If I desire to free myself of desire, is that not in itself a desire?

If I desire to free myself of desire, is that not in itself a desire?

Or in Christian terms, if my will is selfish and I want the Holy Spirit to change that, how can I get it to change me if "me" is my own selfish will? They say you have to get divine grace. But if I am to get Grace, why have I not got it already? Is it because I haven't accepted it? But we've already established that my will is inherently selfish so how could I be faulted? Then should I become a calvinist and say that everyone who receives Grace is predestined to do so? If that is so, then how can God judge those he chooses not to give Grace?

Yep

that's where the Way stops being useful
from there the pursuit operates without reference to language or logic
Eventually you'll realize that all that shit is irrelevant.

Also, you can't put Buddhist concepts in Christian terms.

If your desire is to serve God for the benefit of Him it ceases to be "selfish".

it's a little more complex than freeing yourself from desire, at least in mayahana. you're freeing yourself from impermanent sensual attachment, which is not the same thing. it's totally legitimate to have "wants" and "ambitions" as goal-directed behavior to reach more favorable states of being. this is all very concisely discussed in the jewel ornament of liberation, if you want references.
>t. Zhuang

>is that not in itself a desire?
Absolutely.

We can assuage this by service to others.

^^^
Essentially.

>that's where the Way stops being useful
But how, exactly?
At that point, we can go the Uttara Kaula Trika route, and initiate to Enjoyment, or initiate to Liberation.

Buddhism and other paths have less room for this.

In any case, the key rests in Service. Whether you want to Serve because you like it, or not, is functionally irrelevant.

^Also this.
Not only in Jewel but even in the Tripitaka with the whole water from brackish mud incident.

Buddhist use the wholesome and unwholesome instead of good/evil of other religion. As the definition of wholesome/unwholesome is dependent not on a commandment but a relative experience each person must work out. Work out towards the buddhahood.

The Buddhist don't say all desire is bad. In fact in the texts they say the desire to be free of suffering is a required catalyst. This desire is wholesome as it furthers the goal towards edification.

All desire may not be bad but all desire tightens the bonds which prevent Liberation.

I would agree that the idea here is to channel it toward wholesome or merit-accumulating ends.

This, in turn, ties back to the Vajrayana concept of using anger as a catalyst to transform that anger into more productive and constructive outcomes to emotional upset.

It is not desire itself that causes suffering, but the ignorance of impermanence in relation to our desires.

>If I desire to free myself of desire, is that not in itself a desire?

Yes that is why when the Buddha was just about to give up he became enlightened. It's about accepting suffering and seeing the world as empty. Essentially giving up but yet still doing is more of the mindsetl.

The mystical experience and ego death my man.
Real and realistically obtainable.
Try to do an mysticism on deep ecology it will get you spinin in the right direction my mullato.
I ate a bunch of mushrooms in the quinalt rainforest and now I'm all life on earth

The desire to free yourself from this suffering is the first step. You must have it in you to even begin the path.

If you had already freed yourself of desire, you wouldn't need that desire, so I don't see your point.

Stop reading bad translations

There's a difference between spiritual aspiration (chanda) and material craving (tanha)

Poe's law. I can't tell if this is serious.

increase kharma by being selfless. Achieve higher dimensions/ be more useful to humanity in each successive life.

It's like playing a video game where you leveling your character up in order to teach other players how to level their characters up. Only when all the characters are leveled up can you get to the next game. The original game does not lose its purpose until all the players have achieved the highest levels.

It is up to the player to decide if they level up and use their power against the lower level players or to use it as a teaching point to help other players get there.

You can max out your stats and be stuck at the top level for many lives, you don't achieve uselessness until all the players are equally as powerful. The first big step is to make it to that max level.

>If I desire to free myself of desire, is that not in itself a desire?

YES, WHICH IS WHY YOU SHOULD NOT DESIRE TO RID YOURSELF FROM DESIRE; YOU SHOULD JUST DO IT.

Hey Rei, what *is* your opinion on Buddhism? I'm interested.

Buddhism discourages intoxicants as a basic precept.

MY OPINION IS THAT IT IS ONE OF THE FEW GENUINE SPIRITUAL DOCTRINES, BUT LIKE ALL GENUINE SPIRITUAL DOCTRINES, IT HAS BEEN CORRUPTED AND PERVERTED BY THE IGNOBLE MAJORITY, SO, THERE ARE TWO BUDDHISMS: THE TRUE DOCTRINE TAUGHT BY SIDDHARTHA GAUTAMA BUDDHA, AND THE DEGENERATE RELIGION FORMED FROM THE TRUE DOCTRINE —MOST SO CALLED CONTEMPORARY "BUDDHISTS" BELONG TO THE LATTER.

What other doctrines would you call genuine? Do you believe any existing Buddhist sect to be uncorrupted, or relatively close to being uncorrupted?

I COMPREHEND THAT MOST PERSONS NEED FORMALISM TO BE ABLE TO PRACTICE THEIR BELIEF, BUT WHAT IS RELEVANT IS BELIEF, AND FAITH, NOT FORMALISM.

IF YOU LACK BELIEF, SPIRITUAL DOCTRINE, REGARDLESS OF ITS GENUINENESS, WILL BE INCONSEQUENTIAL.

DO NOT EMPHASIZE THE DOCTRINE, BUT YOUR OWN BELIEF, AND FAITH.

WHY TROUBLE YOURSELF FINDING THE TRUE WAY, IF YOU ARE UNABLE TO CROSS ITS THRESHOLD?

you been listeneing to alan watts again havnt you....the desire to free yourself from desire is neccesary it will pitter itself out once you reach a certain point, the "christian" term you put it in is stupid and talking in circles that dont actualy mean anything dont repeat it agian please

Buddha was a Kshatriya Prince who was exposed to all forms of pleasures and intoxicants throughout the youth of his life, there was no shortages and he lived a royal life that only the under 1% lived. He lived this life had a wife, kids and many courtiers, he lived this life so well he got sick and tired abandoned his children and wife and spent the rest of his life propagating and imposing his aversion to something he got so used to on himself and his followers most of whom were swayed by his arguments but still never lived the pleasure and satisfaction of his life.

the point of the story of his life is even with all those matirial pleasures he was unsatisfied its only when he looked inward and became spritual that he was then truley happy

No. Freeing yourself from desire is the opposite of desire or i.e no desire. Just like how not collecting stamps is not a hobby.

I may not understand Buddhism as well as I thought I did. The goal is to rid yourself of desire? I thought that the third noble truth dictates that attachment is what causes suffering. Are attachment and desire interchangeable?

DESIRE ARISES FROM ATTACHMENT.