Help me understand a Italian fascism, Veeky Forums

Well first of all Fascism isn't an inherently racist ideology. There are 3 main types of Fascism: Ethnic (Like National Socialism), Cultural (Like Oswald Mosley's BUF) and Clerical (basically Theocracies). Ethnic Fascism is where the real racism is. Now I don't see Ethnic Fascism coming back in any real way, but Cultural and Clerical can work in the modern world.

>because fascism failed almost everywhere, the only country that I can recall to survive several decades with fascism was Spain and it was not pure fascism at all
How did they fail exactly? Italy's regime was violently overthrown and Germany's regime was militarily crushed. I wouldn't call that a failure of ideology but a failure of the leaders/country

Wow that sounds like a gay paradise

still counts as a failure
and those military failures came because of their obsession with regaining old land and basically declaring war on everyone

>Veeky Forums loves fascism and mussolini but hates nationalsocialism and hitler
why?

really dude

Because Hitler was an autistic retard who caused the deaths of millions of Europeans including over 6 million Germans all because of his retarded expansionist ideas

He also surrounded himself with retards like Goebbels and pathetic virgins like Himmler

>National Socialism is Fascism
>Theocracies is Fascism

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

AUTHORITARIAN SYSTEMS ARE NOT NECESSARILY FASCIST REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>National Socialism is not Fascism
lol

As far as I know there aren't any forums, but you might find some blogs if you search around.

Look into Gentile and Marinetti and Mussolini's own writings. Some of Evola's non-occult works too

>every dictator is a fascist

middleschool tier tbqh

>Did fascism help Italy?
Absolutely no: corrupt regime, drag Italy into a unbearable war on the wrong side, city in ruins, lost of national sovereignity
>Was it good living there for the average person?
Only if you were a member of the party
>Can fascism make a successful nation in modern times? Can you have fascism without trying to be an autarky?
I don't think so: autarky for Italy was utopia

>He also redeem the Italian army by conquering Abyssinia
kek

Because Hitler was a moron who destroyed over half of Europe because of his outdated race science and pointless ecpansionism.

It baffles me that all modern fascists don't hate Hitler. He singlehandedly ruined fascist possibilities and forever associated it with genocide in the public eye.

Goebbels was the father of modern propaganda, it's a bit unfair to call him retard.

You could say that of Göring tho.

Does an anti-communist, anti-democracy government that doesn't view autarky as the goal exist?

I'm leaning more and more towards fascism but I do see flaws. Fuck globalism, but some international trade isn't bad. Immigration also needs to be heavily monitored and enforced, but if someone can provide a service to the nation, let 'em in.

What kind of government best fits this description?

We all agree Himmler was a nutcase though, right?

Mussolini is a fucking tool though

I read somewhere that the jews were doing fine the first years of his regime, but then out of nowhere they started mistreating them because 'that's what daddy hitler would want'

Historically they became joined at the hip but really Italian Fascism and German Nazism have little in common beyond ultranationalism and a vague sense of "national rebirth". the Italians didn't buy into superstitions and mumbo-jumbo like the Nazis with their Aryan mysticism and Race "Science", on the contrary Mussolini was heavily influenced by the Futurists and his regime was technophillic. It's a great shame the relationship between the Allies and Mussolini crashed and burned and drove Italy into the Nazi sphere, a neutral Fascist Italy that survived the war would have broken the back of Catholic anti-thought culture.

>I read somewhere

It was more lip service than actually enforcing the policies though.

>Does an anti-communist, anti-democracy government that doesn't view autarky as the goal exist?
The point is that autarky can be real only if you own raw materials and shit, so countries like Italy can't long for autarky. Maybe ex USSR or USA

Yeah Neo-paganism and wanting so bad to have a private army is fucking dumb.

Giving the best equipment to troops lead by loyal but not as good generals as the ones in the Wehrmacht is the worst Hitler did.

Sepp a shitto add.

Autarky is an idiotic conceit, you will always be better off with free trade. Fascism, and all "strong leader" type -isms, suffers from the fallibility of humans and the existence of psychopaths. It's all well and good to have a benevolent fascist dictator, but when he dies / goes insane and Stalin takes over, then you have a problem.

>benevoilent
>fascist
pick one

>HURR

You have to be 18 to post on Veeky Forums.

why? explain

Jewish/racial autism was a product of german autism.

Same reason people here love Mishima and Evola. They really want to espouse fascist beliefs, but not look like /pol/tards while doing it.

It's to stop underaged morons wasting people's time with moronic underaged """opinions""".

Can't i just like Mishima as an author?

His masculinity and samurai fetishism pushed him into what almost looks like insanity. I'm convinced he knew the coup would fail and just wanted an excuse to commit sudoku because he didn't get to die for the emperor.

It's not just the racialism, Mussolini's Italy was extremely progressive in every sense of the word. Remember that it rose in part in opposition to the strict moralism of the Pope, so it valued free expression much more highly than any other autocratic state I can think of. Also, Mussolini himself was at one time a socialist, so he understood the plight of the worker (or thought he did) and made efforts to improve workers rights and standards, in direct opposition to the Nazis who oppressed the fuck out of their own people and exploited their "free" workers almost as much as their slaves.

As to Autarchy, Mussolini talked it up because it made him (and Italy) seem strong, a kind of "we don't need anyone" attitude, but in practical terms he was a free marketeer, he signed trade deals with the West right up to the formation of the Pact of Steel.

>They were horribly awful at war
No, their industrial capacity simply wasn't great enough to endure the rigors and pace of post WWI warfare.

youtube.com/watch?v=IqoOk5nZEKw

There's nothing wrong with enjoying Mishima's work as an author, and his life story is definitely an interesting one.

But I think it's dumb, or at the very least dishonest, when people glorify him and other obscure fascists because they're lesser known than Mussolini or Hitler.

have you seen pictures of what Italians did to Mussolini at the end of the war?

>everything is fascism
National socialism is not fascism. When Italian blackshirts BTFO commies, the commies started calling every right wing paramilitary group "fascist" as a pejorative out of butthurt, that's how Hitler suddenly started getting called a fascist. Doesn't mean he was one.

I bet you leftists are rightfully assmad when libertarians call everyone left of Mises a "socialist". Stop doing the same thing.

Prime example:
youtube.com/watch?v=sxn5v1KZWe4

They weren't Italians, they were Commies.

Commies

And they're suffering for it to this day when half of Italian politics is corrupt shitters on mafia payroll and the other half is crypto Marxists. Mussolini knew how to put mafiosi and commies in line.

>what communists did to Mussolini

And yeah. Commies behaving like animals, what else is new?

Italian Fascism heavily influenced National Socialism rather than the other way around. It really just boiled down to a disillusioned socialist capitalizing on disgruntled Italians and promising a vague national rebirth fetishizing national unity and the Roman Empire. He was a Marxist in his younger years so he knew how to pander to the working class and did so heavily. His regime was ironically enough much less conservative than most of Italy's rulers because of the diminished authority of the Aristocracy and the Pope. He didn't stress racial purity as much as the Germans did, instead he really just pushed Italy's destiny to colonize the inferior peoples of Africa and reclaim rightful Italian Territory. In my opinion Mussolini's regime was much more sustainable than Hitler's. And only really met it's downfall because of his expensive conquests of other nations and eventual pact of steel.

>Nazis are fascist

Yeah, nah. In fact, when Mussolin got reinstalled near the end of the war, he made a point of calling his government National Socialist, and I think actively persecuted fascists for selling him out in the first place.

Nazis and fasfists were literally never conservative, ever. Read what Horst Wessel song has to say about "reaktion", what Hitler thought of aristocracy and monarchy, or the modernist art and progressive ideology of fascism and its ties to futurism.

Literally the only reason fascism is associated with conservatives today is because leftists started putting them into the same bag. So /pol/acks who worship fascism because it was "conservative" took the bait as well. It is often said that people in the Renaissance didn't idolize real Rome and Greece rather than a medieval approximation of them. In the same vein, /pol/acks don't fetishize actual fascists and national socialism, they fetishize a false boogeyman version of it created by the left.

nice

italy had a monarchy while being fascist and Franco did elect a king as his sucessor

and both of them with Germany did enforce these "classic values" and behaviour that is why they are related with conservatives

>It is often said that people in the Renaissance didn't idolize real Rome and Greece rather than a medieval approximation of them. In the same vein, /pol/acks don't fetishize actual fascists and national socialism, they fetishize a false boogeyman version of it created by the left.

That's a neat way of putting it and pretty ironic considering Nazism/Fascism is a further idealized approximation of the the Renaissance approximation.

>italy
leader overthrown, than hanged
>germany
chats shit, gets hit
>portugal
overthrown by revolution
>spain
40 years of basque terrorism and economic crisis and lluis llach

>Can fascism make a successful nation in modern times?
Yes indeed, I believe it can. The problem is the things surrounding Fascism give it such a bad image no one is willing to accept Fascism or at least listen to what Fascists have to say, the Communists are slowly beginning to be tolerated and listened to, I think it is unfair that Fascism can't be the same. Besides, (((they))) wouldn't want to see Fascism succeed once more.
>Can you have fascism without trying to be an autarky?
A nation can indeed be Fascist without being an autarky or even trying to be
Autarky was just a pipedream of the Fascists, it gave them something to work towards, sort of like how Marxists believe all socialist nations will evolve into Communist ones over time
Autarky is a nice gesture, but it raises concerns with an autarky such as if the extra-national exploitation of cheap labor used in Capitalism will then be brought into the fascist nation, making it a stereotypically draconian nightmare for the middle and lower classes on the level of North Korea.
>I don't believe Jews are inherently evil
Mussolini had Jewish friends that identified as fascists and said before that he was not an anti-semite (this was said before Hitler came to power), and even more so, these Jews were some genuinely good people with pride in the nation of Italy and who wished to see it succeed as well as guarantee their quality of life as well as the quality of life for all Italian peoples of all classes. These weren't dishonest and callous Jews trying to worm their way into power through pledging their allegiance to whoever they had to pledge.
You should be suspicious of the Jew, and you should have absolutely no tolerance for the Zionist, you're setting yourself up to be taken advantage of if you aren't weary of (((them))).
If you would like to know more about Fascism and how it was for the man on the street, read "The Fascist Experience In Italy", by John Pollard. You should also check out Codex Fascismo.

>the Communists are slowly beginning to be tolerated and listened to

Communism is a joke in 2017 fucking l m a o

fear mongering is the only defense of the stormfag in denial

we could argue about Spain beign half successful since the people in power nowdays are the descendants of the fascists

A joke, sure, but there are openly communist and marxist political parties and college professors, good luck finding an open fascist anywhere outside a trailerpark or prison.

I know several, both from the ebin svastika tattoo who hits inmigrants and homeless, and the educated person with some kind of relevancy or power kind

You know educated people in positions of power who are OPENLY fascists? Yeah, no.

>Italy had a monarchy
And Mussolini was never really a fan of it, he and the king merely begrudhingly tolerated each other until tge king decided to back a coup against Mussolini.

>Franco
Not a fascist really, he was a counter-enlightement Catholic reactionary caudillo. Very old school right wing.

there are plenty in my country and I'm not even talking about fascists political parties because those aren't relevant

and when I talk about power I'm talking also about all kind of power like owning mass media or important businessmen

ok, but the point is that the relation between conservatives and fascist is the view to the past and the old values and also being the representants of the right wing
another thing to consider is that ideologies can change a lot through time, just like social-democrats started almost as soft commies and have turned into conservatives with a nicer face

>Communism is a joke in 2017 fucking l m a o
Good thing for them humor has been the primary rhetorical weapon of leftist subversives since the sixties...

>HAHA Communism is such a joke! Isn't it ridiculous? Look at Stalin and his stupid pipe!
>Seriously though guys, fuck capitalism and fuck white people!

Mussolini wasn't really looking to the past other than building on Roman sentiments, fascism was basically an extremely progressive form of authoritarian nationalism. Mussolini was originally a progressive socialist but was kicked out of socialist party for having nationalist views.

Fascism isn't really nearly as reactionary as most people think it is.

>Communism is a joke in 2017 fucking l m a o
>now listen about how I'm going to make a Nazi entho-state for whites and gas all the jews

You mean the ~4000 members of the fabian society that haven't woken up and smelled the 21st century yet?

2/10

LARPing communists detected. Enjoy your dead movement filled with schisming and retarded tendencies.

>using the right left dichotomy
Why? It is a very poor indicator of what a political ideology is.

It wasn't exactly a paradise, but not German death camp conditions either; the most revolutionary thing about it was that it was a place where gays could actually be gay, which was unique at the time.

>LARPing communist
>pointing out that academia is full of communists and red "anarchists" are free to riot in the streets, all because people stopped taking communism seriously and let them walk right in the front door and start squatting in the living room makes me a communist.
Fuck off Red.
The fact that people think communism is a joke is the exact reason modern society is in the state it is, where open socialists run for president on the ticket of the Democrat party.

>Why?
Because I'm referring to the original right wing that Franco was very much an adherent of. The fact Americans bastardized left and right into a purely economic dichotomy doesn't mean there is no such thing as left and right.

well, Franco was so old school right that he was basically a offspring of XIX century Carlism after being influenced by fascism

Franco was a de Maistrean pretty much.

>Carlism
Are you trying to say Carlism was modernist or something?

>fascism
He just used Primo de Rivera for support, but was never a falangist/fascist himself.

I'm saying that he took the heritage of Carlism with the support of fascism to create franquism

But Carlism was also in line with the original post-revolutionary traditional right wing so I'm not sure how him taking the influence of Carlism refutes anything I said.

I was not refuting but agreeing with you
it's late and I'm tired, sorry if I didn't explain well

OK, sorry for the confusion.

The first step to understanding Fascism is to understand it at its most base, imperfect form: a system of centrist autocratic government that intends to consume every single possible aspect of the nation into an inorganic 'state' -- everything else is relatively subjective and dependent on what Mussolini/the Fascist Council hoped to achieve at the time.

>fascism
>inorganic
Stop.

Non-hereditary dictatorships are always going to be worse than hereditary ones because in hereditary ones the leaders care about the well being of the state after his death more than the leader of a non-hereditary dictatorship.

>government that enforces deliberate, conscious laws
>organic

>the only country that I can recall to survive several decades with fascism
The United States. 1776-Present

What country?

EPIC NICE I LEIK

>They were horribly awful at war
I'm pretty sure they had a substantial role in the Spanish Civil War. And as said, their military industry simply couldn't keep up with the ones of more powerful European countries during WWII. Doesn't mean they were horrible at war. Mussolini himself knew Italy couldn't have gone to war the time it did.

Fascism and National Socialism are two distinct ideologies. The former advocates for corporatism, Autarky and cultural hegemony, it is Futurist. The latter doesn't advocate for any economical system in particular. It advocates for an ethnostate which may or may not seek Autarky, it is Traditionalist.

Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany sure had some elements in common, like the Militarism, but saying they're the same thing or, as I've seen some people saying, that National Socialism is just a racist branch of Fascism, is wrong. They're both branches of Nationalism, and Nationalism is not like the Left and the Right, which remain the same wherever they are. Nationalism will be different for every country it is applied in. Because historical forces differ from country to country, and so does Nationalism.

hitler got a lot farther in life than u did pal,
just saying...

They didn't care about the regime change because most of them were more loyal to the king/Catholic Church. It's telling that once the first Allied soldier stepped foot on Sicily, Mussolini's support collapsed and he was only able to hold onto the north with substantial German support.

>Southern Italians' opinion.
>Worthy of consideration.
Pfffffff.

>such cruelty
I take it you wouldn't object to being forcibly removed from your home and arbitrarily detained, then?

That may be bad, but no one cares about faggots. Especially at that time.

reminder that Germany had war declared on it and ww2 could have been avoided if they'd just given him his old clay

>Stalin
>not a benevolent dictator

It takes a true leader to force women and children into working 12 hours a day as slave labor to beat back the nazis. Any other Russian and we'd be speaking German right now, but not with the iron giant.

>Stalin
>giant
lmao

Moving forwards towards disaster is not a good thing.

>reminder that Germany had war declared on it and ww2 could have been avoided if they'd just given him his old clay
>HURR GIVE US YOUR LAND OR WE WILL LAUNCH A BLOODY WAR OF CONQUEST AGAINST YOU AND SLAUGHTER HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF YOUR PEOPLE

>the average person was either as well off or better off than before fascism
Lol no
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quota_90

Hitler wanted nothing from England.