Is Christianity an inherently masochistic religion?

You don't live in the world God created.

You live in the world God created and men and angels ruined.

If you want to live in a world God created, forever, with him, you have to ask.

You have to bend the knee.

All of these horrible things that you see happening? They're all a result of people rebelling against God, starting with Adam. Before Adam rebelled and joined satan, the world was paradise. No death, no pain, no sickness, no deformities, no disease, no evil, no sin. Man and God walked together in the Garden of Eden and collaborated on this creation.

You say you hate sin and the results of sin?

I guarantee you God hates it more than you do, and did more than you can ever do to fix the problem. Right now, you're a cost to God, and not a benefit. Remain in your rebellion and you will be dealt with.

While the rest of us go on into eternity living with God in a situation even better than the Garden of Eden, collaborating with God on whatever he's going to be working on next.

Those dead babies you pretend to care about? God takes them as his own, and provides for them forever. What do you do?

>utopianism

It's literally a blood cult.
A bronze age desert blood cult.

>all things being equal, it's better to make up a story and believe a lie than to just accept things the way they are and work towards figuring out the truth
Don't worry, all those misguided 'humanists' will learn the Bible is the truth one way or another. It only takes time.

OT iron chariots. Thousands of years before Jesus rose from the dead.

But you simpletons just puke out what they tell you to puke out.

>Bronze age ended 1000 years before Jesus was even born
Holy fuck why are these fucking idiots with ZERO historical literacy allowed to post their opinions

OT:
>kill your son
>kill those men, women and children
>kill their animals too while you're at it
You're right, that's not a blood cult at all.

> how can a man and Angels, being created beings, ruin anything that the Creator made? I assume you believe that God's will is absolute. Therefore nothing happens without his consent. There are no rules that God has to play by save those he chooses to follow of his own volition. Therefore whatever God wants to be, will be. One must therefore come to The Logical conclusion that God wants the world to be exactly how it is, suffering and all since he has the power to stop it and does not. If he does not have the power to stop it then he's no God and deserves no worship.

>those dead babies you pretend to care about
So it's impossible to care about the trustees against children unless you believe in an invisible all-powerful being? That's just absurd.

If you really believe all this magical Paradise land shit then it seems to me like you are medicating yourself with religion in order to deal with life's brutal truths. You can't have rational discussions with people who have convinced themselves that a whole series of literally impossible shit is true.

Stone/Bronze/Iron age has different dates for different regions

OT is no longer part of Cristianity now?

>OT
Backpeddle more, faggot

Nice non-argument, faggot

The desert part is also bullshit. While deserts are significant in the Bible, most of Israel/Holy Land is typical Mediterranean region and not a desert.

So in your view this life is the only one you have and you're not doing absolutely everything in your power to stop the deaths occurring right now, instead you're shitposting on Veeky Forums. Doesn't that make you an incredibly monstrous person?

Nope.

Just God judging the Amorites wicked and evil after giving them 400 years to repent, which they never did.

400 years while his own people were slaves in Egypt.

Blood is important to your life. I'm not sure why you don't think it is, even on a brute beast level.

Yes, they ruined it by sinning, by rebelling against God, and by bringing on all of the natural consequences of sin including death, pain, disease, etc.

Yes, I'm comforted knowing what my eternal destination is going to be like.

And horrified at what yours is going to be like.

Which is why I'm suggesting you change your mind and stop rebelling against the Almighty.

No, because I am not a God and I have no power to stop all these things. But if I did I would, which still puts me light-years ahead of your God.

And the power you do have, you're not using at all.

But what God's doing, that's not enough.

>The gospels are always talking about rejoicing when you go through hard times.

Hebrews 12:4
>In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
>And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says, "My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
>because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son."
>Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father?
>If you are not disciplined - and everyone undergoes discipline - then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all.

>I have no power to stop all these things.
Bullshit fucking copout you spineless worm. According to your own beliefs humans are the ONLY ones with the power to stop these things, it doesn't take a god to stop people killing each other it takes the effort of people. Your own philosophy says that the only way to stop the horrors of the world is for people to do it and yet you sit at your PC like the useless piece of shit you are saying "Ugh, it's too hard, I can't do anything"

Again, that makes you a monstrous piece of shit. I'm sure you really care about all those victims of war a whole lot considering you're doing fuck all to help them. Meaningless virtue signalling, you are the cancer of the world.

You'd prefer a sadistic religion?

>Meaningless virtue signalling, you are the cancer of the world.

Huzzah!

How exactly does one "stop being abused" in a world that is rife with suffering? Will babies stop being born deformed or wars cease if we cease to be "masochistic" Christians?

No, he's saying you just shouldn't care at all. He's a sociopath

Says the hypocrital monotheist dog barking tough words behind a computer.

In what way are you suffering?

Are you attempting to divide one radish to feed your 7 children?

Are you in a hospital ward having had your legs amputated, but the gangrene is still creeping north?

Are you being held somewhere against your will?

How are you suffering?

Boy are you terrible at following threads.

Maybe not making suffering a virtue would be a start.

No, that's Buddhism. Denial of suffering by sheer effort of will.

And completely useless in the afterlife.

0 Bible results for “suffering virtue.”

I don't understand what that has to do with anything.

Read the beatitudes.

and that will prevent children from being born deformed and developing bone cancer?

Why are you comparing me, a man, to God? Isn't that blasphemy?

The point is this. An all-powerful being who is supposedly composed of naught but love allowing millions to suffer when in theory this being would have the power to stop it instantly and, the inclination seeing as how it is shpposedly a manifestation of love.

If God wanted beings that would worship him he could have just created them. I've been told this is what the angels are anyway. But instead of this he chose to create beings, give them free will, then punish them in an eternity of torture if they use that free will not to devote the entire day of their existence to him.

Sounds pretty abusive on his part and pretty masochistic on the part of anybody that would choose to be involved in such tripe.

Yes, because then we will start being social-Darwinists and abort them first.

Not hypocritical because I believe God has a plan. You on the other hand believe that there is no higher power and therefore the only way to stop human suffering is by the actions of humans. So by your own logic not dedicating your life to stopping suffering makes you a worthless human being. You're the hypocrite here, your philosophy says one thing and then you don't even bother to live by it

You don't believe in God, why are you pretending to believe in blasphemy?

There's an user on line bitching about all the suffering in the world.

Said user seems to not be suffering at all, nor alleviating the suffering of any other single human being on planet earth.

So the question is, why the suffering strawman?

Blessed are they who suffer

--Things Jesus never said.

Read these from Luke:

Woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort.
Woe to you who are well fed now, for you will go hungry.
Woe to you who laugh now, for you will mourn and weep.
Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you, for that is how their ancestors treated the false prophets.

That's my point exactly. If you're already burning in a fire don't try to put it out by pouring gasoline on yourself. Life is brutal cold and hard. You don't need to complicate that by convincing yourself some omnipotent being is calling the shots and doing all this bullshit for some reason that in some way, somehow, in some unknowable way, is for your own benefit.

Please give me a break.

Ah, well then carry on.

>Why are you comparing me, a man, to God?
I'm not comparing you to anything, you don't believe in God, do you? I'm saying if you believe there is no higher power than the ONLY way to stop human suffering is by human intervention, and if you're not doing your part to help that intervention that makes you an amoral piece of garbage. If you want to explain to me how you can reconcile the idea that there will be no salvation and the world just is without doing your upmost to change it for the better you're welcome, but I'm just going to assume you're a virtue signalling trash pile who doesn't actually care about all the suffering you lay at the feet of God then promptly go back to ignoring when God is out of the picture.

In short your argument is you expect God to help, but if there is no God then the only one who can actually help is YOU, so why aren't you helping?

If angels did not have free will, how did they stage a coup?

If you are not doing anything to alleviate anyone's suffering, why are you saying that God is not doing enough to alleviate anyone's suffering?

Look, here's the deal. Everyone suffers something.

You can suffer alone, or you can suffer being comforted by the Holy Spirit of god, a constant companion in times of trouble, and literally called the Comforter.

I'm saying to put things in the perspective of your own belief system

>Why are you comparing me, a man, to God? Isn't that blasphemy?

Do you see how confused and conflicted your posts are?

I want to know if this is what you are really dealing with: "How can I trust God, when so many people are suffering, and he has the power to end it all?"

Is that where you're coming from?

Sounds to me like you're the one advocating for masochism then as your worldview requires learning to endure suffering for suffering's sake, with no hope of respite, while Christianity at least softens the blow and offers the hope of just recompense.

The point of the thread was is Christianity a masochistic religion

How you got to the point of me being a pile of virtue signaling garbage because I don't do my utmost to end all suffering on Earth is beyond me.

Why should anyone do what you yourself are avoiding doing?

It should occur to you that maybe you have been mistaken this entire time.

Let me ask you something. In your deepest heart of hearts, now I'm talking about the TRUE you, do you honestly believe without fail that there is such a thing as a holy spirit or an afterlife or a God or Paradise after you die?

Honestly, you REALLY believe that?

These are reasonable and sensible points that none of the christards in this thread have bothered to address. The xtian religion is vile and the world will be a better place when it finally dies.

Yes, if by "believe" you mean "know it to be true".

kek

Careful what you wish for.

I'm not really. I'm just saying that if you take a moment step back and look at it the whole God human dynamics could be seen as some masochistic morality play, mea culpas abound.

I'm saying that if you got the idea in your head that there's some omnipotent being whose every action is right and good, who can do no wrong, and at the same time has your best interest at heart, how do you reconcile that with the unimaginable suffering that occurs worldwide. That's all

By distinguishing what is God's express will, that which he says he will do, from God's permissive will, that which is done by beings he gave sovereignty to and allows to express their own sovereignty.

In other words, in order for us to exercise our free will as free will moral agents, God has to take a step back and retreat into his sovereignty to allow things that he would never do or condone to happen.

These things that you hate? They did not happen in the Garden of Eden, but afterwards. And they will not happen in the Kingdom of God, or afterwards.

They're a temporary situation caused by sin that we endure on our way to eternity, where all of this garbage will be dealt with and then forgotten. Because all sin was dealt with on the cross at Calvary, by the Man of Sorrows, the Christ, who suffered more than the collective suffering of all mankind, personally.

Do you hear yourself? There's no escaping either way you go, life is full of pain sickness and death and for many unimaginable suffering. There's no way around that either way you go.

I suppose it doesn't matter if you choose to take the opiate of religion to take the edge off of life seeing as how we're all going to end up in the ground together anyway. I'm just saying if you want to live a life of clarity, honesty and Truth you have to discard all these things that cloud your vision and clear thinking. I would say nothing is more antithetical to rational thought than religion.

>I would say nothing is more antithetical to rational thought than religion.

Amen.

Eschew all religion in favor of having a personal relationship with your Creator, Jesus Christ.

ok, thanks.

The point is that you're guilty of even worse than what you're accusing Christianity of. Suffering is a part of the world, it's probably something we won't be able to overcome for a long time, if ever. Christians believe that suffering is a trial people are put through, and that people are rewarded by God at the end in proportion to how much suffering they endured on Earth.

You believe there is no God, that the only way to alleviate human suffering is through human intervention, so by your own beliefs every second you do not spend attempting to alleviate human suffering is a second where you are actively endorsing that suffering.

If there is no God then the blame for the suffering shifts from him to you. So now you need to explain why you are not guilty of the exact same thing you accuse God of. Until you can do that then your argument is intellectually dishonest.

>the mental gymnastics

well, im done. You get the gold buddy.

I have to say, I absolutely love not being the smartest cookie in the thread. I truly hope your search for the truth continues, and I will pray for its success.

Atheists live a life of anything but clarity, honesty and truth. 99.9% of atheists live a meaningless hedonistic life where they meander from one pleasure to the next with no goal, no introspection, no purpose. Nihilism is the inescapable dead end of materialism, unless you want to attach some metaphysical sense of purpose to your own will, but then you're eschewing rationality for comfort which is exactly what you accuse the religious of.

It's likely I have been thinking about these things for a very long time. and they've very complicated issues. I would encourage you to keep thinking about why God allows suffering to exist, and what the purpose might be, the origin, and the answer.

I don't have to explain why I'm not guilty of anything because I don't claim to be the moral authority of Earth and the most powerful motherfucker to ever exist. ou can't hold me to the same standard as God I think you would know that.

I never claimed to be any moral authority only that I would stop suffering if I could by willing it like God could theoretically. I never claimed that I was a saint or that my goal in life was to end all human suffering. I'm just saying if a being set himself up as the end-all-be-all headnigga in charge of the universe, then you got some questions to answer when you claim to be love but allow all this bullshit to happen on the daily.

And don't give me the bullshit about how it's really man's fault. If you didn't want man to Rebelle you shouldn't have given him free will. If you give him free will, you shouldn't punish him for exercising it. It's like the abusive husband syndrome. There's an excuse for whatever he does, and somehow he's aaaaalways right no matter how atrocious things get.

Never seen anyone #rekt this hard.

>I suppose it doesn't matter if you choose to take the opiate of religion to take the edge off of life seeing as how we're all going to end up in the ground together anyway.

Explain to me again how it's Christianity that's the masochistic belief system, when yours is the one that demands humans embrace suffering and despair in hopes of experiencing true "clarity"?

Do you choose to undergo surgery without sedation as well to further your pursuit of honesty and truth of experience as well?

Life on Earth is not the be all, end all. God has an infinite perspective. The existence of earthly suffering results in an even greater metaphysical good.

>those numbers
whered you get your data, or are you just making shit up again.

>meaningless hedonistic life where they meander from one pleasure to the next with no goal, no introspection, no purpose

Who's to say that's not what life is all about? When you impose meaning on something that has no intrinsic meaning how can that be said to be living with clarity or honesty?

Lookit, if you want to believe and all that fairytale shit that's fine, 100% fine. But the answers to Life's questions are much much much much much more difficult period having all the answers lay down for you in a book it's convenient, but not very realistic.
Don't be lazy. Take the long way home. Figure out for yourself what this existence means, explore on your own the mysteries of life, don't just take a single book and use it as gospel,no pun intended.

theres not many certainties in life but I'm willing to bet that whatever is really going on in existence is far more profound than anything found in a book written by ancient sheepherders.

Christianity is a religion of hope. Hope that the suffering endured by those on earth was not in vain, that they will be comforted by the Father in Heaven. Atheism is the reverse. The belief that all suffering is in vain and your reward for suffering is eternal non-existence.

>When you impose meaning on something that has no intrinsic meaning how can that be said to be living with clarity or honesty
By definition that means no-one can live with clarity of honesty because all people overlay meaning on the intrinsically meaningless.

>do this
>do that
Why?
What does your religion of sensual masochism offer me that I should convert to it?

I'm saying that life is suffering regardless. But when you subscribe to a moral system that punishes you for thinking rationally and tries to scare you out of disbelieving with the threat of Eternal fucking torment then that's not any alleviation of suffering that's adding to it. It's like when you're a baby and your new teeth are coming in. Everybody goes through it comma it's disgustingly painful, but that's just the way it is. Now applying this same scenario to life, the Christian would be the baby that's going through teething but somehow convinces itself but it's all his fault no matter what he does, that it was his fault before he was born and that by just being himself he deserves to die unless he devotes the entirety of his being to some fictional character imagines in his head. Then he takes an ice pick and starts jamming it in his gums.

Naturally we're going off the assumptions that in this scenario babies can think and decide to do shit and are dexterous enough to manipulate an ice pic with precision.

I'm not an American, or any sort of New Worlder. I say this because it automatically makes my Christianity...different, I'd say? There is something very...aggressive about western European and in extension, New World Christianity. It heavily intermingled with their hectic lifestyles and "get rich fast" "philosophy"

It's no secret it takes a pinch of masochism to be faithful
The Lord has the power to stop all sin. This is my belief. But His role is not that of an omnipotent "Earthly policeman". This response might seem somewhat dismissively surrendering.

Why would the Lord police us, if the teachings stipulate "free will"? Is that not a gift every Christian in the world can agree on, was passed to us? Go ask Christians and see whether their response would be "God gave us free will"

What goes hand in hand with the aforementioned "masochism" is internalisation and self-reflection. It is the pillar of New Testament.
A society without these doesn't require policing, because it is futile. If the Christian can't internalise, self reflect,
The Lord is as much personal, as he is "public" (the one who goes around, untangles, saves, intervenes and such)

All in all, free will is the greatest gift, a test wrapped in a gift. You need to bring the Earth to the Lord, not Lord to the Earth

We would say that you have the form of the religion, but deny its power.

Bring the Earth to the Lord?

Have you read the Revelation?

I don't give two tugs of a dead dog's cock what you do.

I'm just saying that if you're interested in clear and rational thinking and in finding out for yourself what's really going on in this Human Experience we all find ourselves in, you'd be better served ditching religion and doing some deep introspection and observations of the physical world to try and suss out what the deal is

>So when babies are born horribly deformed, when young children are brutally killed in wars and natural disasters, when some sick fuck abuses a child, when children in Africa are forced to become murderous soldiers for the local Warlord, and a million other despicable things, "it's all okay because it's all part of God's plan." What absolute twaddle.

That's not a part of God's plan past giving man Free Will. Those people are misrepresenting nature, which is neutral, and human evil, which is a byproduct of free will, as all part of some elaborate plot. The plot is not elaborate. Nature is neutral and humans have free will. That IS the plan. The only evidence of God physically acting on Earth is Jesus.

>The gospels are always talking about rejoicing in spite of hard times. They denounce sexual degeneracy

ftfy

>The only evidence of God physically acting on Earth is Jesus.

> the 10 commandments, showing His back to Moshe, god LITERALLY stopping time for Joshua so he could kill all his enemies, the Flood, Sodom and Gommorah, etc.

thou art wrong...eth.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe I've already done that and realized that this antichristian secular humanist sensual nonsense is a dysgenic waste of time?

>Bring the Earth to the Lord?
>Have you read the Revelation?
There's the tail and then there's the head. Where we are, in the middle, up the tail, or close to the head, no one knows. That's why I personally avoid Revelations talk.

My post means, in short: "What can a man do with his life(style), during his life? Because I believe bringing the Earth to the Lord means following the Faith, truly giving yourself.

The power of faith, not religion, is within its followers. If its followers can uphold its code, they are already on the path of bringing the Earth to the Lord

This is my opinion, and it might not be correct at all, so I apologise, but you seem too "eager", looking in the distance. As do most people in this thread. They're discussing outlines, like it's a "battle of their time"
You are the Lord's temple

That's your choice to make.

So why are you so into sado-masochism?

Explain yourself.

But Christianity is the religion that would tell the baby that it's suffering is only temporary and leads to a better existence. Your ideology on the other hand would tell the baby that it is suffering for no reason, that's its suffering will never stop, and it doesn't matter if the baby thinks it's not fair because it's happening anyway.

(you)

When will these threads end? We literally had a thread about this last night with far stronger arguments in regards to suffering. Ugh.
The atheists are way too triggered by that creationist troll.

GET A LOAD OF THIS GUY

>israel not a desert

>So it's impossible to care about the trustees against children unless you believe in an invisible all-powerful being? That's just absurd.

no he's implying you are begging sympathy using children as a tool for your shitty argument.

>If you really believe all this magical Paradise land shit

keep in mind magic was a tool for man to cope with science they had not learned quite yet. Replace "magical" with "scientific" and all of a sudden it seems more realistic to you. Magical Paradise land = lying to yourself, but Scientific Utopia = some noble creation of intelligent humans. Same shit, different words from a different era.

>medicating yourself with religion in order to deal with life's brutal truths.

At least we have common ground in believing life is brutal on it's own without human interaction. Yes, some people medicate with religion in order to feel better, but most people here aren't. Most people here tend to not throw out the baby with the bathwater. That means we read the scripts of old and combine it with the scripts of new. Science and religion go hand in hand. At the end of the day religion is just words written in a book by a man named Paul two thousand years ago. Don't mistake that part as me not believing in God or Jesus, as much as it's me acknowledging Paul isn't either God or Jesus, meaning there could be error in his words. Not only that, but there could be error in the many translations of the original doctrine. Many such cases of corruption.

>You can't have rational discussions with people who have convinced themselves that a whole series of literally impossible shit is true.

so build a time machine and take a camera and go record everything that happened back then and prove none of it happened. Point is that religion was the science of its day as well as the history book of its day, much of which was lost in Alexandria, so we go by what we have. Many religious leaders today accept science and encourage it.

you're immature. You think hedonism is everything there's to life? Why not live drugged the shit out of yourself then?

That's right, because there's something that makes you want to truly experience fullfilling experiences. I suggest you read actual Philosophy instead of relying on scientism and materialism as your only explanation for the universe.

While the Holy Spirit does tabernacle in me, I don't ignore the part of the bible that is unfolding as we post. Even godless people are talking about the end of the world as we know it, and we've had the blueprints since 95 AD.

There's a school of thought that believes that once Christianity takes over the world, that then Jesus will come back and establish his kingdom. That belief appears in your posts. It was killed by WWI and annihilated by WWII, and it will not survive WWIII.

The power is God's. Always has been. When I witness miracles, it is the power of God on display, not my faith. My faith is accounted to me as righteousness by a gracious and merciful God, but the power is his. It's a collaboration. I do what I can do, and he does what only he can do.

We are, and have been, in a spiritual war for over 6000 years. That war rages on right now, and is coming to a head, soon. Pretty soon you won't think you're looking too far into the distance; you'll see that today is the day.

just fyi love your arguments

You have a really hard time following threads. Just an observation. You keep asking the guy who says he's not religious why you should join his religion.