Opium Wars

Yeah. And just because France did it doesn't mean it makes Britain any less fucked up for doing it.

>force them to buy opium

Absolute nonsense; is Mexico _forcing_ Americans to buy cocaine?

The Chinese government stupidly wouldn't trade for anything other then silver, but there was a huge market among the Chinese people for opium, so the European traders (not just British) sold opium to the Chinese for silver, then turned around and used the silver to buy tea, ceramics, silk, etc. from the Chinese.

>Le meme silver.
True yes.

But based on Spanish records from the Philippines that I've read (notably the Blair and Robertson Letters- which were Spanish records and letters translated into english by a pair of American historians during the time of American rule in the Philippines), the Chinese valued the other Europeans for the bounties they brought that otherwise do not exist in China. Dutch control of Indonesia meant they had a hold on the Spice trade. Spain paid in Andean Silver, but alongside it, brought stuff the Chinks craved like Tobacco, potatoes, peanuts, and various tropical american fruits. Copra oil from the coconut fields of the Philippines was also another major selling point of Spain in China. Same as Portugal carrying shit from Brazil and Africa.

France, meanwhile, had a foot in the door of China thanks to French Jesuits being held positively in the French court. They were also memed of France as a powerful faraway Kingdom led by wealthy Kings ( a fact that Louis XIV advertised well through the Jesuits earlier in the 18th Century)

Anglos literally had nothing which interested China. Can't pay in silver, no fucking products of note. And how does Anglo history paint this snubbing? ISOLATIONISM!

>Start an Anglowank thread.
>Get BTFO by facts.
Every time.

The Brits had that cotton tho

So did China.
>lse.ac.uk/economicHistory/Research/GEHN/GEHNPDF/PUNEZurndorfer.pdf
>Kenneth Pomeranz' "The Great Divide." Lookitup.

Hence Chinks didn't see the point with Anglos.

reminder that the mastermind was a jew called David Sasom who stole money from the Baghdad treasury and then created a drug cartel. Basically the first narco. His son married a Rothchild too.

canton system applied to all Europeans.
dumbass, the british grew and sold the drug, they never forced anyone to buy anything until the second opium war. go actually read about, the drug wasn't even fully illegal. the fucking bureaucrats themselves used it. the only reason the emperor even bothered to pay attention was because he was losing money and he was worried about the military becoming populated by druggies
well, they had opium. And it was isolationism, the thing which directly led to the war was the closing of Canton to all europeans. The US joined briefly for exactly that reason.

I don't think Mexican cartels are viewed in a morally righteous way by anyone outside Chicano central and Berkely

>canton system applied to all Europeans.
Nope.jpg.

Spain did all their business with Chinkdom via middlemen in the Philippines.

>Absolute nonsense; is Mexico _forcing_ Americans to buy cocaine?

You are fucking retarded for trying to make this analogy.

The Opium War was literally the British Navy enforcing the opium trade and protecting its traders (cartels) from the Chinese government.

The better analogy is if the Mexican army invaded America and secured the transit routes and trading rights of its cartels by force.

The Mexican government and army is actively at war with the cartels. That's the opposite of the Opium wars.

>canton system applied to all europeans
1. Wrong.
2. Irrelevant. The canton system wasn't the only form of trade relations.

Thanks for lying. Try again!

>Mexican government and army is actively at war with the cartels
not at all
they are the same

>white people
>civilised

Have you read Shogun? It's his absolute best book.

>Why wouldn't the Quing Dynasty just take the damn opium?

because as people of respect and authority they probably had a problem with being forced into a deal that poisons their work force and screws up theyr society whyle they get nothing of value in return

generaly speaking emperors and empresess dont like to be bullied

Because opium is highly addictive, destructive and made the commercial balance unfavorable to China, which was enjoying a high export of tea, silk and porcelan to Europe.

I hope you're not comparing opium to marijuana. One of them even have large usage on medicine.

>Have you read Shogun? It's his absolute best book.

I’ve read all of Clavell's semi-alt-history “Asian Saga” novels and they’re all great (that is, “Whirlwind” is just ok, as it’s set in Iran instead of East Asia like the others and just doesn’t feel right) and it’s a shame he didn’t write more because the guy wrote damn good stories and despite all his novels having dozens of characters and multiple simultaneous plot-lines, there is no confusion as to who is who or what’s going on.

Also the tv mini-series / movie adaptions of “Shogun” and “Taipan” are great and while “Noble House” is just ok, it’s still nice to see a movie adaption that sticks pretty close to the original novel.

I’d have really liked a novel set in Hong Kong / China during the 1911 Chinese Revolution revolution, where a reference in “Noble House” mentions that Sun Yat-Sen had “cashed in” one of Dirk Struan’s broken coins from the novel “Taipan”.

Publishing order:
1 King Rat (1962): Set in a Japanese POW camp in Singapore, 1945
2 Tai-Pan (1966): Set in Hong Kong, 1841
3 Shōgun (1975): Set in feudal Japan, 1600
4 Noble House (1981): Set in Hong Kong, 1963
5 Whirlwind (1986): Set in Iran, 1979
6 Gai-Jin (1993): Set in Japan, 1862

Historical order (and proper reading order);
1 Shogun
2 Taipan
3 Gai-Jin
4 King Rat
5 Noble House
6 Whirlwind

My personal ranking;
1 Taipan
2 Shogun
3 Noble House
4 Gai-Jin
5 King Rat
6 Whirlwind

no sorry, i don't read racist, orientalist trash

>everything is racist from the perspective if a white man haha

It must be a strange world you walk around in little goofball

China is a lousy rat park and that's why opium caught on, regardless of anything else.

Don't make me fuck your sister again Chang!

>Why are anglos viewed as the ultimate evil for poisoning the Chinese nation with opium but Mexican cartels are defended as just "satisfying a market" by kike lawyers when they poison the US?
literally nobody has ever held this opinion in the entire existence of mankind
fuck off /pol/

The Quing wanted to sell their own Opium to their own people but the Brits undercut them and forced them to buy British Opium.
Don't believe any of the bullshit propaganda about the Opium trade op.The Americans see themselves as good guys that forced the Brits to stop selling Opium to the Chinks,which is true,but, what's conveniently left out of that story is how the Americans then forced the Chinks to buy American Opium instead.

So queen victoria was basically the mexican drug cartel boss, but british version.

Depends, the military is less corrupt than the police in Mexico. Some police maybe on their payroll, but theres still killing each other.

white people shouldn't write books about cultures they're not a part of

>t. Korean/Chinese """""American""""" speaking for Japs AGAIN

Why do they keep doing this? Japanese don't want you to speak for them, little asian man.

First of all, the USA was a bigger cultivator of marijuana, and most people would prefer home grown, but all the old hippies got supermax life sentences, which is why the mexicans even have a market in the first place.

Most of the country is agricultural and we've allowed beaners to monopolize the most profitable crop since tobacco.

The man Blackthorne was based on had a greater connection to Japanese culture than you do.

>t. ss man pretending to be a pon to start race war

Ur dubs gave u away.

>The Quing wanted to sell their own Opium to their own people but the Brits undercut them and forced them to buy British Opium.

The opium was necessary because of the official Chinese prohibition on trade for anything other then silver and Chinese merchants were happy to buy cheep Indian opium; nobody was forcing them.

Opium was quasi-legal in China; lots of people openly smoked it even though it was technically illegal and not only did the Chinese merchants make a ton of money off the opium trade, but the Emperor and imperial government took tons of taxes off the merchants, knowing full well that money came from opium.

But in the end, the British got ahold of tea seeds and started growing tea in India, so they no longer needed China for that and the British government suppressed the opium trade, though admittedly it was still a major source of money for all involved and considering the law enforcement capabilities and technology available at the time, there wasn't much that realistically could be done.

I'm an Asian American man who has lived the Asian American experience. I have even met many great Asian American YouTubers. Fuck you.

afe.easia.columbia.edu/main_pop/kpct/kp_ming.htm
>Under the Qianlong Emperor (1736-1795) the Western trading companies are limited to Canton (today, Guangdong) where they have contact only with officially designated Chinese firms, or hong.
library.hbs.edu/hc/heard/canton-trade.html
>All foreign trade was required to be channeled through them.
ocw.mit.edu/ans7870/21f/21f.027/rise_fall_canton_01/pdf/cw_essay.pdf
>Under this system, the Chinese state restricted the access of Westerners
to the interior of China
britannica.com/event/Canton-system
>In response to a British attempt to expand their trade to some of the North China ports, the Qing emperor in 1757 issued a decree explicitly ordering that Guangzhou be made the only port opened to foreign commerce. This had the effect of tightening Chinese regulations on foreign traders. Foreign merchants became subject to numerous demanding regulations,
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canton_System
>In 1757 the Qianlong Emperor banned all non-Russian ships from the ports of northern China.[16] Thereafter all such commerce was to be conducted via a single port under what became known in as the Canton System (In Chinese: Yī kŏu tōngshāng (一口通商 literally, "Single port commerce system").
Only indirect trade could be used to bypass the system, so yes, the Portuguese and Spanish bypassed it, but it still applied to all Europeans.
they literally refused to receive letters directly from Europeans.

>Mention Orientalism and racism
>People sperg out
:^)

The official trade, yes. You are correct.

The unofficial trade which was the opium/spanish silver/spices and that accounted for half of the total, no. You are incorrect.

The Qing could barely enforce its own military, let alone trade laws

The official trade was limited to silver and ONLY silver for tea, silk, etc. which was unsustainable.

The Europeans could not for example, trade mechanical clocks for tea; it was silver or nothing.

Thus the unofficial trade of opium for silver for tea, silk, etc. which the Chinese government knowingly taxed for their benefit despite the illegality of it.

And we’re right back to my original point up-thread; The Chinese caused their own downfall by their retarded adherence of isolation.

Your logic is broken.

The opium was illegal. The Chinese did not officially trade for opium. Random drug distributors in China traded unofficially for it, usually in the form of silk or silver.

So you are wrong. Is it isolationism if you have 1% official trade and 99% unofficial? I mean, nominally it is. In reality it is not.

China was never sealed off or "isolationist". Isolationist being "not interacting with outside world more than the bare necessity".
The government was just extremely conservative and antithetical to new ideas.

He's not wrong. If the Chinks had accepted trade goods other than silver, there would have been no opium wars and no century of humiliation.

What? How is this relevant or logical?

He's claiming China was isolationist and the only trade for euros was through the canton system. He's wrong on both accounts.

Why does /pol/ have to come in and turn EVERY SINGLE FUCKING THREAD into some Jewish conspiracy, "White reace" being "victimized" Hitler was right shitfest? Fucking why?

>unofficial trade
yes, but we're talking about actual trade - official policy, which the brits and euros worked within until Opium came about. Even when the Qing started to crack down on the sale of opium, there were traders who were willing to work within.

>into some Jewish conspiracy

The Opium Trade in the 19th century was run by Jews though. Literally. See: David Sassoon.

Also note that it was Kaifeng Jews who acted as the dealers on the ground for the big Jews in London, Paris and Baghdad.

>Da Jews did erfrathang
Can you tell me why these "Jews" had blond hair and blue eyes?

> What? How is this relevant or logical?

No stupid Chinese trade rules for silver only = Euros don’t bother smuggling opium = China trades tea, silk, ceramics, etc. for clocks, guns, steamships, etc. = China no longer an assbackward country = China is no longer the chump of the Euros and Japanese.

How do you not understand this?

Why should we treat the Anglo any other way than we treat any common Jew? They're the same people.

Because Jews intermixed into European societies you fucking retard. Ashkenazi Jews are a thing, you know?

so then they arent any different from europeans and any jew-goy distinction is moot

Wow, this is the best porcelain Chinks could make? I thought they were supposed to be civilized??

No sadly judaism has been morphed into a transdimensional identity in 2017.

We now have 'secular jews' whose only tangential connexion to judaism is apartness from goyim.

Literally if you identify as a jew in 2017 you are a jew. Moses would have wept. Abraham is doing barrel roles in his grave.

>Th-The trade ban on Euros is absolutely false! There was still trade going on
>Oh-oh the Official trade was banned? Well let's just play at semantics then?
Weed trade is officially banned, but that doesn't mean people don't still trade weed dumbass.
People are still going to be pissed if you "Officially" ban trade because of the message it sends to them that they're not wanted.

The Canton system was a shit trade deal for people who didn't already have their foot in the door, dickhead. That's the thing that pissed off the Anglos.

If the Qing autism hadn't prevented them from seeing how this would frustrate people who came from halfway across the globe, maybe the peace talks would have gone somewhere.

The Brits wanted a fair shake and the Qing kept restricting the ports they could trade in and throttled their economy. The ports of an overseas mercantile empire. One that had recently conquered bits of India.

Imagine being Abraham or Moses waking up in 2017 Israel to a government of smarmy atheists desu.

It would be a nightmare to them.

She's right you know

Was there any real demand in China for products other than silver? As far as they were concerned they had everything they needed. That's why China didn't engage in mercantilism unlike the Europeans.

> Was there any real demand in China for products other than silver?

MERCHANT: “The Roundeyes want to trade all kinda stuff for tea.”
EMPEROR: “No! The Chinese don’t want any of that shit!”
MERCHANT: “But how do we know they don’t want it?”
EMPEROR: “Because I said so!”

A leader who put society ahead of economy?

What a bastard

The Qianlong emperor's reign was by all accounts a stable and prosperous time for the Qing, after which everything went downhill.

That doesn't look like a Qing emperor to me.

Let me get this straight, if isolationism is bad, why did Trump get elected?

We've reached a point where major urban centers declare themselves to be sanctuary cities for foreigners with record numbers of citizen homelessness.

We pump billions overseas while our own infrastructure is failing. Not crumbling, failing.

We send hundreds of thousands of troops to secure the border of Iraq while leaving out own porous and out of control.

No one wants to become isolationist, that's an incorrect term.

We simply want a period of time when the American is the most important person in America.

But, clearly from this thread, the first thing that will happen after we secure our borders from drugs and violent foreigners, the British will invade and burn Washington. History will give them the moral high ground.

The sanctuary city system isn't because they love illegals so much, it's a simple cost benefit. They decided the social cost of making the illegals unable to approach local law enforcement is not offset by the social benefit of giving local law enforcement support to federal immigration officers.

How exactly did they defeat the largest empire on Earth with 20,000 men and some boats?

They expected the British empire to respect their sovereignty

>Be me, Britain
>Discover tea
>lovethatshit.jpeg
>Buy tea from China
>Bankrupt from buying tea from China
>Get them hooked on heroin for bantz
>Emperor is pissed
>Destroy their navy for violating the NAP
>Exercise control over China
>Where do we get our tea from now?
>Force India to lmao

Meanwhile homeless citizens are commonly cited, harassed and arrested with property thrown away and no legal recourse.

You're crazy. Like special 1984 crazy

>try to get all the colonies hooked on tea
>haha it's SO expensive lol stupid colonies you mad
>colonists throw all that tea right into the ocean
>fuck you Dad! And your tea!!
>we'll go to South America and get coffee instead

because they didn't overplay their hand. just stuck to a mostly naval campaign, while picking and choosing where exactly they would engage the chinese and when.

>ifunny
>historically inaccurate greentext

stop writing in a white language, im extremely offended

>when /pol/ ruins EVERY thread by shoehorning their anti-semitism into any historical discussion
fuck off already

The Qing dynasty didn't care if peasants used opium and they lost silver through other trade goods.

What was the real reason?

Lad this is Veeky Forums.
Anons here pretend that the brits never did anything impressive while idolising the innumerable people they defeated.

>The Qing dynasty didn't care if peasants used opium
why do you assume only peasants did it? opium use became rampant in the military and among all classes in the cities. the more money people spent on opium, the less money they would have left over to give pay in taxes to the government. and you're wrong; opium shifted the balance of trade in favor of the british.

He goes for jews and Mexicans but he's missing the obvious conspiracy here.
Research Chemicals
Fentanyl analogues are being made in China and being shipped over to the US legally right now. Those fuckers are getting their revenge.

>opium shifted the balance of trade in favor of the british.

Indeed, the stupid Chinese trade regulations resulted in a flood of cheep Indian opium that made it available at all levels of society.

I bet you don't even like the homeless, you are just saying that.

>A leader who put society ahead of economy?

How is forcing your people to remain in a backward medieval society while the world advances around you, a good thing?

Different kinds of isolationism. America is stronger than everyone else and has to cut itself off to stop the weaker nations parasiting off it. Qing Dynasty by the time of the Opium Wars was decidedly weaker than the European Powers and could have benefited from opening up and gaining foreign knowledge and products of the industrial revolution.

Sometimes it's not actually /pol/ sometimes it's a troll or a false flagger. You never know :^)

t. /pol/

Naw come on pol is the ultimate boogeyman for leftist hysterics. They shriek and howl all day long about pol lol, accusing anything outside of their scope to be derived from a single hated community.

It's quite deranged

The world doesnt owe the anglo anything. The britbongs shouldve either accepted china's terms for buying its prduct or kindly fucked off.

>The Brits wanted a fair shake and the Qing kept restricting the ports they could trade in and throttled their economy.

The issue (at least early on) had less to do with restricting trade to a single port, it was the insistence on silver only that was screwing with the European economies.

The Euro traders would have been content (for a while) to trade only via Canton, if the Chinese had been willing to trade for other products and had the Chinese done so, they would have gained access to Euro tech and practices and the time to implement them in China, so that when the Euros started bitching about only trading thru Canton, the Chinese would have been capable of enforcing their regulations.

But by demanding silver only, the Euros were BOTH being bankrupted _and_ didn’t have access to any other Chinese ports and when the inevitable Opium Wars happened, China was still the same assbackward medieval nation they had been when the Euros had first arrived, while the Euros had become more advanced and powerful over the years and now could and would enforce their own trade deals on China.

China fucked itself by blindly insisting that they could somehow go on without having any contact with those outside of China.

Why accept terms when you can just force yours?

I actually kind of feel bad for Veeky Forums it's in the middle of crossboarder/crosswebsite war. I remember the days circa 2016 where /int/ dominated Veeky Forums kek. I guess there was never going to be a long term pattern of non-partisan discussion and it was naive to expect such.

>FUCK YOU STOP BRINGING UP JEWS ALL THE TIME /pol/ YOURE RUINING MY THREADS ITS NOTHING BUT JEWS
Have you tried not replying to those posts instead of giving them tons of butthurt replies?

>China fucked itself by blindly insisting that they could somehow go on without having any contact with those outside of China.

But they could have. They were pretty self-sufficent.

Only Europeans needed to push the 'diversity is your greatest strength' meme

But they didn't, and they gained a lot from it. How fucking naive are you? If the chinese were in a position to fuck over the brits in the same way, they would have done it as well.

>The sanctuary city system isn't because they love illegals so much, it's a simple cost benefit.

Illegal Mexicans cost American tax payers bazillions of dollars per year, 70%+ of illegals are on some kinda welfare and they're filling up our prisons, at thousands of dollars per prisoner per year.

The "sanctuary city" treason is nothing by typical Leftist politics.