I have Done extensive research about the ethnicity of the rus and their raid(s) on constantinople

I'm not sure I understand your point.

Varangian chieftains such as Rurik were definitely authority figures in the early years of Kievan Rus. The common story in Novgorod is that he and his retinue were "invited" to rule over the local population - the Primary Chronicle puts forth the notion that this invitation was done in order to introduce an impartial ruler who would be above petty tribal rivalries. Others have speculated that it's a euphemism for conquest.

In any event, they were powerful men. You can't really think about it in terms of nationality, it would be wholly inaccurate to say medieval Russia was a client state of Scandinavia. Men like Rurik would not have seen themselves as foreign occupiers, although they were certainly not Slavic. That is to say, the princes who initially commanded most of the wealth and military power in the region were themselves Varangian or directly descended from the same. You don't need to downplay their impact - it goes without saying that the vast majority of their subjects in Kievan Rus weren't like them, and the Nordic bloodlines were probably bred out of existence within a few short generations.

On the most basic level, yes, they were Norse/Swedish but predominantly Swedish.

However, by the late 10th and early 11th century, this has changed. Much like in England and Frankia, the Vikings begin to assimilate and become part of the Rus. It is important to know that the RPC continues to make the distinction between the Rus and Norsemen.

Also, while I can't claim to have read this whole thread, you should update your reading list. I'm finishing up my master's thesis on the Varangians and I've never even heard of that author.

If you really want a good discussion of the topic you need to read The Origins of Rus by Omeljan Pritsak, this book is by far one of the most definitive published on the subject despite its age. If you're looking for more about the Varangians themselves then I would recommend the Varangians of Byzantium which I believe is translated by Sigfus Blondal and contains and extremely informative section on the Norse-Rus relationship.

But where did the name 'Rhos' originate from? Was it what the local Slavs called themselves or did it originate from the Varangians? And what did the word mean?

> The common story in Novgorod is that he and his retinue were "invited" to rule over the local population

Yes, we’ve all heard the story; ignorant Slav cavemen “invite” strong and wise Germanic ubermensch to rule over them, an account of a mythical figure whose existence wasn’t recorded until 200+ years later and then used as propaganda by Germans to justify their colonization of Slavic lands, right up to today.

see

Sure, what is your argument then? Most sources say they were primarily Norse and the source you have is unspecific

>extensive research
>didn't even finish a wikipedia article
>even considers Wikipedia a credible source
You disgust me

First off, I made a point of addressing the nuance in that account. Perhaps Rurik and his followers truly were invited to Novgorod, perhaps it's a revisionism to gloss over a violent takeover. There's really no point in taking umbrage here.

Furthermore, it wasn't 200+ years. You can find mention of Rurik and his successors in the First Novgorod Chronicle, which was written approximately 120 years after his alleged death. If you want earlier primary sources than that, good luck finding them. The Russian were still writing on unbound pieces of bark at that point.

What, exactly, are you getting at?

>The Russian were still writing on unbound pieces of bark at that point.

*The Rus, sorry.

Pathetic, isn't it? I wish people would stop this retarded shit. At the bare minimum have a solid reason as to what you believe and why. But this retard claims to have done extensive research and didn't do shit.

Do people even know what research is anymore besides googling for info that agrees with their views already?

What
-Said.

Also, this Source seems credible enough
history-fiction.ru/get-book-file.php?id=3632

It's wellknown they were "Swedes"

What is the point of this thread? OP just wanting to show people he read a wikipedia article?

> That statement isn't specific, he Said magnitude of varangians and others, but you don't know how large the difference was between that magnitude of varangians and others.

Considering that the Varangians are mentioned among 12 other groups, it is pretty safe to assume that they were far from the majority.

Be careful OP. Insinuating that Rurik was Germanic in any way gets people here EXTREMELY butthurt.

Again, It's not specific enough. And It's logical that plenty of them would be there considering that was their way of life, maybe not the majority but probably the largest group among them

> Again, It's not specific enough.

It kinda is, you just don't like what it implies.

> And It's logical that plenty of them would be there considering that was their way of life

It was 1000km away from Scandinavia, we have no idea how many could be there, could have been 30 dudes for all we know.

> maybe not the majority but probably the largest group among them

Probably?

Possibly at best.

The Rus were mostly Slavs with a Scandinavian royalty that also slavenized quite quickly.

No we wuzing possible here.

>It kinda is, you just don't like what it implies.
>It was 1000km away from Scandinavia, we have no idea how many could be there, could have been 30 dudes for all we know.
And for all we know it could've been scandinavian majority and the remaining minority being the other mentioned

>The Rus were mostly Slavs with a Scandinavian royalty that also slavenized quite quickly.
That statement was true in the mid 10th century and after, not before.

Also all the others were volunteers for a scandi led, scandi cause. Why would a Huge majority of foreigners sign up for that?

The Rurikids weren't Slavic until mid 11th century.

> The Rurikids weren't Slavic until mid 11th century.

lol, who is Sviatoslav I of Kiev?

Also, Igor of Kiev already married Olga of Pskov(a Slav) in the early 900s, making the Rurikids already half Slav by the 910s at the latest.

Also;

"He thus arrived with his Krivichians before Smolensk, captured the city, and set up a garrison there." - Primary Chronicle

His Krivichians...hmmm.

> And for all we know it could've been scandinavian majority and the remaining minority being the other mentioned

No, because that makes no sense.

They were deep in Slavic territory, surrounded by Slavic tribes and princes, what you are arguing is ridiculous.

They were Slavs, deal with it.

> That statement was true in the mid 10th century and after, not before.

How come they worship Slavic gods already in the 10th century?

That just happened at once?

lol

> Also all the others were volunteers for a scandi led, scandi cause. Why would a Huge majority of foreigners sign up for that?

It was scandi led, but not a scandi cause.

It was an army of the Rus, and most of the Rus were Slavs, so it was their political entity and their war.

Ro. It means "row", as in rowing a boat. "Ros" were simply the "people who rowed [boats]". They are descendants of ancient boat culture peoples who preceded the Vendels.

It's silly to discuss if the Rus who went to Constantinople were "Slavic" or "Swedes" or "Finns", they probably had genetic and cultural influences from all those cultures, but it's a known fact that the Ros / Rus who became the founders of Russia came from what is today Roslagen in Sweden. This fact makes people butthurt for some reason.

The so called rus was primarily swedish during the 9th and early 10th century, that's a fact. Although demographics in the sieges might have been different.

Most of the slavs didn't want to go fight for a scandi cause because it was a scandi cause and they were volunteers simply

Also, that last point is horrendous.

The 30 years war Sweden had tons of hired mercenaries, more than swedes. Does that Make the cause let's say scottish/german instead of swedish? No it doesnt

> The so called rus was primarily swedish during the 9th and early 10th century, that's a fact.

No, it is not a fact.

As I already posted a primary source describing the scandinavian varangians as only one of 12 mentioned Rus groups lol.

> Although demographics in the sieges might have been different.

Wtf does that even mean lol?

> Most of the slavs didn't want to go fight for a scandi

lol what?

You are just talking out of your ass.

> because it was a scandi cause and they were volunteers simply

How is the weather like there, up your own ass?

> Also, that last point is horrendous.

No, your inability to accept that they were Slavs is.

> The 30 years war Sweden had tons of hired mercenaries, more than swedes.

>Comparing the Rus as a people with an army assembled over 800 years later

> Being this retarded

> Does that Make the cause let's say scottish/german instead of swedish? No it doesnt

lol, you just contradicted yourself with that idiotic argument.

So, in the 30 years war, the Swedes were only a minority in their army hahaha, yet you deny the same being the case during the Rus, fucking hell.

Okay Wladyslavomirovich Brezhnev, you just ignore the fact that the majority of sources contradicts you and that your "proof" is extremely unspecific.

> Okay Wladyslavomirovich Brezhnev

I am Iranian lol.

> you just ignore the fact that the majority of sources contradicts you

No they don't lol.

> and that your "proof" is extremely unspecific.

Yeah, the fucking Rus Primary Chornicle...written by the Rus, quite unspecific.

>So, the rus, including their role in their first two attacks om constantinople were mainly swedish/Norse right?
Yes

>I am iranian lol
Russian puppet
>No they don't lol
Show more sources than that unspecific one
>Yeah, the fucking Rus Primary Chornicle...written by the Rus, quite unspecific.
I'm not saying the Source is incredibly unreliable, i'm saying that the information they put out is unspecific and doesn't give exact or even approximate numbers

Anyone know when the Rus started to integrate with Cumans? The cumans seem to have a fairly interesting history in east Europe. Considereimg the fact that they were also late comers

> Yes

No.

>Show more sources than that unspecific one

I already provided two direct primary sources, your turn now.

> I'm not saying the Source is incredibly unreliable

lol, it is the Rus Primary Chronicle ffs

> i'm saying that the information they put out is unspecific and doesn't give exact or even approximate numbers

It does though, the varangians are mentioned as only 1 out of 12 groups lol.

Just deal with it and stop crying like a bitch because you cannot we wuz the Rus.

> Anyone know when the Rus started to integrate with Cumans?

They didn't.

To my knowledge, the Rus only integrated some Pecheneg tribes.

However, the Cumans themselves are described as basically caucasians, some sources even stated them having blonde haird with blue eyes, so they could have easily assimilated into some Rus communities among the Slavs quite quickly.

> Yes

No.

>Show more sources than that unspecific one

I already provided two direct primary sources, your turn now.

> I'm not saying the Source is incredibly unreliable

lol, it is the Rus Primary Chronicle ffs

> i'm saying that the information they put out is unspecific and doesn't give exact or even approximate numbers

It does though, the varangians are mentioned as only 1 out of 12 groups lol.

Just deal with it and stop crying like a bitch because you cannot we wuz the Rus.

> Anyone know when the Rus started to integrate with Cumans?

They didn't.

To my knowledge, the Rus only integrated some Pecheneg tribes, everyone else turkic they slaughtered or enslaved.

However, the Cumans themselves are described as basically caucasians, some sources even stated them having blonde haird with blue eyes, so they could have easily assimilated into some Rus communities among the Slavs quite quickly.

Aren't the pecheneg tribes and cumans only somewhat related?
Also to my understanding the Cumans are modern day Hungarians and the pechenegs became ,what, Ukraine?

There are extant branches of the Rurikids today whose Y haplogroups are typical of Eastern Swedes.

Pretty sure you're just baiting by now, but whatever

>1 out of 12 groups
A little Lesson of math maybe? Let's say the army attacking constantinople consists out of 2000 men. The 11 groups other than the scandis could Make up 100 men each. That's 1100 men out of 2000
Let's subtract those numbers with Each others
2000-1100=900 remaining men left. All of the remaining could've Easily have been scandinavian.

> Aren't the pecheneg tribes and cumans only somewhat related?

They shared a culture but they were geographically separated, the issue is also that Pechenegs moved westward a lot earlier than the Cumans did, because, for some reason, the Pechenegs loved to wage war against other Turkic tribes instead of settled peoples.

Later, it was was exactly the Rus who later exterminated the Pecheneg arch enemy, the Khazars.

> Also to my understanding the Cumans are modern day Hungarians and the pechenegs became ,what, Ukraine?

Some Cumans moved to Hungary and became Hungarians yes, but Pechenegs were quickly assimilated wherever they moved, from Armenia, to Anatolia and Rus lands as well.

Its credible as a survey. You want more than that.

> There are extant branches of the Rurikids today whose Y haplogroups are typical of Eastern Swedes.

lol no, the current branches of the Rurikids show a Slavic and Finnish genetic grouping;

familytreedna.com/public/rurikid/default.aspx?section=news

freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mozhayski/teksty/ydna.html

Top

kek

amirite?

> A little Lesson of math maybe? Let's say the army attacking constantinople consists out of 2000 men. The 11 groups other than the scandis could Make up 100 men each. That's 1100 men out of 2000

Holy shit you are pathetic.

What if the groups are all of roughly equal size?

Which would be the most obvious case.

Than the Varangians make up less than 8% of the forces lol.

You are just a sad little frustrated we wuzer that cannot accept the Rus were Slavs.

Ah ok thanks
The Turkic tribes have weird messy histories

Some valid points were raised here. The only thing I'd like to point out is that the names being Norse doesn't automatically mean that the people who bore them were Norse as well. There's plenty of examples from history where either the conquerors started assuming the names of their subjects, or the subjects started adopting the culture of their conquerors.
Not to mention various other more cultural examples - you don't assume early medieval Christian clergy to be Jewish or Roman purely because they most often bore Biblical or Latin names.

I mean, obviously it IS pretty likely that those people were Norse, just that it's not the only possibility.

As an example, this is the facial reconstruction of Mostich, a Bulgarian aristocrat in Xth century who bore an obviously Slavic name.

While this is Bulgarian tsar Kaloyan, who was baptised as Ioannis/Ivan. The name Kaloyan derived from the Greek expression for John the Handsome (Kallos Ioannis).

While this is Bulgarian tsar Kaloyan, who was baptised as Ioannis/Ivan. The name Kaloyan derived from the Greek expression for John the Handsome (Kallos Ioannis).

> As an example, this is the facial reconstruction of Mostich

...and he looks like an old grumpy dinaric grampa.

Bulgarians have basically no trace of Turkic genes in them;

Sena Karachanak, Viola Grugni, Simona Fornarino, Desislava Nesheva, Nadia Al-Zahery, Vincenza Battaglia, Valeria Carossa, Yordan Yordanov, Antonio Torroni, Angel S. Galabov, Draga Toncheva, and Ornella Semino. "Y-Chromosome Diversity in Modern Bulgarians: New Clues about Their Ancestry." PLoS ONE 8:3 (March 6, 2013): e56779. Following its presentation at conferences in the years 2011 and 2012 (see further below), this Y-DNA study has now been released as an electronic open-access publication. The number of Bulgarian males in the final report is 808, not the 809 or 812 they counted at the conferences, so there must have been problems with 4 of the samples. The study declares, "Only individuals whose fathers were of Bulgarian origin and were born in the country were included in the study.

Excerpts from the Abstract:

"Haplogroups C, N and Q, distinctive for Altaic and Central Asian Turkic-speaking populations, occur at the negligible frequency of only 1.5%." -

"On the whole, in light of the most recent historical studies, which indicate a substantial proto-Bulgarian input to the contemporary Bulgarian people, our data suggest that a common paternal ancestry between the proto-Bulgarians and the Altaic and Central Asian Turkic-speaking populations either did not exist or was negligible."

Only a fucking retard could believe the ''dude ruskies TOTALLY asked foreigners to rule them over!'' that theory was proposed by a german and there is 0 archeological evidence for any norse activity in Russia.

According to Ahmad ibn Fadlan who actually witnessed the fucking Rus that wasn't the case so kill yourself.

>there is 0 archeological evidence for any norse activity in Russia.
Just dropping this in. Norse runes in the Hagia Sophia. Maybe they just flew over Russia instead of going through it on the way down?

>a skull missing half of its bones including the lower jaw and parts around the nose is reconstructed by the communists
>turns out as a mongol
Sounds legit.

> According to Ahmad ibn Fadlan

What about him?

>he he they passed through Russia surely they ruled over them ;)

I drove through Austria so I guess I'm their president.

Shiet nigga we wuz da mighty warriors and shiet killin' monks and pregnant women, runnin' away from soldiers da definition of thug life we only win if we outnumber enemy 15 to 1 but Odin gave us dem besenkenerener power when we are like turnin' into wolves and shiet.

The Rus wiped out exterminated basically every Turkic khaganate from Kiev to the Azov at one point and at least one source implies that efforts were required for them not to reach Bagdad at one point.

>The Rus
>vikings are only tough if they mix with Slavs

NORDIC POWER

TIL VALHALLA

AAAAGH BESERKERERKER 1/67 DANISH AND PROUD

They lived in Eastern Sweden and belonged to the Varangian branch of N1C1, which is distinct from the Finno-Karelian branch which is predominant in Finland today. And if you really want to get into the nitty gritty, their subclade spread to Northern Europe from nomadic Siberians (like the Yakuts) thousands of years ago. They aren't Slavs. They were culturally Norse.

Sviatoslav is a very norse name indeed. I've heard Chinese were North-Southern Swedish too.

Slavicization is a thing. Just like Germanization. Or Romanization.
The fact of the matter is that they lived in Eastern Sweden, came over as Norse warriors, and became Slavicized as a result of cultural assimilation during the course of their 700 year rule over Russia. It happens all the time, especially within that timeframe. If you have a genetic analysis of your Y-haplogroup done, you might be surprised by what you find.

>700 year rule over Russia

sources would be nice

Rurik's reign is traditionally dated to 862.
The last Rurikid Tsar was Vasili IV who reigned up to 1610.

I'm sure Vasili was pure blooded Norse.

Here's your (You) you Russian faggot
Go post more what-aboutisms on /pol/

I'm sure you know more about russian history than Russians.

Generally this seems to be the case, Russians are fed a lot of horseshit. For example a vast majority of Russians believes there was a treaty signed by the USSR and the US about not expanding NATO to the east, no such treaty ever existed but it's still treated as a fact in Russia.

>German said Russia was founded by teh vikangz
>nothing to back it up
>hurr you know nothing about history clearly kraut who lived in 19th century is on point!

it just happens there are no records of any Norse-Slavic battles right? They conquered Russia so swiftly no one had the chance to draw his sword.

Why would there be battles? They were deliberately invited.

>guy who came up with ''Rus were vikings''theory mentions conquests
>no proof of it
>w-why would there be any battles?!

see some major plotholes

Who gives a shit about that guy?

>who gives a shit about guy who claimed Rus are Vikings?!
>thinks Rus are Vikings himself

you have some mental issues aye?

Wasn't the Asen dynasty descended from Cumans? Kaloyan's father or grandfather may have been a Cuman.

> some reason.

funny way of spelling "russian nationalist butthurt"

So you're basically saying we cannot accept the fact that Rus were Vikings if we don't accept every fucking thing that German faggot ever said? Are you braindead?

I guess they just conquered them the good old fashioned way then. Also there are plenty of viking burial sites around Russia and there is anecdotal evidence of them being present there. Only a fucking retard would deny Norse activity there

Many Rus were definitely Swedes. In Östergötland, Sweden, a law from the 12th century mentions people leaving to join the Varangian guard, for example (dont remember what the law was about though)

Jesus I feel like I'm talking with a teenage girl you either pretend to not understand what I'm trying to say or legitimately have some brain damage.

That german faggot is the one who started this whole Rus were Vikings meme if things he said about battles were bullshit what makes you think the ''norse ruled over teh slavs'' part is true?

If there were drakkars or norse weapons scattered around Russia then I would undertand but as far as I know vikings left fuck all there.

No, Primary Chronicle and Byzantine sources is what started this "meme". That German guy merely imported the theory to Russian mainstream, it's outright mentioned in that picture you posted.

Also

>Guy says sky is blue and it rains tractors
>it doesn't rain tractors, therefore the sky isn't blue
This is you. Literally cannot grasp basic logic they teach in high school.

No high school teaches logic anymore.

Logic is unfair to Tyrone and Muhammad due to systemic racism.

Christ you're a special breed of faggot. Just because part of his theory doesn't make sense doesn't mean he's totally wrong. We have sources that already support it.

>Just because part of his theory doesn't make sense doesn't mean he's totally wrong

yes it does you cretin in denial show some sources that prove his statements right

>yes it does
See You're dumber than shit.

I'm too lazy to check it. I think it said the men who go to the "Greek lands" to be mercenaries can't inherit lands back home.

> Perhaps Rurik and his followers truly were invited to Novgorod, perhaps it's a revisionism to gloss over a violent takeover.

Or perhaps what is far more likely, is that “Rurik” was a Slav, seeing as the area was and remains overwhelmingly Slavic and there is no trace (even genetic) of Scandinavian culture.

> Furthermore, it wasn't 200+ years.

Rurik supposedly died in 879 and Primary Chronicle wasn’t written until 1113, which was 234 (early medieval) years later.

> What, exactly, are you getting at?

That you're promoting false history and propaganda by claiming that what would be Russia, was founded by Scandinavians.

Rurik was Finnish and the Rus were Finns

At this point we might aswell say that Varangians were founded by some finnic tribes since the old spelling of that word can also mean smth close to "Treasure seekers" in ancient finnic.

But seriously now, it is rather juvenile to argue about any kind of ethnic standing in north eastern europe before 11th century.

In those times the "culture" was VERY superfluous. People around the Baltic sea and along the river routes towards Khazaria interacted often and were very similar as a result.

>but muh different religions and languages
Every single fuckin village virtually had its own language. Villages next door spoke slightly differently . If one went 200 villages in one direction then the 200th village would be so different that people from the original village would not understand it anymore.

Also, cities have always been a melting pot of nearby people and their cultures. Thus, the cities in "The Land of Lake Cities" were composed of slavic and steppe people by majority, but in northern lake cities the population was half slavic half finnic and mostly finnic in far north lake cities.

About the identity of Rus or Varangians. They were simply Rus or Varangian. If a peasant lived close enough to the mercenary band he could join it. Once one was a part of a mercenary band, one was OF that mercenary band.

>the area
You mean Novgorod? It was mixed Finnic/Slavic in Rurik's days.

but the simple truth is scandiniggers are retarded and Rus were Finnish

>Rurik was Finnish and the Rus were Finns
Finns didn't exist in that time.

Neither did Swedes.

Neither did Russians

Neither did arguments :)

> They lived in Eastern Sweden and belonged to the Varangian branch of N1C1

> Varangian branch of N1C1

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

> their subclade spread to Northern Europe from nomadic Siberians (like the Yakuts) thousands of years ago. They aren't Slavs.

Look at the other link retard.

R1's all over the place.

> The fact of the matter is that they lived in Eastern Sweden

Except nearly every one of them was born in Slavlands after Rurik's guys settled there.

I'd be surprised if even Igor knew how to speak his fathers mother tongue.

Rurik(Rorik) was an old east norse speaking finn or fenno-swede and the Rus/Varangians were swedish warriors, traders and settlers.

Swedes were first mentioned in 1st century AD

>finnish guy leading swedish warriors

kek very believable Sven just deal with the fact that you're a fucking nigger and try to rob glorious Finns from their rich history

> Rus/Varangians were swedish warriors, traders and settlers.

Rus is not the same as varangian.

Varangians were the scandinavian dudes within the Rus, the Rus were all the dudes within the rule of the Rus princes, and they were mostly Slavs.