Tfw there is no end to Global Capital as Capitalism literally seeps into everything

Why do Marxists hand wave the entirety of economics as a discipline away as mere bourgeois apologetics even basic principles like supply and demand?

>Why do Marxists

Stopped reading right there. I am not a Marxist and I studied Economics and Econometrics for three years at University.

It's all a load of crap and anyone who has studied the graphs and models knows it's crap.

Capitalism is part of human nature friend

Bartering is a part of human nature*

Fixed that for you, retard.

Why does an Econ 101 pleb like you always come along and compare bartering to Capitalism? It's NOT the same thing, retard.

Capitalism works because it runs on the ignorance of the masses. That is not to say it is the consumer's fault, but that there are certain things that Capitalism has the ability to cover up and hide from most of the public. We don't see the real exploitation behind the products that we consume. The closest that we get is a few Chinese sweatshop jokes. It's just the very tip of the iceberg. The industrial prison complex and the war on drugs is also another example of capitalism at its finest.

At its very core capitalism is just the voluntary exchange of goods and services.
>industrial prison complex
>war on drugs

>either of these things being limited to governments that support capitalist economic policies

>morals
U be a fag and consume what your morals let you and ill consume the fuck I want?
Is that okay for you?

Tell me more.

Both are driven primarily for profits. Prisoners are the new slaves and drug charges are usually enough to get most people in.

>At its very core capitalism is just the voluntary exchange of goods and services.

Yes, that's called Bartering, retard. Not Capitalism.

Fucking brainlet.

Trying to make macroeconomic predictions is difficult because there are so many variables. This is actually a better argument against central planning than voluntary markets.
I think that for ideological reasons you overestimate the influence of private prisons and underestimate the incentives and influence of certain 3 letter government agencies to continue the war on drugs.

I guess this is the part where the leftist redefines a word and plays semantics games instead of making any meaningful points.

>ill consume the fuck I want?
>Is that okay for you?
Not him but we've established your choices affect and impact other people so why do you think you should be allowed to do whatever you want with your money?

You claimed Capitalism is human nature and you were corrected.

Capitalism is NOT simply defined as voluntary exchange of goods, retard.

Your argument is a naturalist fallacy and is reductive to a degree that is retarded.

In other words, go back to where you came from.

Not user, uit this just changes the op's words, capitalism is just very complex barter. One is just commonly used in smaller scale (barter).

When will you marxists off yourselves for the better of humanity already?

see
youtube.com/watch?v=vNhkYXhYSSs
and
bookzz.org/book/945309/26c1be

Capitalism is the private ownership of resources. You can not conduct individual voluntary exchanges of said resources without some amount of capitalism.

That is a rudimentary definition which leaves out the ability to own private business and privately own profits which employs an entirely new dynamic.

>When will you marxists

Stopped reading right there.

OP here, I am NOT this poster:

if that definition is sufficient, you can have capitalism (private ownership of ressources) without any voluntary exchange of these ressources.

Sure. But I never said that capitalism ONLY involves voluntary exchanges between two individual human beings.

use a trip if you're uncomfortable with people assuming some other person might be you.

>wääh wääh global capitalism sucks we need socialism btw im not a marxist ;)

kys

Where does it mention Socialism in the OP?

Are you 5 years old?

>use a trip if you're uncomfortable with people assuming some other person might be you.

Fuck off, retard. Just wanted to make it clear that I'm not an advocate of Yanis.

You were implying ONLY capitalism involves voluntary exchanges between two individual human beings.

What would you like to see instead of capitalism?

who are you an advocate of? suggest some books

So now you're acting all nice since you got btfo?

I haven't formed my own ideology yet but I know it is not Capitalism, Socialism or Communism. Nor is it Anarcho-Primitvism or Feudalism.

Hey, I'm always nice.

Right now, and throughout history, capitalism has been by far the best economic system. If you're going to bash it at least have something else you can replace it with.

If you're able to freely exchange things with other individuals then you're either a criminal participating in an illegal black market capitalist economy, or your economy is capitalist to some extent. Almost every economy falls under the definition of mixed.

what exactly is communism based on?
what exactly is capitalism based on?

Communism: An economy and society controlled completely by the elite, no free will, no freedom.

Capitalism: Based on freedom, fee will and voluntary exchange.

Communism is a political theory and not an actual economic system. The economic system derived from communism is socialism, and it's defined as public ownership of all property and resources. Whether "public" means controlled by a state, a union, or some other means is where socialist factions come in. Capitalism is an economic model where private individuals own property. It is not a system of governance and could be mixed with any system of governance that's not economy specific. The reality is that most modern economies are a mixture of state and private control over things.

privatize the government

>what exactly is communism based on?

A society in which the proletariat control the means of production and the society is stateless and moneyless.

>what exactly is capitalism based on?

Private ownership of goods, services, capital, property and the ability to exchange such things for profit.

Stop being ideological, retard. You're no worse than Communists.

>I haven't formed my own ideology yet but I know it is not Capitalism, Socialism or Communism. Nor is it Anarcho-Primitvism or Feudalism.

Not an argument.

1. democratic control of economic policy. Not by the state through central planning (which isn't democratic anyway), but instead internally in the economic institutions. If every corporation/company is steered by general assemblies controlled by participants and those meaningfully impacted by the corporation's decisions, then the economy is factually democratized.
2. the realization that commodifying goods (transforming public ones into privately owned ones, therefore making them tradable and subject to market mechanisms and unaccountable decision makers) is not always desirable and that there are goods where doing that is completely nonsensical (e.g. information).
2a. the knowledge about what a well-functioning, efficient market economy entails (many competing firms, well informed consumers, etc.) and that, for those goods which society chooses should be traded in market systems, policy be set in a way which increases these things, so that the privatization of goods can lead to the benefits we hope to get.

>fee will
Nailed it

Why not feudalism?

lmao

>capitalism demands cheap labor
>capitalist countries adopt open borders
>Africans flood in and ruin capitalist countries
>capitalism ends by a return to the stone age

>socialism demands localized forms of government to not be tyrannical
>small governments are vulnerable to violence from larger ones
>socialism always ends up tyrannical

Damn it, I was going to socratically drag this into making the commies and cappies tell me what it means for something to be good.

Well done, user. Your level-headed fact-based answering saved another thread. The kingdom of Veeky Forums thanks you.

OP here again.

I am watching this video and it is decent. Yanis is doing a good job so far of dispelling the axiomatic assumptions people make when they have a base level understanding of Economics.

So far, I would recommend it.

Because you can't stop it

>work in advertising
>want to fucking kill myself every day
Everyone who goes HURR DURR UR A COMMIE when you talk shit about capitalism is a fucking retard. Likely underage too or underemployed. Capitalism and modernity are just soul deadening moral and spiritual syphilis. If there was a viable alternative to it I would be there right now

More like global capitalism is how the bourgeoisie conquer the stars whilst the rest of us starve to death when there's literally no jobs left.

>If there was a viable alternative to it I would be there right now

Get a different job?

You're not in soviet Russia, you are free to peruse your dreams.

I don't think user is that much of an idiot that he doesn't know that. I think he's making a point that modern society sucks for reasons deeper than that he simply doesn't like his job.

>you are free to peruse your dreams.
Pull the other one.

You're free to pursue what you can afford.

This

>I don't think user is that much of an idiot that he doesn't know that.

I'm not so sure.

>You're free to pursue what you can afford.

If you are slave in a free western country you made yourself a slave.

This as well

>If you are slave in a free western country you made yourself a slave.
>free
>slave
The thing about capitalist society is it's neither fully free, nor fully slavery. It's a bizarre synthesis of both that you can never really escape, you'll always be in some form of bondage to someone else unless you either abandon civilization to live innawoods or miraculously luck into becoming top-level bourgeoisie.

Not to mention that doesn't even address my argument. It's just a platitude that you've pulled out of your arse.

BYURE
IDEOLOGY

>you'll always be in some form of bondage to someone else unless you either abandon civilization to live innawoods or miraculously luck into becoming top-level bourgeoisie.

A things live in abstract bondage to their requirements for their survival. This does not equate to actual bondage, which nobody lives under in a free society unless they put themselves there via their own poor decisions.

>Not to mention that doesn't even address my argument.

What is your argument? You seem to just be complaining about not being born wealthy.

You're ascribing philosophical platitudes of the human condition to Capitalism. Under what system of governance or economics could one ever truly meet your definition of freedom? Before you answer, ask yourself whether that system is truly realistic and sustainable for any reasonable length of time.

>Get a different job
Its not even the specific job. Basically The lifestyle that modernity has foisted on us is inescapable. Even if you went innawoods some guy in a high vis vest would fine you some day.
>If you are slave in a free western country you made yourself a slave.
All that Cold War "we the best" shit is comfy and its probably less of a mental burden believing that everything is a-ok if you really try super hard. But the reality is
>You are expected to work for barely anything and be grateful for the opportunity
>You are expected to put all other considerations aside in service of your job
>You are inescapably a part of a consumer society
And you have no idea how deep that really goes
>You are not allowed to feel differently
>You are expected to enjoy it or else you're a weirdo

>What is your argument? You seem to just be complaining about not being born wealthy

This is literally everyone who complains about capitalism lmao

>You are expected to enjoy it or else you're a weirdo
According to whom? Do you think you're the only snowflake who has an axe to grind with modern society or capitalism? The truth is that you're just bored. Get a fucking hobby or a fuck buddy.

>hurr durr ur just jealous ur not rich
I don't want money I want meaning in life. Man being a social animal means I can only ever find that through institutions. All institutions, industries and everything in between being behold to a profit margin means I am expected to be nothing more than a means to that end.

My gripe is not being able to be a bugman consumer. My gripe is not being able to find meaningful expression or authenticity.
>The truth is that you're just bored. Get a fucking hobby or a fuck buddy.
>You hate your life just distract yourself from that
Do you know why people have midlife crises? Its because they get to the halfway point in their lives and they realised they didn't do shit with it. They sat in some cubicle and went through the motions. When you spend 8 AM-5 PM 5 days a week with god knows what else on the weekend too everything else becomes a sideshow.

What a strange idea. Instead of caring and doing something about the things and institutions you spend 8 hours a day, 5 days a week with, one should try to distract oneself by engaging in meaningless distraction the rest of the time.

>mfw commiecucks will literally NEVER EVER create a stable prosperous society

Also who the hell are you that you love spending your life in service to some company? What do you do?

That's not what I'm talking about. Of course we're all bound to mortal bodies that need to eat, sleep, drink and will eventually die. But what I'm on about is the fact that in capitalist society you're in a perpetual state of subjugation to someone else.

I did also however mention that it's not fully slavery either, and this is because even if we must constantly have a master we a degree of freedom in choosing our masters. Unfortunately most bourgeoisie are very much alike in what you can expect from them.

>free society
>free
You keep using that word. And it's a big red flag that you've been drinking cold-war era Kool-Aid. You're not free when your survival hinges on renting yourself out to other people.

>What is your argument? You seem to just be complaining about not being born wealthy.
My argument is what I've been just outlining to you. You're just too much of a brainlet to comprehend it apparently.

Not to mention not being born wealthy is a perfectly justified thing to complain about when society rewards and punishes you based on how wealthy you are.
Deeply religious anti-industrial anarcho-monarchism.

So you hate your existence?

>You are expected to work for barely anything and be grateful for the opportunity

No you are expected to work for as much as you can get someone to pay you. If your labor is so worthless you find yourself in the above situation you should take steps to make your labor worth more.

>You are expected to put all other considerations aside in service of your job

Again, if you dislike who you work for go elsewhere. You are not owned by anyone but yourself.

>You are inescapably a part of a consumer society

You are free to do what you like with your money. Nobody is going to shoot you or arrest you for not buying things. You can even leave and join other societies if you really want to.

>You are not allowed to feel differently

What? So I get to kick in your head for feeling differently than me? Are the feels police on their way?

>You are expected to enjoy it or else you're a weirdo

Your entire post is such fucking whining. What I find amazing is you somehow think things would be better under a communist system.

Free market capitalism and individualism will always win.

>My gripe is not being able to find meaningful expression or authenticity.
This is completely mental. It's not anyone else's fault that you're a malcontent. I doubt you'd be able to "find meaning" in anything.
>Do you know why people have midlife crises? Its because they get to the halfway point in their lives and they realised they didn't do shit with it. They sat in some cubicle and went through the motions. When you spend 8 AM-5 PM 5 days a week with god knows what else on the weekend too everything else becomes a sideshow.
We have more options and opportunity than pretty much any group of people to ever exist. If you like cubicles, you can reasonably find a way to get into one. If you want to fuck off innawoods, it's totally possible. You just have to work for it. What is it that you actually want?

>Individualism
Do you know what a consumer society is cause I do that for a living lmao

I don't derive my sense of self from my occupation. If you hate what you do, do something else.
Did I not say realistic and sustainable?

>But what I'm on about is the fact that in capitalist society you're in a perpetual state of subjugation to someone else.

Who?

>I'm not going to tell you my argument, you're dumb!

That is totally realistic.

Eventually industrial capitalism is going to reduce itself to ruble and when civilization rebuilds we're not going to have the resources for another industrial revolution (at least not for another few billion years when we ourselves turn into fossil fuels).

We already nearly had that towards the end of the modern era, of course the Eternal Industrialist had to ruin the fun.

>Who?
My boss and his best buddy the state.

>What I find amazing is you somehow think things would be better under a communist system.
This is what I love you assume I must be a teen commie. I am not a commie, will never be one and have no sympathy for communism. I could yell at you for having this Were #1 go Reagan mindset but never mind. Everything you say can be summarised with your first point
>No you are expected to work for as much as you can get someone to pay you. If your labor is so worthless you find yourself in the above situation you should take steps to make your labor worth more.
I'm not a means to an end. I'm a human. I'm supposed to subvert my whole life to someone elses gains so that I can barely scrape by? I earn enough to live but *why live* if it is purely for the enrichment of someone else and I have to pretend the scraps are good enough to stave off suicide. People are fundamentally mindfucked today by modernity.

A big part of that is work and the nature of work. Have you ever seen that tired, baggy eyed, dye-blonde office manager who is always a fucking bitch? You know the 30 something rapidly becoming sterile and knows it who takes it out on you? Millions of those. Its a system that dehumanises you and then gives you a whole lot of shiny shit to distract you on your way to a graveyard. We can certainly get into the health problems associated with this lifestyle too if you want

You think a post-industrial reality is likely to happen soon, I got bad news for you son. What do you expect "anarcho-monarchism" to look like?

Isn't that just market socialism?

it's called wage labor, you might have heard of it.
It's essentially slavery, except you get to choose who your master is and you get off on weekends. And you're not owned, you're rented. There's a minimum rent below which it's illegal for your master to rent you, and he doesn't have full jurisdiction over you since he doesn't fully own you. In everything else, institutionally, it's pretty identical.
In some places of the west, for some people, it's done nicely, meaning you are not under constant pressure by your master to produce more value for the time he rents you.

>Be 19
>Be poor as fuck by first world standards
>Obviously have little experience and qualifications
>Every minimum wage McJob vacancy has 50+ people applying because double digit unemployment.
>Whenever I do manage to get a job my boss wants me to work insane hours that I simply cannot do because I also have to go to school so I'm not doing this for my entire life.

>just get another job haha
t. basement dwelling classcucks

Maybe not in my lifetime. But in the relatively near future I fully expect that industrial society will collapse. Possibly by nuking itself into dust, possibly by accelerating natural disasters, maybe something else. But what's clear is that it's setting itself up for a fall.

>What do you expect "anarcho-monarchism" to look like?
Like the 1700s. But with more communal agrarian socialism and less bourgeoisie.

>I'm supposed to subvert my whole life to someone elses gains so that I can barely scrape by?

You must work.

There is no getting around that. How much you get for that work is up to your ability. No engineer I know "barely scrapes by" you can choose to if you like but it is not a forlorn conclusion, it is an option. So quit pretending like you are doomed to live the life of a lower class Indian.

When they establish another failed state and most of them die from lack of food.

>It's essentially slavery

Could you whiners be any more melodramatic?

Do you imagine you would work less tending a plot of land as a subsistence farmer? Would you be a slave to your crops or animals? Perhaps a slave to the weather?

I totally recognise the necessity of work. I think it is a good thing to work too. It is the nature of modern work that unquestionably trashes people mentally and physically. Again this isn't about money. I'm not mad I can't buy a boat I'm mad this is a system of morals where striving to buy a boat is top of the totem pole

>Like the 1700s. But with more communal agrarian socialism and less bourgeoisie.
So you would find being a peasant laborer, high infant mortality, and smallpox to be preferable to having to write advertising?

Also, I'll pose a hypothetical. A couple of communiities get together and decide their gonna raid Socialismville, kill the men, rape the women, and turn the children into slaves. They outnumber you by a lot. What now?

>2017
>hating on capitalism

You say that as if private property is some kind of force of nature that we cannot escape from.

It's not and we can. Private property only exists because of force used to claim it, it's entirely manmade.

>It is the nature of modern work that unquestionably trashes people mentally and physically.

What a vague statement.

So is classical work better then? Lumberjacks working 16 hour days outside in all weather? Is that less physically and mentally trashing than whatever you are considering modern work?