Witches & Gods as Saints

Online, it's spoken of as "common knowledge" - but I'm looking for concrete examples... I'm looking for good examples of paganism hiding in Catholicism. Examples:

ST BRIGID (deity):
...has the same name, associations and feast day as the Celtic goddess Brigid, and there are many supernatural events, legends and folk customs associated with her.

ST COLUMBA (pagan):
...is venerated in Spain as "Patron Saint of Witches" (as a former-witch, literally both protecting other witches - and warding against magic).

ST BARBARA (syncretism):
...is syncretized with Chango, Yoruba deity of war, dance, virility, sex, etc. Association via her sword (he's a warrior), her colors (red & white are sacred to Chango) and vestment (in one myth he escapes a husband he cucked, another god, by sneaking out of town in woman's garb).

.

Not looking for light connections (ie, "oh this Saint has a name like a god but few other associations in common").

Yes, looking for heavy connections (ie, "oh neat, this saint has a fuller backstory and symbols, a forgotten god (or pagan) hidden among the honored dead").

Bonus points if it's Celtic, tho Nordic and Roman certainly work.

.

Not sure about Saint Patrick (sometimes replaces the Celtic Lugh - and trade the triple-face for the triple-leafed shamrock - but anywho).

Pic related.

Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirishitan
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakure_Kirishitan
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Japan
twitter.com/NSFWRedditGif

Mary is the pagan Queen of Heaven, she has the same title, the same starry cloak, and is the mother of the saviour god, just like the pagan deity (mother of Horus / Dionysos)

>Saint Patrick

He's an historical figure, a Welshman taken as a slave by Irish raiders.

Not quite.

Dionysus is associated with Jesus - but he wasn't born of Hera. He was first born to a different mother - then Hera plotted the child's murder (whether by accident or by releasing Titans or other monsters) - and then Zeus took the remnants, put it into a new mother and the child was thus "reborn and of a virgin".

And Hera's emblems included peacocks - and archaically, cattle/cows. No special association with the sky or stars. None of her children represented celestial forces either -- we got Angelos (underworld), Ares (war), Eileithyia (childbirth), Enyo (war), Eris (discord), Hebe (youth), Hephaestus (fire and forge) Typhone (serpent monster).

And of course I'm presuming - because you say "pagan Queen of Heaven" without specifying which kind of paganism - I'm just thinking Greco-Roman via Dionysus.

If Isis (Egyptian), we got ankhs, knots. Isis always had her "throne"-crown (Mary doesn't). Lotus or sycamore trees (neither for Mary). Cow horns (association to Hera but not Mary). Vultures. There's some superficial Isis-Hera ties (if we really reach) but nothing for Mary, except a few visuals of mother-and-child. But you can't possible (for example) use Mary as a substitute for Isis or Hera - she simply lacks the vast majority of their symbols and story.

Yeah. Agreed. St. Patrick is wishful thinking.

St. Brigid seems the most obvious Irish one - tho even then, some suggest it was a legitimate nun named after the goddess (who later was associated with her symbols and stories). Brigid, Patrick and some 3rd Saint seem to be the most prominent, so one had hoped the other 2 were "tainted"...

I suppose what surprises me is the apparent prominence of Lugh - and not being sure where to find a "Christianized" version, if it exists.

.

Should clarify I'm not looking to condemn or criticize the faith - but am looking to "find" old gods that have been painted over (which is more promising than other gods who were wiped out altogether from the map).

ST COLUMBA isn't a deity - but also serves an usual yet relevant role. I was tempted by ST OLGA OF KIEV too (not really Pagan, but her vengeance and mass-destruction of enemies is legendary-tier - and even as a mere mortal, she's atypical of Saints and more comparable to the Erinyes).

Nothing you said is news to me, you mouthbreathing retard. Go fuck yourself.

Then elaborate on your "pagan Queen of Heaven" trope. At the moment, you sound like a pop-culture Christian spitting Disney-esque (pic related) insights on paganism, like if it's some giant melting pot.

Or yeah, get angry for being called out on your bullshit. xoxo

Another good tho obvious one:

SAINT MARTIN OF TOURS
aka SAINT MARTIN IN-THE-FIELDS

Whereas the Roman Ares was viewed negatively (war as harmful to civilization and the only old soldiers are cowards) - the Greek Mars was viewed positively (war as masculine, think Spartans).

By extension, Mars' own precursors included some kind of "water gods" (literally fertilizing the earth) and then became a guardian-god (of those same fields). From guardian we then came to warlike qualities.

Saint Martin is venerated as a military saint. The story of his cloak (splitting it in half to share) is perhaps the most famous.

There's a relic called "the Hammer of Martin of Tours" - made from an even older bronze-age stone axe - allegedly a war hammer used to smash idols.

Associated heavily with France. When WWI's armistice was signed on his day (November 11) it was seen as an intercession by the saint to end the war.

Other associations include "flames turning away" as he burned temples; casting out devils; and an "intimate closeness with the devil" (perhaps as Ares often accompanied by Discord and Phobos?).

Depictions vary, though white (with red cloak) is interesting (again, colors sacred to Chango). Chango (Yoruba war-energy-dance god) whose affair with Yemoja (a sea/love goddess), infuriated Ogun (Chango's sibling, a craft/husband/hunt/war god) all resembles the Ares/Aphrodite/Hephaestus affair in some elements.

Mars sacred animals were the Woodpecker, Wolf, Bear --- but the Celtic version of Mars held Geese as sacred (for their bellicose nature). Saint Martin was associated with Geese (who allegedly revealed his hiding spot when he was avoiding the church).

The doctrine of transubstantiation does not date back to the Last Supper as is supposed. It was a controverted topic for many centuries before officially becoming an article of faith, which means that it is essential to salvation according to the Roman Catholic Church. The idea of a corporal presence was vaguely held by some, such as Ambrose, but it was not until 831 A.D. that Paschasius Radbertus, a Benedictine monk, published a treatise openly advocating the doctrine of transubstantiation. Even then, for almost another four hundred years, theological war was waged over this teaching by bishops and people alike until at the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 A.D., it was officially defined and canonized as a dogma.

Like many of the beliefs and rites of Romanism, transubstantiation was first practiced by pagan religions. The noted historian Durant said that belief in transubstantiation as practiced by the priests of the Roman Catholic system is "one of the oldest ceremonies of primitive religion." The Story Of Civilization, p. 741. The syncretism and mysticism of the Middle East were great factors in influencing the West, particularly Italy. Roman Society From Nero To Marcus Aurelius, Dill. In Egypt priests would consecrate mest cakes which were supposed to be come the flesh of Osiris. Encyclopedia Of Religions, V2 p76. The idea of transubstantiation was also characteristic of the religion of Mithra whose sacraments of cakes and Haoma drink closely parallel the Catholic Eucharistic rite. Ibid. The idea of eating the flesh of deity was most popular among the people of Mexico and Central America long before they ever heard of Christ; and when Spanish missionaries first landed in those countries "their surprise was heightened, when they witnessed a religious rite which reminded them of communion an image made of flour...and after consecration by priests, was distributed among the people who ate it declaring it was the flesh of deity" Prescott's Mexico, Vol. 3.

The Christian Church for the first three hundred years remained somewhat pure and faithful to the Word of God, but after the pseudo-conversion of Constantine, who for political expedience declared Christianity the state religion, thousands of pagans were admitted to the church by baptism alone with out true conversion. They brought with them pagan rites which they boldly introduced into the church with Christian terminology, thus corrupting the primitive faith. Even the noted Catholic prelate and theologian, Cardinal Newman, tells us that Constantine introduced many things of pagan origin: "We are told in various ways by Eusebius, that Constantine, in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed in their own...The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison, are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church." An Essay On The Development Of Christian Doctrine, pp. 359, 360. This unholy alliance also allowed the continuance of the pagan custom of eating and drinking the literal flesh and literal blood of their god. This is actually how transubstantiation entered the professing church.

"The Two Babylons" by Alexander Hislop

"A Woman Rides The Beast" by Dave Hunt.

"The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields; sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church." (An Essay on The Development of the Christian Doctrine John Henry 'Cardinal Newman' p.373)

Catholic admissions.

"It has often been charged .. that Catholicism is overlaid with many pagan incrustations. Catholicism is ready to accept that accusation and even to make it her boast .. the great god Pan is not really dead, he is baptized." (The Story of Catholicism, p. 37)

"It is interesting to note how often our Church has availed herself of practices which were in common use among pagans .. Thus it is true, in a certain sense, that some Catholic rites and ceremonies are a reproduction of those of pagan creeds." (The Externals of the Catholic Church, Her Government, Ceremonies, Festivals, Sacramentals and Devotions, by John F. Sullivan, p. 156, published by P.J. Kennedy, NY, 1942)

"Just in case", I should add I'm not trying to condemn Catholicism. This is not an anti-Catholic screed - but more of a pro-Pagan exploration - trying to find things that were buried instead of destroyed. It's the syncreticism I'm looking into.

That said, excellent excerpt on the transubstantiation. While originally looking to compare the iconography of Saints and Deities, I'll definitely look into similar practices.

...and into Newman and Eusebius, et al. Thanks for sharing those!

What's mest cakes?

Possibly....

Hebrew "unleavened bread" (mazzoth) derived from "mest" or "mesit", cakes offered by the Egyptians at the new year festival to Osiris. By extension, "mazzoth" exists in Arabic as in "pure". Altogether, possibly sweet, unleavened cakes used by Israelites.

Not a god or a witch, but related:

Barlaam and Josaphat, two commonly-accepted saints of the medieval period were based directly on the story of the Buddha (Siddhartha). They came about basically as the result of his story spreading like a game of telephone from India through the Middle East, and Orthodox Christians modified the story to be about a prince who was shielded from Christianity and converted by a monk.

Excellent addition. Would never have found this with my current search terms - and completely relevant (were one to, say, want to conceal a non-Christian devotional within a Christian context).

My familiarity with Santeria would pursue ancestor-worship (which jives well with "gods turned into mortal saints" vs "mortal heroes who became deified") - and the Buddha and Bodhisattvas certainly fit into this framework.

The mostly Slavic saints Elijah/Ilya the Thunderer and st. Vitus are replacements for the Slavic god(s) Perun and Sventovit. In the case of Vitus, Saint Vitus/Sventyi Vit basically sounds the same as Sventovit.

Saint George's story of dragonslaying is a re-telling of the PIE myth basically.

The legend says that the guy who first wrote down that story was apparently a monk from the monastery of Saint-Saba who brought back the story from "Ethiopia" (there was a lot of confusion at the time between India and Ethiopia), and then it was translated "directly from Indian" by a Georgian monk, then translated in Latin in the 11th century. It then spread quickly in the West, possibly helped by hopes of a Christian kingdom in the East, a potential ally against Muslims, often dubbed the kingdom of Prester John.

For a while there was a theory that the syncretism was done by Nestorian communities in India and along the Silk Road, and then spread directly by them through pilgrimages, but since we have found fragments of similar legends in persian, arab, and then first versions of the story in georgian, it's more probable the story of the Buddha just spread naturally and people thought he was a cool guy. When Marco Polo visited Sri Lanka a while later, he visited Adam's Peak where there is a supposed footprint of the Buddha that local Christians venerate as the footprint of Adam. He rejected that theory and after being told the story of the Buddha concluded that the guy venerated here, that he calls Sagamoni Burcan (a deformation of an appellation of Buddha) was definitely a great guy that would have been a saint if he had been a Christian.

It's definitely a fascinating story. If you can read French, there's a great little book on it, pic related. Most of what I said here is just paraphrasing from it.

You might also find interesting the story of the Kakure Kirishitan, the "Hidden Christians" of Japan.

Portuguese and Spanish missionaries had a lot of success in Japan in the 16th century, among both the people (who were given hope by this foreign religion) and the aristocracy (then in a struggle for power, many converting in hope of securing alliances and trade with Europeans). There was always suspicion, restrictions, persecution, but then the Shogunate outright banned Christianity in 1620 and Christians had to go into hiding, and mass scale persecution really started especially after a failed rebellion in 1632.

Japan then closed down under the Sakoku policy. But these Christians, now into hiding, never stopped practicing their faith, in caves or by using prayers that sounded like Buddhist mantras, statues of Mary that looked like bodhisattvas, transmitting the traditions from father to son. But entirely separated from the Church, they started to have weird practices like forms of ancestor worship, essentially syncretising traditional Japanese beliefs with Christianity.

When Japan opened to the West again, the ban on Christianity was lifted and missionary work started again. When the first new church in Japan was built by French missionaries in 1873 in Nagasaki, tens of thousands of Christians came out of hiding and rejoined the Church, abandoning their old practices. The pope called it a miracle in the East. But some refused to do so, and they are now close to extinction.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirishitan
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakure_Kirishitan
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Japan

There's a great novel about their struggle called "Silence" by Shusaku Endo. You should check it out. It's been adapted by Scorsese recently and the adaptation is pretty good too.

Not that user, but he's talking about the association of Dionysus with Cybele,

Excellent thread bump