What does Veeky Forums think about the bicameral hypothesis?

What's it called when you know something is bs but you still want to believe it?

Religion
[spoiler] actually kind of shit joke but you were asking for it [/spoiler]

>>In the Iliad and sections of the Old Testament no mention is made of any kind of cognitive processes such as introspection, and there is no apparent indication that the writers were self-aware.
>Gideon
>David's psalms
>Jacob wresting with the divine

fedora-core seems to have never actually read the OT.

did people not understand what genes were in the 70s? all of a sudden and all at the once the entire world over stop being Bicameral in 2000 BC?

hahaha can't make this shit up

>the Epic of Gilgamesh predates both these texts by thousands of years and contains many references to thought.

10/10...theory crushed. how does this shit get published?

a theory from the mind of an autistic

Is he not right about the muse concept?

As far as I know, artists from antiquity attributed their talent to some external (divine) force. Once an artist's talent faded, he shrugged and assumed the muse had left him. "Oh well"

You won't find some tortured Van Gogh type back then who ends up being crushed beneath the weight of "his" genius

>Is he not right about the muse concept?
Many Native American tribes (particularly in the Pacific Northwest and nearby areas) have a similar concept for music. Songs are never composed by people, they're always said to come from revelation (that is, some external forcing giving the individual the song). Those people are all still capable of thought.

They did, the hypothesis is based on a radical idea on neuroplasticity. It claims that environmental factors can fundamentally change how your brain works, to the point that even consciousness itself can be altered.

The idea is that during the bronze age collapse created a more unpredictable environment and it made become more self-conscious.

'conscious evaluations' my ass, you would probably react to new things the same way except that instead of hearing the voice of gods you hear the voice of your social studies teacher.

Problem is that the "Bronze Age Collapse" was a Mediterranean/middle-east phenomenon.

How is that applicable to the entirety of the Americas or SE Asia or NE Asia or Africa?

>they come to the park because it is here that they learn who they really are

>The idea is that during the bronze age collapse created a more unpredictable environment and it made become more self-conscious.

Insanely stupid and ridiculous. For one, there was no single "collapse", some states (Egypt, Assyria) survived the collapse. For another, our whole evolutionary history is one of adapting to the unpredictable, there was nothing mind-blowingly unique about the unpredictability of the Collapse.

>how does this shit get published?
Dat sweet jewish atheistic money.

Any retard with a qualification can publish whatever comes out of their rotten intestine as if it was a truth and not an excrement.
Moreover it will be hailed and lauded as science and profound thought and not the ravings of an idiot who cannot comprehend the simple fact that there is more to the world that what is perceived with the senses.

>Epic of Gilgamesh predates both these texts by thousands of years and contains many references to thought.
OP said "cognitive processes such as introspection" and "self-aware"
Gilgamesh is only a counterexample if it has examples of thought inconsistent with bicameralism.
>his theory only seems to fit for SOME of the OT
It would only have to fit the oldest parts of it, right?

>Explain how everyone on Earth switched to a modern mind around the same time period
Does Jaynes actually say everyone switched, and switched at the same time? Does he say indigenous (and uncontacted) peoples are not still bicameral?
If he does, he would need some kind of fringe theory of mind, like morphic fields (think hundredth monkey effect: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundredth_monkey_effect).

>there is no apparent indication that the writers were self-aware

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>2000 BC

Concurrent with Indo-European expansion, ironically.

>the ancients literally heard muses as the direct source of their music and poetry.

This is retarded. Calling upon the muses for inspiration was just a meme, nobody thought they were actually fucking receiving this shit from an external source.

>The bicameral mentality would be non-conscious in its inability to reason and articulate about mental contents through meta-reflection, reacting without explicitly realizing and without the meta-reflective ability to give an account of why one did so. The bicameral mind would thus lack metaconsciousness, autobiographical memory and the capacity for executive "ego functions" such as deliberate mind-wandering and conscious introspection of mental content. When bicamerality as a method of social control was no longer adaptive in complex civilizations, this mental model was replaced by the conscious mode of thought which, Jaynes argued, is grounded in the acquisition of metaphorical language learned by exposure to narrative practice.

Gilgamesh is pretty full of introspection tho

>Breakdown of bicameralism
>Jaynes theorized that a shift from bicameralism marked the beginning of introspection and consciousness as we know it today. According to Jaynes, this bicameral mentality began malfunctioning or "breaking down" during the 2nd millennium BCE. He speculates that primitive ancient societies tended to collapse periodically (e.g., Egypt's Intermediate Periods, as well as the periodically vanishing cities of the Mayas) as changes in the environment strained the socio-cultural equilibria sustained by this bicameral mindset. The Bronze age collapse of the 2nd millennium BCE led to mass migrations and created a rash of unexpected situations and stresses which required ancient minds to become more flexible and creative. Self-awareness, or consciousness, was the culturally evolved solution to this problem. This necessity of communicating commonly observed phenomena among individuals who shared no common language or cultural upbringing encouraged those communities to become self-aware to survive in a new environment. Thus consciousness, like bicamerality, emerged as a neurological adaptation to social complexity in a changing world.

any quotes?

book of Job too, which maybe the oldest book in the OT.

Like Dawkins, I am hedging my bets but towards it being true.
It doesn't help that in my creative moments, there is a voice alien to my ego telling or showing me what to write

Well, I'd be the guy who fucks the little blonde farmbot until her CPU melted and she saw multiple fucking realities.

The first I rejected it imeasiately. Then I gave it a chance and read up on it. I think there is likely a point where humans were bicameral but that barrier would have been broken much earlier than 3000 years ago. I think the argument that complex narrative thought would have broken the bicameral barrier as humans develops complex leach and language. Even anthropomorphizing animals is complex enough to create meta self awareness. Witnessing a dear give birth and nurse, seeing your mate give birth and nurse. Representing that in language, and talking about how the gods gave birth to earth or whatever. All that took place at least 50k years before present. At least. I think the author is trying to get book sales and notoriety by being a contrarian try-hard. The people who told the Odyssey and spoke about gods were self aware. Such silliness. The first dynasty Egyptians were certainly self aware. Obviously there was likely a point where language development and culture forced people out of bicameralism. It may of even been a degrees that only reached full force recently. Just because King Solomon wasn't James fucking Joyce doesn't mean he was just hearing voices. According to this guys standard George Lucas is probably bicameral.

THIS

interesting that pretty much every civilization has some kind of "fall from grace" myth...could be an ancestral memory of what you're talking about.

>imeasiately
man, you butchered that word

Yep, Sunday is fun-day.

cant prove that

>Sample size of TWO
yeah but to be fair it's not like there's a surfeit of sources from that era

>. Besides which, the Epic of Gilgamesh predates both these texts by thousands of years and contains many references to thought.
It certainly does in its final version, which was finally put to written word in the 7th century BC, but earlier fragments call this into question, as older fragments were comparatively simpler

>According to this guys standard George Lucas is probably bicameral.

To be fair, Lucas does completely lack self-awareness.

Nah. He just doesn't give a fuck. He's a shit writer but he just happened to pick out with a film about magic space samurai at the exact moment in American history when people could enjoy a film about magical space samurai. Then he figured out that kids bought movie toys and turned the next five or six films in the franchise into two hour toy commercials.

>most of the OT was composed in the 5th century BC

[citation needed]

>which maybe the oldest book in the OT

the problem with stating it being the oldest book would also mean that all the aramaism must be ignored, it's more of an evangelical meme than anything else, it's more likely an exilic work with pre-exilic conceptions and views.

And the sad thing is, this has set the standard for Hollywood blockbusters since:
>shit writing, scripts written by branding managers and marketing experts
>Use an implausible fantasy setting so that you can bombard the audience with a constant stream of visual stimulation.
>The combination of the two makes for a movie that does mediocre in domestic markets but reaches enough international ones to still be monstrously profitable
>most of the movie's profits come from its toy line, investors won't even consider funding a mega-blockbuster unless it has the potential to tap this market for cheap, disposable junk that parents buy their kids by the shovel load

>t magic space samurai at the exact moment in American history when people could enjoy a film about magical space samurai.
Everyone involved with making the movie was convinced that it was going to tank. Part of the reason why Han Solo's "I'm only in it for the paycheck" attitude was so convincing was because Harrison Ford stopped trying and was only in it for the paycheck. Alec Guinness particularly loathed his part as Obi-wan Kenobi and would straight up ruin a child's day who came up to him hoping to get an autograph. The thing that saved Star Wars was the same thing that made Alien huge: truly fantastic editing

>DUDE what if all supernatural shit was like someone just tripping balls xD
This is something I hear more often than I'd like

>which may be the oldest book of the OT

It's not. Read more.

What I find interesting is that Rogue One, which was a Disney production, is the best movie out of the lot except maybe for Empire. That says something about how indelibly fucked Lucas is as a writer.

Also, fans bitching about Lucas raping their childhoods are retarded. Star Wars was cool when I was ten years old because I was ten years old. And credit to where credit is due: I always loved Alien. John Carpenter's The Thing, too. I saw Empire in theaters and liked it, but even then I remember thinking that Alien was way better. So I guess ten year old me had good taste.

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