accounts knights would be specifically taken and ransomed off

Not all grappling is the same though I agree the definition is too narrow

Boxing and Archery are not martial arts. Boxing is just the way humans fight instinctually. And archery is a sport or hobby.

>Boxing is how humans fight instinctually
You have to be taught how to punch correctly
Instinctual human fighting would be:
Run towards the person
Flail
Tackle
Hit the other person with your hands once he's on the ground

>Boxing
>Wrestling
>Fencing
>HEMA in general

>these look like a drunk street brawl

kill yourselves you fucking weeaboos

>certainly can't compare with lifestyles that are arts such as kung fu that requires tremendous devotion

Any martial art can (and often does) require tremendous devotion to gain anything from, there is nothing inherently superior about eastern martial arts in this regard. Indeed, the infatuation we have with eastern martial arts nowadays seems to be deeply misguided by the Cult of Bruce Lee, and, more broadly, a permeating subculture of Asiaphilia.

Relax mi amigo,
No one said drunk street brawl, it was A brawl.
And rules in those sports prevent you from doing somethings

>they were something hardly more than a brawl.
What do you mean by this?

>certainly can't compare with lifestyles that are arts such as kung fu that requires tremendous devotion, concentration and endless repetition and self improvement is the core of it
Okay this is an obvious troll. Kung Fu is a complete horseshit cult/martial art.

>boxing is just the way humans fight instinctually

I can tell you that the typical person can't throw a punch worth shit, let alone use proper footwork to dodge efficiently - someone fighting "instinctually" will try to tackle the other person first thing

>archery is a sport

Not an argument. So is Karate, Judo and Taekwondo.

Not him, but kung fu still have alot of interesting stuff in it. Though he is totally wrong about things like wrestling and Hema

>Europe has/had no codified systems of fighting

Are you fucking serious?

Kung Fu is pantomime. The idea it is useful in a real fight or combat situation is frankly embarrassing chang.

It's not supposed to be used in real fights
Think of it as doing art with your body

Fencing. And its antecedent roots, Spanish and Italian schools of swordsmanship are martial arts.

This. Asian martial arts are useless masturbatory excuses for shallow chauvinism, see Ip Man.

Name one Kung Fu fighter in MMA.

It was used in real fights, heck there are still traditional kung fu guys involved in Chinese wrestling, push hands and sanshou.

Do you count shanshou as a form of MMA?

In any case I never said modern kung fu was suitable for limited rules competition, just that in included some interesting techniques and concepts.

I'd make an exception for judo. It's useful. Karate, Kung Fu etc are all garbage though and the practitioners are snake oil salesmen like Bruce was.

Why do these theads turn into mudslinging between Euroboos and weeaboos?

European and Asian fighting traditions have more in common than not

Karate and Judo are definitely not useless martial arts, Karate (depending on the style) is still one of the most effective martial arts out there. Many fighters in the UFC come from a Karate background and use it in their style as well

Because my dad is better than your dad is the typical line of thoughts that govern this kind of thread.

Judo = Greco-Roman wrestling with gis

>Karate (depending on the style) is still one of the most effective martial arts out there. Many fighters in the UFC come from a Karate background and use it in their style as well
Eh, karate isn't the worst choice but I think boxing or Muay thai would be better.

So Veeky Forums is full of people with father issues?

>Many fighters in the UFC come from a Karate background

Many is an exaggeration. And I can't really think of any who have been that successful aside from Wonderboy and Lyoto. A bunch of guys and girls technically cite karate as early influences, but you never really see it evidenced in their fights - GSP for example.

For anyone interested in what kung fu was like to the first westerners to really study it in an academic fashion I offer this article.

kogenbudo.org/i-htm/

>Europeans don't have martial arts
>What is fencing
>What is boxing
>What is Savate
>What is wrestling

humans don't "fight instinctually", there nothing instinctual about it. We don't fight naturally, we flight
We're pack animals that stay together for strength and run the fuck away when we're alone. We have to fight our instincts in order to actually stand and fight, the only real exception to this is two males fighting over a female, but the instinct there is to tackle, pin, choke, and groundpound. When I was a kid and I got into fights, we'd just tackle each other and go for choke holds because that's natural.

The human fist is weak, fragile, and clearly not intended for combat. If you've ever punched someone in a fight well, you'd know that you watch away from it with a fractured or broken finger even if you win, because even successful punches are damaging your fingers. Punching is definitely not natural, especially considering you can't really do it effectively unless you're buff, and natural humans aren't buff, they're extremely thin.

Wrestling and boxing require training, practice, lots of working out, and pain tolerance for every time you damage your hand during a successful punch. None of it is natural, our bodies were not built for close quarters combat, it's why we hunted with throwing spears and kept our distance from prey until it was in a weakened state. Our bodies are so naturally weak that even small apes are leagues more powerful than us. Looking at a baboon you'd never guess that tiny little ape is actually three times as strong as you are because unlike you, his body actually is built for fighting.

We still have the instincts, we tend to fight like weak apes. we (poorly ) grapple and use big overhead hammer fists

>overhead hammer fists

exactly, because this is hitting people with your hand, not your fingers like a traditional punch. "The jab," the cornerstone of boxing, is certainly not natural

many striking arts use open handed strikes for that reason

No, father issues means we don't claim our dad can beat your dad, we don't believe in the strength or masculinity of our father because it wasn't properly expressed or shared with us.

That is a questionable assertion, and in any case even if we cant trace something back to war training doesnt mean it is any such thing in its current form. modern fencing has almost nothing to do with functional swordwork and wrestling and boxing do not consider weapons at all.

If we are going by that admittedly pedantic definition, most popular Asian martial arts are not really martial arts ether. The guy who created that definition called most of them civilian fighting arts

bumping with actual content about historical martial arts

youtube.com/watch?v=J0mo4CR7qJk

European civilians were allowed to carry weaponry(sometimes not swords though), so basically nobody would go outside their house without a dagger or a shortsword, from a duke to a peasant.

Hell, there are even surviving treatises with sickle combat;

youtube.com/watch?v=97neHuFfPLI

>Okay this is an obvious troll. Kung Fu is a complete horseshit cult/martial art.
I can see where you're coming from but that is just ignorant. First off "kung fu" is a very wide term. Second even the most asp accepted martial arts can practised ii n a stupid way (watch black and white footage from muay thai). Third the cultural revolution and introduction of fire arms changed the context of thr practicioner a lot. There is no way to tell what the original styles were like.
The shaolin styles laid ground for other arts like karate which developed to a crane kick knocking out vitor belfort and randy couture.

short documentary on the origins of kendo

youtube.com/watch?v=YKyj7-uxoIs

youtube.com/watch?v=EwQGqTfM06o

Romans, unlike greeks, looked down on physical sports and I guess everyone inherited that attitude.

Just wanna clear out one thing for everyone in this thread: Martial Arts =/= Martial Techniques.

only fencing has a slight bit of art in it

Here is Alexander C Bennett thesis about the emergence, evolution and waning of kenjutsu and then rising, transformation and nationalists roots of kendo. Bennett is himself a 7th dan kendoka. The thesis is still pretty easy to follow if you are a little bit knowledgeable with japan's culture and history.

ir.canterbury.ac.nz/bitstream/handle/10092/6869/Thesis_fulltext.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

And here's an old video about early kendo schools and a peak at Jigen-ryu kata training, which isn't very remote to what's done nowadays.
youtube.com/watch?v=YjnJG75s0pM

thearma.org/essays/G&WinRF.htm#.VAO8Ddm9LCR

Wrestling has always been the dominant martial art. It has a long history of dedicated, effective training methods and disciplined practitioners. It can be easily practiced and a good wrestler can dictate where a fight ends up. There's a reason why soldiers everywhere, in all of history trained in some form of grappling/wrestling.

>Why do people who were not forbidden weapons not abandon them?

>Why European civilization doesn't have...
Grammatically incorrect, it should be
>>Why doesn't European civilization have...
or
>>Why does European civilization not have...

Or even:
>>European civilization does not have...
>>Why?

I thought his explanation of the decline of kenjutsu here was a bit simplistic, but this was obviously made for a popular audience rather than academics are experienced martial artists

I would also question whether the schools they picked are the best reps for koryu kenjutsu shinai shiai. I understand many schools are hesitant to publicly show that training But I can think of one or two schools like maniwa nen ryu that would put on a much better show.

Maniwa nen-ryu use of the fukuro-shinai is quite different to what the 18-19th centuries school did with shinai and bogu though.
Also, much better show for what purpose exactly? Even internal shinai shiai in the Itto-ryu descendants isn't there for show.

No punching isn't really instinctual at all. Humans and pretty much any animal similar to us go for tackles and chokes/ claws or straight for vitals with claws and shit.

Kangaroos kick if possible from a proper distance but are really willing to strangle/choke other roos if close an do so with ease or just clawing you. clawing/ tearing beats punches because infects can become fatal and bleeding out, that's why knives are dangerous

youtube.com/watch?v=Jt1C9qmuh_g
youtube.com/watch?v=FIRT7lf8byw

Badn word choice, what I mean is the shinai shiai of that school is very impressive to watch and would leave a positive impression with both those who practice swordsmanship and those who dont.

This documentary is very much about entertainment even if the arts it shows are not

Oh and bad understanding, you were twice talking about the french video right? I thought you were talking about the thesis...

I agree that Maniwa Nen-ryu is quite striking to see and hear, both in their particular kata practice and shiai like stuff (or even padded kata practice), Jigen-ryu without the characteristic enkyo kiai heard feels a little bit mundane (which is quite crazy given how special this school looks like)... But yeah, the description is completely off, they even say that the jigen-ryu practitioners are priests, which is plain ridiculous of course.

No no, I was talking about this

I like Jigen ryu though many people think its a joke when they first see it.

>Boxing and Archery are not martial arts.
>And archery is a sport or hobby
Except they are very much martial arts and you have to rigorously train to be good at them. Historically in both East and West they even have names designating them as such. And even their practitioners have designated titles
>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_boxing
>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyūdō
>Boxing is just the way humans fight instinctually.
Then why do humans who don't know shit about fighting and have never trained "instinctually" suck ass

because they actually fought and killed people over in europe instead of dance around like ninnies in asia with their "art".

Modern fencing just looks like an extremely minimalistic simulation of fighting. To the point where it can't even be called a martial art, or even an art.

Comparing fencing to martial arts would be like comparing a water gun fight to the Battle of Stalingrad.

Did everyone in this thread conveniently forget about the olympics ?

Wrestling, boxing and pankration are all martial arts. Through competition they develop techniques which are just as efficient as the ones the Chinese developped.

You realize European sword arts were structured virtually the same as Asian ones?

>>Euro martial arts aren't an art, they're fairly straightforward and look something akin to brawl or just swinging Willy nilly

fuck off with your eastern mysticism, boxing and wrestling are incredibly complicated and technical

>If anything in this is wrong feel free to respon and tell me
>weapons were often banned outright
There were often weapons bans, But the upper class were often still allowed to own weapons. Other bans were just bans in name only. the extent to which you're implying weapons were banned is otherwise a meme
>fascilitating the use of farm tools,
Also a meme. Weapons like kama, and other scythe weapons as well as other weapons commonly said to be "farm tools" were seen as proper weapons, even since their inception. Ancient people/warriors also differentiated between these tools for farming and actual weapons. They had scythes for cutting plants, and scythes for cutting throats
>Euro martial arts aren't an art, they're fairly straightforward and look something akin to brawl or just swinging Willy nilly
See below, there were names for these arts, they were seen as martial traditions proper,and their practitioners even had specific titles akin to 'Karateka' or 'Judoka'
>European weapon martial arts are 90% of the time gleaned from outdated manuals from the 14th-15th centuries; they're pretty techniques in them and some skilled practitioners will occasionally show them off on the tube
Go take a HEMA class
>asian buddhists also value health and physical fitness, the shaolin monks (yes the same ones from the Kung fu flicks) originally developed rigorous exercises so they can stay and shape and meditate upon the mysteries of Buddhism or what not
Kung Fu predates Buddhisms arrival to China and the various styles of Shaolin Kung Fu were either already practiced styles, styles brought to the temple, styles based on ther styles with a Buddhist/Shaolin touch. Even the myth that Bodhidarma came to the Shaolin Temple is evidenced by both ancient and modern scholars to be just that, a myth. And it's even evidenced he never went to China at all.
>(cont.)

>(cont.)
>Kung Fu is pantomime. The idea it is useful in a real fight or combat situation is frankly embarrassing chang.
>This. Asian martial arts are useless masturbatory excuses for shallow chauvinism, see Ip Man.
>Karate, Kung Fu etc are all garbage though and the practitioners are snake oil salesmen like Bruce was.
I'd bet money all of you have never practiced martial arts in your lives and your comments are so retarded they have to be bait and it's not even good bait
>It's not supposed to be used in real fights
They were and chinese martial artists even took part in wars. Your also talking about the term "martial arts" user. Nearly all of them came from from the battlefield or are linked to styles/techniques used there. Also pic related.

*I meant to post See and not "See below"

pssh stupid gaijin
any monkey could pull this off
youtube.com/watch?v=z5rtp8guIZo

>Kung Fu is pantomime
Unarmed combat was meant for conditioning not the battlefield.

>They were and chinese martial artists even took part in wars.
This greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com/2015/12/the-ghost-faced-warrior-monks-of.html

I usually think of boxing and wrestling as martial sports. They teach skills useful for fighting, but unless your training them in something like an MMA gym they are geared towards their own sport and rule set

is a martial sport the same as a martial art: a system to prepare people for combat? that depends, in this case you could say they are a subset

What do you mean by "combat" though? An unarmed street fight? A medieval battle?

How many times are we going to have this damn thread?

Was Bruce Lee a charlatan?

He seemed kind of arrogant to me.

I like Jackie Chan though, he seems like a funny guy.

Yeah he probably was

Both of those are types of combat

After reading all these posts Im surprised and disappointed Veeky Forums is so autistic on this topic.

Unarmed martial arts was practiced around the world for sport, strength/conditioning, but primarily so they could defend themselves and kill their enemy in case they lost their weapon in combat. Obviously not ideal because you never want to lose your weapon but shit happens. Unarmed Martial Arts is to help a soldier keep fighting rather than losing his weapon and getting caught with his pants down. Idk how the fuck this meme that "hand-to-hand combat wasnt meant for the battlefield" shit got started

Best example of Martial art turning into a sport is Jiu Jitsu and Judo, along with Karate and Kung Fu practicing katas (forms)

>along with Karate and Kung Fu practicing katas (forms)
Them practicing kata is a form of sportification for you...?

its debatable but personally, yes i consider it a sport. Is ballet considered a sport or an art?

some had to hand combat is definitely for off the battlefield. you dont box with someone in armor. and armored grappling always assumed the other guy was armed and you probably were too.

The solo kata of kung fu and karate were always a thing, though they were probably less emphasized in the past, especially as aesthetic form. from what information is available chi gung (kiko) and two man drills were far more prevalent in the past. In this regard they are closer to other martial arts in places such as mainland Japan, India and Europe than they often appear today.

Traditionnal styles used a lot of forms in China and Japan, it's certainly true for Japan at least.
How come more kata devolve into sportification?
>yes i consider it a sport
What is this "it" you consider a sport?
Ballet would more likely be an art than a sport but what does it have to do with anything really?
Many ex-ballet dancers turned out to be very good martial artists btw...

Boxing and wrestling are martial arts. The difference is that these are marketed more as sports than Martial arts per se.

Furthermore western martial arts rose and fell with the times, the far east kept their martial arts alive through the years as part of their culture and not necessarily a sport.

To add to what other anons said: hitting somebody with a weapon, such as a stick or a stone, is much more natural for a human than punching. Holding a solid object and hitting somebody with it is something a baby can do instinctually. Punching somebody with a fist and dealing actual damage without getting your hand broken requires serious training.

You're right but you're thinking medieval warfare. For roman-greco boxing you have to remember they didn't have heavy iron/steel armor.

>What is "it" ?

The competition of who can perform the best kata is what I consider a sport but outside of competition I say it's a an art. My question about ballet being an art or sport was my point all along, same applies for dancing and figure skating.

They had armor and trying to box with someone carrying a knife or a dagger or a shield would be insane compared to closing the distance and grappling

How samurai actually trained, aka what "traditional marital arts" actually look like

youtube.com/watch?v=mRfQjj8ltEg

And interesting discussion of that method of training and its history

youtube.com/watch?v=umoCLwng1r4

Bumping with some japanese greatsword bullying.
youtube.com/watch?v=qWtEBW8cmAo

OP, do you want -do or do you want -jutsu

-jutsu means your coach/instructor/sensei isn't goig to waste practice time focusing on developing you into a happy and productive member of scoiety. He just wants you to work on your technique and buid your stamina.

-do means he wants you to focus on your schooling and keep the neighborhood free of garbage and broken windows.

Practically all western martial arts fall in the -jutsu category.

how do you even define martial arts exactly

This school always seems so specialized to me: drawing a long sword in extremely close quarters might be useful but what about all the other situations your likely to be in?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_arts_manual#Historical_European_martial_arts

Boxing has all the hallmarks of a martial art. Different styles, blocking, stances, different types of blows with different pros and cons.

Saying it is how humans fight intrinsically is like saying Taekwondo is intrinsic because humans kick each other.

>Why European civilization doesn't have any martial arts compared to Asian civilizations that have long tradition of this?

there are over 200 major european martial arts manuals which survive, dated from between 1295 and 1800. there are multiple later examples too.

here are some examples of stances and techniques from a 16th century one, Paulus Hector Mair's "de arte athletica", compared to japanese schools of swordsmanship from the 17-18th century:

My understanding is this, it's good to know how to draw from a close situation as a constraint, if you have room, you'll still draw short and not expose too much of your arms, this is especially important with very long swords. They probably do the forms while seated just like in the basic iaido kata so that the cuts aren't given too wide and to strengthen the legs.
Those are kata, training forms, it doesn't mean that the waza, the actual practical techniques look exactly like this. There is a lot of little things in those kata that are very subtle, wrists movements, feet movements, all of those transfer directly when applying practical techniques.

We should consider that they only show the basic techniques, maybe they have more direct standing kata or stuff akin to tachi uchi no kurai, it's hard to know. Also, as of now, all of their practitioners also do Ono-ha Itto-ryu so it's more like specialized training.

i.33, Walpurgis. the oldest surviving manual, written around 1295-1305.
German, it contains more than 100 illustrations and a volume of text explaining processes for single-handed sword and buckler (round shield)

>here are some examples of stances and techniques from a 16th century one, Paulus Hector Mair's "de arte athletica", compared to japanese schools of swordsmanship from the 17-18th century:
There are four different european manuals in this picture (Mair, Talhoffer, Meyer, PPvD) and it's compared to kendo no kamae, not koryu.
Besides, there is more to a martial arts than basic stances... Two martial arts can have similar-ish stances but very different core principles and way to use them.