I've become fascinated with the late Roman emperor known as Julian "the Apostate." His life story is fascinating and bizarre, but suffice to say that when he inherited the throne in 361 AD, he was young (29 years old), intelligent, diligent, an able administrator, and a skilled general. He was raised as a Christian, but had converted to philosophical paganism in adulthood. He made it his life's mission to eradicate Christianity, but only through non-violent means.
But his ambitions were cut short due to his sudden death, less than two years into his reign. To me, his reign has always been the most tantalizing "what-if" scenario in all of history. Could he have succeeded in reversing the growth Christianity? Could he have prevented the decline and fall of the Roman Empire, by saving us from the catastrophically incompetent emperors who came immediately after him?
Here is a short timeline to remind everyone about the main events:
>c.300 AD Experts estimate that only about 7-10% of the Roman population is Christian at this point, and they are mostly centered around several urban areas in the east.
>324 AD Constantine becomes sole emperor, and begins to openly practice Christianity. He founds the new imperial capital of Constantinople in Christian territory, and convenes a massive council of Christian bishops to reorganize the church and establish a unified doctrine.
>361 AD Constantine's nephew, Julian, inherits the throne. He reopens pagan temples, withdraws funding from the Christian churches, and begins restructuring the pagan faith. He writes a lengthy, scathing critique of Christianity, known as "Against the Galileans," which was so thorough that it was widely considered to be irrefutable. He happily invites all Christian exiles back into the empire with open arms, knowing full well that there heretics would cause intense in-fighting among the different denominations. He supports the Jews in planning to reconstruct the great Temple of Jerusalem, knowing that this would disprove a key prophecy made by Jesus. He bans Christian teachers from teaching the classical pagan texts, essentially preventing them from getting the education necessary to rise up in the government. And these are just a few of his tactics.
>363 AD After a rapid string of victories in his war against Persia, Julian is unexpectedly struck by a stray javelin during a skirmish and dies.
>after 400 AD By this point, many pagan practices have been outlawed on pain of death. Christianity has spread across the entire empire, and paganism is only followed by the most sincere philosophers.
Eli Reed
The original fedora-tipping neofagan loser.
Jaxon Lee
>Against the Galileans Anyone care to tell me any reasons to live when we know works like that and most of the Epic Cycle etc are forever gone. The Library of Alexandria and everything in it is forever lost.
Why should any of us go on? Life is worthless.
Angel Clark
Nothing of value was lost.
Elijah Bailey
>He supports the Jews in planning to reconstruct the great Temple of Jerusalem >knowing that this would disprove a key prophecy made by Jesus >But his ambitions were cut short due to his sudden death >unexpectedly struck by a stray javelin during a skirmish and dies.
It's no coincidence. The tribulation was not ready to be fullfilled. So God simply cut his life short.
fedora tippers and pagan filth will argue this.
Kevin Adams
Actually christians destroyed all the copies. Christians destroyed ethnic European culture and beliefs, the only difference between a Muslim and a Christian is about 400 years
Jackson Rogers
>Christians destroyed ethnic European culture and beliefs >Implying Romans didn't do the same throughout history
Fuck off and die.
Cameron Nelson
It's heartbreaking. There must have been so many amazing literary works that we don't even know about, that would shed so much light on ancient history.
I mean, there was a Greek kingdom established in modern-day Afghanistan, isolated for centuries from the Greek homeland, where the rulers converted to Buddhism, ended up conquering huge areas of land, and accumulated immense wealth.
How do we know about all this? Because they left a bunch of coins behind. That's it. There is basically no other surviving classical literature that even mentions them. I bet there was some crazy shit they wrote about.
Cooper Allen
Most of the ancient literature that was lost was due to apathy and disrespect from Christians. Because you needed to have scribes repeatedly copy texts if you wanted them to survive, and after the philosophical schools and private libraries were closed, only the church held the books. And, in their infinite wisdom, the priests decided that what we REALLY needed was yet another copy of Psalms, instead of (for instance) the plays of Menander or the books of Livy.
...having said that: you're right, "Against the Galileans" actually is one of the few texts that Christians explicitly banned and ordered to be destroyed. We only have an outline of the first volume (there were three total) but apparently whatever information that they were trying to hide was so indescribably damning that it was seen as an existential threat to the entire Christian church.
Evan Taylor
This just proves God's existence and his cheeky demeanor. His one last open swing at the world before leaving it to faith.
Parker Hall
>indescribably damning More like correcting. Some of the few points we know of were kind of retarded.
Levi Hill
Actually, one of the points we know Julian makes was pretty revolutionary and only recently did scholars realize that it was correct.
Specifically, Julian is the first person to theorize and provide evidence that early Judaism was NOT monotheistic, and the earliest Jews simply believed YHWH to be their personal protector diety, just like the other nations of that time. He pinpointed the change in Jewish theology to the reforms of Josiah in the 7th century BC
Aaron Brooks
Have you considered that Julian angered God, and God reacted accordingly? If you read the Old Testament, this is not unprecedented.
Noah Wood
>everything that supports the existence of the Christian faith proves god's existence >the decline of the Christian faith proves god's existence
Good fucking lord, it's like everything proves the existence of God to you people.
Is that what people mean when they talk about magical thinking? Assuming there's a supernatural agency to fucking everything that's all pointing to a single conclusion?
Owen Walker
It's a theory completely without merit.
But then again, I don't have "spiritual discernment" (I.E. I wasn't indoctrinated to believe that god is behind every goddamn gust of wind and under every rock).
Hunter Hernandez
That is interesting OP, I hadn't heard about this guy before.
Carson Sullivan
god isn't real, you retarded christcuck
Nathaniel Butler
Julian was one of the most based emperors who ever lived.
Jaxson Anderson
you mean the original war hero, willing to sacrifice his life rather than cower behind the lines.
Liam Miller
While I personally admire his attempt to make pagan thought flourish again, I most respect his attempt to make the cities of the empire less dependent on the capital for survival and thus more self-sufficient.
Adrian Davis
go back to /pol/
Dylan Martinez
Not him but... >/pol/ bogeyman sort yourself out
Kevin Hernandez
He also had a pretty solid sense of humor.
I remember one good part in his satirical work called "The Caesars" was when Trajan is being introduced to Zeus. Silenus makes some joke along the lines of "Ah, they say that he has had many conquests, and he has pierced countless men with his spear! Hmm, I'd keep an eye on Ganemede if I were you, because Trajan might try to conquer him next..."
Okay, the joke actually falls a little flat when I try to tell it, but still.
Andrew Kelly
It might help to look up the Texas sharp shooter fallicy when looking at questions like this.
If you don't then you either run into contradiction or have to make special exemptions.
For instance I've seen the Islamic conquest of the east orthodox part of the petarchy as proof of god being angered by their heresy and as them being the true chirstians for receiving so much persecution.
Likewise if we follow your logic heretical and deabauched religious leaders and Arian emporers must be correct or otherwise god would not have blessed them with long lives and wealth
David Reed
He wrote a book about his beard that was actually an allegorical jab at his political contemporaries, didn't he?
Christopher Carter
Yeah, even if his religious policies hadn't succeeded, I think he definitely could have reversed the policies of "the Dominate" and gone back to the period we now call "the Principate". Ever since Diocletian, the emperors had become these oriental-style absolutist monarchs, cut off from the world and viewed as perfect, godly beings who lived in luxury, were pampered by eunuchs, and oversaw every aspect of the vast state bureaucracy. It was much more efficient to have the individual territories oversee their own governing, although the local noblemen apparently were infuriated by the fact that they now had to actually deliberate and rule.
Yeah, known as "The Beard-Haters", which admittedly sounds like some sort of terrible rap song. It's related to the stuff I wrote above, because while he held court in Antioch, the townspeople continually mocked him for acting like a normal citizen instead of an awe-inspiring divine king. So his response was to write a sarcastic, self-deprecating piece where he laments the fact that his hands were stained with ink from writing and callouses from hard work, and the fact that he wore a scruffy philosopher's beard - and then reflecting on the fact that it would surely be much better for the state if he shaved, wore beautiful jewelry and perfume, and demanded that all his subjects kneel before him, like his uncle Constantine had done.
Ian Moore
Tips fedora
Anthony Murphy
>neofagan Paganism still had an extant tradition at this point, there's nothing "neo-" about it.
Carson Taylor
I thought God only specifically killed Jews who angered him. Is there anything in the OT about his killing non-Jews through any means less general than a flood or a Jewish army?
Grayson Long
honestly, this is the first I've ever really learned about him and he sounds absolutely based
Adrian Morgan
>Could he have succeeded in reversing the growth Christianity? Could he have prevented the decline and fall of the Roman Empire, by saving us from the catastrophically incompetent emperors who came immediately after him? I get the feeling from this that you know extraordinarily little about the fall of the western Roman Empire.
Jayden Wright
but this is true
Jaxon Bailey
They didn't. The Romans actually adopted other beliefs and cultures into their own.
Xavier Gray
What we have from "Against the Galileans" is actually really interesting. I encourage you to look it up.
His arguments are really fucking varied too.
Bentley Nguyen
I've also read that he used to invite various christian scholars, only to make them argue about their doctrine and then laughing about it.
Jason Adams
>c.300 AD Experts estimate that only about 7-10% of the Roman population is Christian at this point, and they are mostly centered around several urban areas in the east.
>324 AD Constantine becomes sole emperor, and begins to openly practice Christianity. He founds the new imperial capital of Constantinople in Christian territory, and convenes a massive council of Christian bishops to reorganize the church and establish a unified doctrine.
>330 AD The Roman Empire splits into two
>376AD The teetering empire fails to stop the flow of Goths and other barbarians
>387AD The empire falls into civil war
>395 AD Theodosius I the final emperor to rule both parts of the empire dies.
The speed with which Christianity destroyed Western civilization is breathtaking.
Andrew Torres
Correlation does not equal causation.
Tyler Turner
still faggy
Jayden Cruz
True, but then again it's not like the Orthodox Christian Eastern Roman empire did anything to build on it's heritage and the only thing they really managed was the occasional resurgence before being killed off for good.
Jaxon Hernandez
That doesn't mean Christians weren't the cause.
Kayden Flores
Has any of you read Ibsen's Emperor & Galilean? Ibsen himself claimed it was his best work, and I agree. It's absolutely miles above all his other works, and I think Bloom would be embarrassed of picking Peer Gynt as part of the Canon over E&G, had he only read it. Never performed as a play because it would take over 24h and modern actors are plebs. Anyways, how historically inaccurate is it?
Oliver Long
>>people who adhere to religions I don't agree with are faggots I'll remember this shit the next time you fuckers post dayoos vult maymays while calling neo-pagans larpers.
Faggot.
Jacob Davis
No he wouldn't have changed the rise of Christianity nor would he have stopped natural disasters that led to the fall of rome
Hudson Morales
Oh look, another
>le christian was fall of rome
Is this was Veeky Forums has regressed to?
Ian Adams
>incompetent >Valentinian the GOAT Pick one
Ryan Sanders
>330 AD >The Roman Empire splits into two But that's wrong
Cameron Sullivan
You are like a little baby.
Parker Long
>I-I-It's a coincidence ok! >G-God isn't real! The javeline j-just hit him randomly! >HE WOULD HAVE PROVEN THOSE KIKE WORSHIPPERS WRONG IF HE REBUILT JERUSALEM!! >IT TOTALLY WASN'T ANYTHING SUPERNATURAL
>IT'S NOT FUCKING FAIR, PAGANKEKS!!!
Jack Harris
>holy fuck, a guy who fought at the front lines died in a war >this clearly proves God exists
So, what does the decline of European Christianity prove?
Dominic James
I suppose it's only a coincidence that Europe only truly flourished once the reformation, the enlightenment, and the French revolution defanged he church?
Joseph Hughes
>what does the decline of European ""Christianity"" prove?
If anything, it proves that the world is going exactly like predicted. More and more people will choose foolish beliefs and other ""spiritual"" accomodations instead of believing the word. Tribulation will commence.
Levi Edwards
Y-yeah you got them, he couldn't have just died in a battle where both sides were trying to lill each other.
Oh wait. Kill yourself.
Bentley Mitchell
Thank you for proving my original point. I couldn't have done it by myself.
Ryan Rogers
>Buy your bonus buckets now, it's the end.
Funny, they've been saying that for thousands of years. It's always supposedly right around the corner but it never comes.
Josiah Collins
It's no big thing to predict that some religion, morality, philosophy, whatever "ethos", will eventually decay.
The Reformation and French Revolution brought about nothing but devastating wars.
Logan Gray
Retard. A friendly reminder that this is a board about history and humanities, not religious zeal and bigotry
Brody Torres
Well aside from one of the basic texts of Buddhism being a dialogue between a sage and the Greek king, you're right.
Ayden Smith
I get the feeling you are a Christian, so please, ullustrate us any capable Roman emperor later than Julian, apart from Majorian?
Cameron Peterson
Well, but you agree, the coincidence of the spread of Crhistianity and the subsequent fall of the most powerful state ever created in history relatively to its time is quite incredible, it's also quite incredible believing that the barbarian invasions would have alone managed to take down the empire when it had endured worst situations multiple times... Really, the only thing that could have taken it down was internal turmoil and Christianity undoubtably created the eventuality, causing infighting between the citizens, softening of its costumes and unnecessary reforms of its organization.
Adrian Lee
>He supports the Jews in planning to reconstruct the great Temple of Jerusalem, knowing that this would disprove a key prophecy made by Jesus So... God killed Julian so that the prophecy would remain true?
Isaac Ramirez
Proofs, argumentations? That's not a good post faggot.
Jaxson Johnson
holy fuck i didn't know about Greco-Bactria Till now This country is so cool >made contact with Han China and caused the Silk Road to be built >was highly urbanized and called The Empire of a Thousand Cities >Wealthy as fug >THAT ART Please give sources so i can further read on them
Camden Thompson
>subsequent fall Yeah, in 1453.
Jack Wilson
He sanctioned the rebuilding of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem but the project ended with his death.
Dylan Roberts
lmao
Nolan Reyes
Euphoric
Isaiah Hughes
The OG fedora.
Angel Perez
You fail to mention how many people are following an eastern religion I.E. not European paganism. This being said European paganism was already so bastardized by more popular eastern deities it isn't even relevant,
Jace Thompson
More like apathy from an already decayed paganism and Germanic barbarians.
Christanity breathed life back into Europe. The ERE lasted another thousand years, and only after atheism took over society in the 18th century did things start to go to shit again.
Gavin Edwards
>Christians destroyed ethnic European culture and beliefs kek. The glories of Christendom far surpass its predecessors. Christianity transmitted the best of Greco-Roman culture and Judeo-Christian culture to civilize the germanics throughout the middle ages. There would be no Western culture as we know it without Christianity.
John Moore
This is what should be said. Julian Made a point to revive "paganism" (just a form of Neoplatonism, pagan religions have little to nothing in relation to one another) because it was already decayed. Sort of like Christanity now. Any fedoras or neopagans who say Christanity is anti-intellectual or not philosophically elegant are incorrect. Scholasticism was embraced by Christanity for a reason.
Xavier Turner
Duh, there would be no scholastic system as we know it without it. Europe's first universities grew out of monasteries.
Gabriel Anderson
Ancient Greece combined with Buddhism is literally !GODTIER!
Elijah Thompson
t.Greek Not many people in Greece know either. The power combo of Ancient-Hellenic culture and Buddhism is just too cool for this planet...
Dylan Jenkins
>Julian goes on to discuss the creation myths of the Greeks and the Jews, citing the account of the Book of Genesis. He ridicules the idea of literally interpreting the Jewish account, claiming that it is not only logically impossible (75B)- he asks how the serpent was able to speak a human language (86A)- but that is also blasphemous and insulting to God (89B). A true God, he says, would not have withheld the knowledge of good and evil from men or have been jealous of men eating from the tree of life and living forever. Indeed, this behavior shows God to be evil and the serpent, giving man the enormously valuable gift of differentiating good and evil, to be good. >Julian also brings up questions from the account of how God created the world. Where, he asks, did the abyss, the darkness, and the waters come from that are mentioned (49C)? Where did angels come from, since they are not mentioned in the creation account? To Julian, the account of Genesis is not about a creator God, but about an inferior god who merely shaped the matter that had already been created. >The God of Moses, being a god who chose the Jews as his people and gave them alone the gift of prophecy and his teachings, is merely the god of the Jewish people, not the god of any other race of men (106D). Julian finds it absurd to believe that the God who created everything in the world, who describes himself as being a jealous God (106D-E), was content to confine himself to caring for a small tribe in Palestine while letting all races besides the Jews worship false gods for thousands of years (106D). > if the Jewish God is the only god, the Jews have not accomplished as much as other races, such as the Greeks, Phoenicians or Egyptians (178A), and why the Jews have been subjugated by so many other races (213A). Christfags absolutely btfo.
Jose Hughes
>and only after atheism took over society in the 18th century did things start to go to shit again. >Europes collective peak of influence, power and culture is unarguably the 19th century
Thats a wew lad
Nathaniel Lee
>a stray javelin is god christfags, everyone
Colton Brown
>civilize the germanics
>And thus for almost a millennium, German princes fought amongst themselves. All this, in a desperate bid to prove which of them is more relevent and rule over all germany. >And because they couldn't handle any banter the serius discussin became a joke. This brings us to the Second Reich.
Landon Flores
... except the Carthaginians.
Ayden Hernandez
ITT: neo-pagans/atheists getting butthurt
God wins. Satan loses.
Luke Morales
>Europes collective peak of influence, power and culture is unarguably the 19th century Is that a joke? Perhaps from a simple material perspective. Compare the influences of new imperialism (Anglo, German, French Republican, American, Italian republican) on the world compared to old imperial regimes of Rome, HRE, ERE, the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth, Russia, Spain and Portugal.
You'll find the lasting affects only served up anti-European sediment across the world. No meaningful cultural legacy from the 19th century empires was left behind. Nothing to be proud of for the various provinces.
Asher Torres
I can't believe that Sappho had a huge critical edition of her poems that are almost all gone.
Like fuck.
Anthony Lewis
>mfw slowly start to realize this is true >mfw reading about destruction of pagan idols and temples >mfw reading about cutting down of holy trees >mfw reading about how christianity spread by the sword in many cases
the more i read about european history the more pagan i become
Ian Ward
Recently finished this -- a good, friendly-but-not-credulous bio of Julian.
Camden Lewis
Christianity didn't destroy paganism. It assimilated it. That's why most churches are built over pagan temples. Read the Divine comedy. It's pretty clear Dante belived just as much in Greco-Roman mythological concepts as he did Christian. Pagan gods never went away. They were simply changed to represent artistic and metaphysical concepts instead of objects of devotion. The same is true for Germanic paganism. The gods became elves or fairies. They never went away.
This is the natural order of things. Was it possible the new religion of Europe (and by the end of the WRE Europe needed a spiritual revival. That's why Julian had to bother attempting to restore Neoplatonism in the first place) could have been more like Hinduism and integrated previous religious customs more obviously? Sure. But part of Christianity's strength and staying power was its unaffirming wavering of itself.
Dylan Butler
Catholicism assimilated paganism.
Real Biblical Christianity survived as a lamp in the dark, until the Reformation when it became equally as strong as the Pagan whore.
Benjamin Lopez
why change it? why fix what ain't broke. fucking christians
Kevin Harris
It was broken. That's why it needed a change. Whether by Julian, Christianity, or some other eastern faith. Perhaps gnosticism or Manichaeism,
Jeremiah Martinez
>paganism was broken, that's why we had to destroy 99% of Greco-Roman literature
Cooper Thomas
reeeeeeeeee
Ryan Smith
Christians did not destroy 99% of pagan literature. A historically revisionist strawman. Christians used pagan literature.
Political upheavals have more to do with the fall of Rome. The library of Alexandria was destroyed several times. One of which by Julius Caesar.
Robert Sanders
Daily reminder the Roman Empire lasted another 1000 years after Julian.
Ryan Miller
I've heard it put forth that christianity destabilized their system of slavery and citizenship, indirectly leading to the fall
Just read this small synopsis of the first (out of three) books. Christianity absolutely BTFO.
>Cyril claimed that it was one of the most important anti-Christian works that had been written, and that it was widely considered to be irrefutable, while Libanius praised it as an even greater work than the critiques of Porphyry of Tyre.[6]
Ryan Moore
Yeah, as a broken husk that pales in comparison to the prestige that is once had.
