How do catholics justify idolatory?

>Being=/=person
This is a fact

They do not consider it worship, They consider it veneration of a superior individual who is closer to God.

The statues are not prayed to but are icons to help bring focus.

If you think that is convoluted it is but Christians have been doing it in some form since the 1st century, as a visit to the catacombs will demonstrate

Like it matters. You could argue that a Church itself is idolatrous.

Personhood is just a subcategory of being, it is not distinct from it, and something having a personhood separate from their being is absurd.

The veneration of the saints makes little sense in Christian context, considering God is held to be omniscient/omnipresent and omniscient, as well as completely Just.

Why would he need an army of intermediaries to take requests from human subjects? Can't God do that himself? Being omnipotent, it wouldn't even be bothersome to him.

Why should God be more favorable to a person who asked a saint to pray to God for them, than to someone who simply prayed to him directly? Is God some kind of mafioso, rather than a supposedly merciful supreme Judge?

Also, why even bother praying (sorry, "asking") to a saint to pray to God for you? Why not do it yourself?

It's extremely convoluted, and makes no sense. The veneration of the saints is simply a way to satisfy people's desires to have "variety" in their worship, since monotheism gets boring.

>Personhood is just a subcategory of being
Do Jellyfish have personhood?

>They do not consider it worship, They consider it veneration of a superior individual who is closer to God.
That's worship
>Christians have been doing it in some form since the 1st century
Lolno, it started in the late 4th century

>muh tradition
Its not only The argument for idolatry but for any kind of stupid shit catholics do.

Well no, read some academic papers on the issue. Greek and roman Christians built triumphal arches over the tombs of martyrs and prayed to them like spiritual patrons (patronage being a hallmark of their social organization)

Like it or not the ground work for this type of thing was laid down in early Christian communities

The saints in heaven are perfected in Christ, and the bible says the prayers of a righteous man availeth much.

Who gives a shit about the Bible? The fact that different denominations can hold views that are diametrically opposed to each other based on the same book shows just how useless that book is.

No, they didn't.

The saints in heaven can't hear you

Well they did. If that makes you uncomfertable you can pretend there are some hidden "pure" Christian communities that didn't do this. But there is no evidence such communities existed, except for maybe messianic Jews who were considered heretics

>getting your doctrine from the bible
Bible: Sell all you have and give to the poor.
Gospel of Thomas, a gospel found in Nag Hamadi in 1945: Do not give alms, for it will damage your spirit.

Oh wow, look at the doctrinal edit.

How would you know?

They're not 3 divine beings, why do americucks always say that?

If I chop your head off you don't suddenly become 2 retards do you?

>They're not 3 divine beings

But they literally are taught as that. The spirit is not the father is not the son yet at the same time they are one.

Your analogy is retarded as the human being is not thought as in the same way as the church doctrine is.

Catholicism always speaks of heaven, whatever the fuck that looks like. As a seemingly highly structured place, where the figure of god acts as a king, with the angels and humans as his subjects.

Outside of the old testament god never comes to earth himself, he always does things trough someone else. You also don't pray to saints as if they were gods, but you pray to them like you pray to your death relatives, you can pray and ask for favors from your relatives as well, or pray for their well being in the afterlife, they are death humans, therefore not deities, therefore not polytheism.

And if you are talking about the idols, images and statues, nobody prays to them, they are just decoration AFAIK, and I've never seen them act as anything else, some people will claim that some objects are holy, but you don't pray to the object, not even just as a representation of the god.

I was in a catholic school, and took cathequesis for a while, and the holy spirit and the father were never referred to as separate entities, the holy spirit isn't mentioned much at all tbqh, it's mostly tough of as the spirit of god.
Jesus Christ is definitely always referred to as a separate being entirely, but he's also never described as a god, he's put in the same position as saints, he is the prophet, the son of god, not god himself, and people do not worship him, or at least the church never teaches that you should, like they do not worship the virgin Mary.

The holy trinity is not what people worship either anyway, Catholics only worship Jehova, and the holy trinity is more like the 3 most important parts of what makes up the whole system, rather than the 3 things that you worship.

>the trinity is biblical
lol

1 divine being. 1 essence.
Dipshit.

2 Corinthians 13:14
Colossians 2:9
John 1:14
John 10:30
Matthew 28:19
Luke 3:21-22

Shall I go on?

We don't, idolatry is wrong. Merely making images is not idolatry, though. Respecting holy people and asking them to pray for us is also not idolatry.

Also reminder that worship (latria) is an act of will, you can't worship something by accident.

>biblecucks
Ah yes, the notion that we will have to wait several millions of years while the life of a person after another is shown to us completely in detail year after year so it can be judged.

I guess the gnostic notion of: no gnosis, no heaven, instant entrance was too crazy.

>Millions of years
Where did you get that number from? Your ass?

How many inhabitants has earth had and how long they lived?
Take your meds if you think there wont be a requirement for gnosis.

Not the age of the earth, the time spent reviewing the lives of every single unsaved human.

>Also reminder that worship (latria) is an act of will, you can't worship something by accident
So when people claim that atheists merely worship something else in the place of God, like themselves or money, they are wrong?

God is not bound by time, retard.
Time, space and matter are created by Him.

We live in linear time. God lives outside of that line. He can see our past, present and future all at once.

There is no `time´ as we understand it in the afterlife, simply eternity.

The judgement of works says everybody will see it, so there will be time, a total eternity while everybody is judged no less.

It will be in an instant.

Ever heard about those NDE stories where the guy had a life review? From birth to death in 1 second.

So let's say you're walking from one room to another of your golden mansion in of New Jerusalem.

Do you ever reach the other room?

>o-our perception of time will be like a god!

Sure m8 :^)

Yes, what kind of dumb question is that?

Do you appear there, or do you travel?

Trust me in the gnosis one kiddo, I doubt God is going to give you a memory of the whole humanity shitting diarrheically.

An analogy would be like its the Hyperbolic Time Chamber from Dragon Ball Z.

One day in this world is like 1 year in the HTC.

The Bible says that 1000 years for us is like 1 day to Him, and vice-versa.

We are talking about a different dimension/realm/afterlife here, something more real and vibrant than this physical creation. Trying to wrap your head around it is futile.

>One day in this world is like 1 year in the HTC.
Goten and Trunks would themselves experience the full year while Piccolo would experience the one day. Shifting the balance of time does nothing for those subjectively experiencing the extended timeline.

The question remains.

Time would not exist as we know it.

You know having fun makes time fly by so fast? Well multiply that by infinity, that is heaven.

You would live ``in the moment´´, but for eternity.

>using dragon ball z to illustrate your theological point

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL christfags

multiverse interpretation is bullshit and there is no other universes sorry :*(

If someone puts things like money, power, approval, etc. ahead of God then they aren't giving God the adoration He is due.

>You know having fun makes time fly by so fast?

the same reason taking amphetamine makes time fly by faster?

OMG TIME TRAVEL PILLS or... you know.. basic neurobiology

>MUH GOD MADE ME GO FAST LIKE SANIC GUYS

>and in the last day we will know who had the biggest dick
Yeah no
Gnosis
Besides, I've experienced it already.

So what about those who are not having fun? For example, those watching everyone else about to be damned while reviewing their lives, knowing they are somewhere on the chopping block up next?

And the perception of time in no way affects time itself. Again, consider walking from one room of the golden mansion to another. If it takes time, even if you ignore it, time passed.

>For example, those watching everyone else about to be damned while reviewing their lives
How do they know whose going to be damned?

Oh, sure. But remember, worship is not something that can happen by accident, as per . Thus, atheists and the like are merely guilty of not affording God the respect due, not of worshiping something other than God. Because atheists don't believe in worship at all, and thus cannot do it at all as they do not intend to in the first place.

>Jesus Christ is definitely always referred to as a separate being entirely, but he's also never described as a god, he's put in the same position as saints, he

Are you kidding? Jesus's divinity was hammer constantly in Catholic school. Its in the basic prayers at mass

Bible: Sell all you have and give to the poor.
Gnostic gospel: Giving alms damages the spirit.

Because they were in Hell rather than in Heaven in the period between their death and the Last Judgement. After the Last Judgement, Heaven Earth and Hades pass away, to be replaced with the New Jerusalem and the Lake of Fire.

If you were in Hell, you know your name will not be in the Book of Life, and thus you will be in the Lake of Fire. Meanwhile. if you were in Heaven, you know your name was in the Book of Life, and you will inhabit New Jerusalem in an Edenic human body.

God is the perfect judge.

Doesn't answer the question.

>Because they were in Hell rather than in Heaven in the period between their death and the Last Judgement.
Yeah but what if they're let off on good behavior?

No scriptural source of such a thing, and most traditions do not allow for it. If you're a universalist, sure.

Samuel was brought back from the dead, where are all these ghosts hiding?

So is the virgin mary, that doesn't make it a figure of worship, not in the same way as god is.

They're like boxcars on a Ferris Wheel.

Book of Exodus, chapter 25.

>inb4 we don't live under the Law anymore
Matthew, chapter 5, verses from 17 to 20.

Anyone who died before the death of Jesus goes to Sheol. However, Sheol was divided into two sections, what was referred to as "Abraham's Bosom " and the abode of the unrighteous dead. After Jesus' resurrection, the righteous dead were taken into Heaven, while the unrighteous dead were taken into Hell. Between the Resurrection and the Last Judgement, those who believe in Jesus go to Heaven, those who do not go to Hell. After the Last Judgement, all inhabitants of Abraham's Bosom/Heaven are bodily reincarnated onto the New Jerusalem, while all inhabitants of the unrighteous abode/Hell or Hades are trapped in the Lake of Fire.

What? They were always clear that Mary is not divine in Catholic school, merely that she is the mother of God, but still beneath him in status. Nor will you find a single orthodox Catholic prayer that states her to be divine

"So the last will be first, and the first will be last."

>we will be judged because of our works
Which ones?
>giving to the poor
gospel of Thomas says giving to the poor is bad for your spirit.
>not canon
This isn't an adventure series where you decide a canon

Perhaps if people had been exposed to that concept they could have avoided many of the problems that accompany dogmatic Catholic programming.

That has nothing to do with whether Jesus or Mary are divine.

If Mary doesn't make it into the Kingdom of Heaven we're all doomed.

What are you talking about? Catholics believe Mary was so good she was just taken into heaven without dieing first. But they never taught she was equal to God or some sort of lesser Goddess

Jesus is always referred to as a man too. He is the son of god, but he is also just a man.

>works
A thief gets into heaven in the Bible, and his only work is telling some guy to shut up. How does that qualify as a work?

I am really starting to doubt you went to Catholic school.

the Nicene creed says Jesus is God and consubstantial to the father, that without him creation would not have happened. Anyone who even once paid attention in mass would know this.

I did, and even in my non-catholic schools that also had religion as an assignature because that's how schools are here, jesus is always referred to as just a man.

Never heard of him having anything to do with creation, just with salvation.

See

It's in the fucking gospels, my man.

Amazing

>gospel of Thomas

"I believe in Jesus Christ the only son of God...
begotten not made consubstantial with the father through him all things were made."

Its said in every Catholic mass

There are ONLY 4 Gospels

Yes

Are you Catholic Christian?

I use to be

Catholics aren't Christian

so It´s night and I tell you this:
I hate mary,saints,angels and archangels?
What I should do?

Protestant are you?

How the fuck should I know? I'm not your councilor or you priest

emm..friendly advice..

Why?

Just asking...look history and then say something

>Just asking
Yes
>look history and then say something
What?

Do a miracle like your text says you can so we can tell real stuff from forgery.

I´m going to sleep but I recomend you to check for Early Church faith and teachings,whole history of church and early church fathers.

patheos.com/blogs/albertlittle/this-one-quote-convinced-me-to-be-a-catholic/

Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
1 Corinthians 1:22-24

I already have read some early church fathers. I am not gullible, so the attempts of Catholic propagandists to turn them into papists will not work on me.