Jebus

The more i think about it, the more the Islamic version of Jesus' story seem to make sense

Let's see the Christian version of Jesus
>Is god
>Is also the son of god
>Was crucified by the romans and Barabbas was the one who was set free
Muslim version
>Is a prophet sent by god
>Was saved by god from being crucified (And barabbas was the one who got crucified)

And here's a couple of question
1.If jesus is god, then how could he die?
2.If jesus is the son of god, how could god let his son die?
3.how can god be his own son?

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=tABnznhzdIY
anyforums.com/
twitter.com/NSFWRedditGif

Christianity as a whole doesn't make sense.
The religion isn't complete due to the jews '''killing''' jesus before his teachings were complete.
Also the whole cross thing, it's just silly and insulting, imagine if they wanted to execute him by hanging would the christian sympol be a noose?

Read about the trinity.

>If jesus is god, then how could he die?
By putting a [word meaning the equivalent of "piece" but not actually since saying that would trigger trinitarians] of himself into a bodily shell of organic molecules the same way humans have a soul in a bodily shell of organic molecules. Anything that is alive in the universe can die if you mess it up, Joshua's body was no different.

>If jesus is the son of god, how could god let his son die?
Yahweh delights in blood offerings. He didn't "let" Jesus/Joshua die, he sent him down specifically to die. Maybe he felt guilty about his actions up until that point. We know he can feel remorse because he regretted even creating humanity up until the Flood. Becoming Joshua and doing unto himself what he had done onto others may have been his way of apologizing.

>how can god be his own son?
By putting a [word meaning the equivalent of "piece" but not actually since saying that would trigger trinitarians] of himself into a bodily shell of organic molecules, and retaining the experiences he had while human.

>By putting a [word meaning the equivalent of "piece" but not actually since saying that would trigger trinitarians] of himself into a bodily shell of organic molecules, and retaining the experiences he had while human.
wat.

>1.If jesus is god, then how could he die?
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.....and the Word became flesh and dwelt with us. That's how.

>2.If jesus is the son of god, how could god let his son die?
The hand that stayed Abraham from sacrificing his only begotten son, Isaac, did not stay the hands that killed his only begotten son, Christ Jesus.

>3.how can god be his own son?
The possibilities of an n-dimensional supernatural spirit being are limitless.

By the way, Islam says that the bible is true in the quran, and then says in the hadith that Judas, not Barabbas, was snuck on the cross in place of Jesus.

So instead of taking Jesus' mom's word, Jesus' disciples' word, and the account of Rome, the Mohammadans take Mohammad's word, even though he was born almost 600 years after the event.

You can't say "piece" of god, because then Trinitarians get angry. But that's basically what happened, a portion of God got put into a material shell and experienced mortal human life. Later, when that material shell died, as all shells do, the piece that returned to God retained its memory and identity.
The Word of God became Joshua, who in death returned to being God but remembers all the memories and such he had while being human, which Yahweh only understands second-hand.

Your response to the first and second question are pure mental gymnastics

as for the third question, you can't claim "hurr it's supernatural magic i ain't gotta explain shit" be rational

according to the bible, jesus IS god, not just a portion of him
John 8:58

>John 8:58
No, actually, all that says is that Jesus was at one point equivalent to Yahweh before the birth of Abraham, which is true. The while trinity, essence/energies thing came long after from Catholics inventing dogmas and doctrines. The Father is greater than the Son.

This is mental gymnastics

Point to the word Trinity in any scripture.

youtube.com/watch?v=tABnznhzdIY

>>Muslim Version
>>Was saved by god from being crucified (And barabbas was the one who got crucified)

Really? I didn't know that. What do the muslims say Jesus did after not dying? Is there more to his story?

It's just the plain truth. God became a human in order to die for our sins, which is the price of said sins.

He did so on the cross, and the Father not only did not save him or spare him, but turned his back on him and forsook him.

If you think your meat puppet mind can fully comprehend the triune nature of an eternal supernatural entity,

then

why

don't

you

explain

it

to

us.

i'm not talking about the trinity here

i'm talking about how you made the claim that jesus for some reason "stopped" being equivalent to Yahweh and you didn't clarify how or why

They say he ascended to heaven

Only in the sense that the one who sends is greater than the one who is sent.

They are still one God.

After not dying, Isa ascended directly to heaven, same as Enoch. He'll return at Armageddon to lead the forces of the faithful against the forces of Rome, lead by the one-eyed Anti-Messiah.

John 1:1 says that the Word (Jesus) was with God and was God.
In John 10:30 Jesus said that He and the Father are one.
In John 14:9 He said that anyone who has seen Him has seen the Father.
In Colossians 1:15 Paul wrote that Jesus is the (visible) image of the invisible God.
In Hebrews 1:3 Jesus is called the exact representation of God’s glory
In Hebrews 1:8 God Himself called Jesus God.
God’s Spirit is presumed to be one and the same with God just as your spirit is presumed to be one and the same with you. So if God and Jesus are one and the same, and God and His Spirit are one and the Same, then the three are one.

There is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 45:5-6). Yet there are three persons presented as deity in Scripture: the Father (John 6:27; Colossians 1:3), the Son (John 1:1-3, 14; 8:24; 20:28-29; Romans 9:5; Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1; Hebrews 1:10-12) and the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17; Acts 5:3-4; 2 Samuel 23:2-3; 2 Corinthians 3:18). Lastly, these three are presented as distinct persons (John 8:16-18; Luke 11:1; 3:21-22; Galatians 4:6). Thus from Scripture we learn that although there is one God, there are three distinct persons who are deity. So the Trinity is the biblical position to hold to once one examines what Scripture teaches.

Point to the word "bible" in the bible.

if what you say is right then god is dead right now.

Muslims confirmed as fanfic cult.

Did Jesus not rise from the dead on the third day? (Yes)

Was the Father killed? (No)

Was the Spirit killed? (No)

So what is the basis for your foolish assertion?

>i'm talking about how you made the claim that jesus for some reason "stopped" being equivalent to Yahweh and you didn't clarify how or why
Oh. Well, that happened when Yahweh remained in heaven and Jesus experienced a human life. Yahweh never experienced puberty first hand, the human Joshua did. Yahweh invented stones and the tools to cut them, but Joshua had to be shown how to be a stonemason by Joseph. And so on and so on.

Why don't you do some actual thinking about being a Mohammadan?

When Jesus and the al Mahdi fight together at the end of the world, is it not MUSLIM countries they battle against?

How is it Jehovah loves Jews, and allah hates them?

How is it allah is the greatest of deceivers, and satan is the greatest of deceivers, if they are two separate beings?

No, get out of your cult as fast as you can, even if it means your life.

The Father is in the Son; the Son is in the Father; they are bound by the Spirit; there is only one God.

Jesus is YHWH.

It's essentially exactly the same narrative as Revelation, what with Jesus returning in a blaze of fire to smite the Beast/Dragon and all their followers. The Islamic narrative just changes metaphorical Rome to the actual Roman Catholic church, and turns the Beast (implied Anti-Christ) into an explicitly named Anti-Messiah.

>Jesus is god is the HS
>means the father is the son is the holy spirit
Not the guy you were talking to but that's retarded, if the trinity is correct then when jesus died then god and the holy spirit must've died with him since they're the same thing

The Word could be said to exist in a state similar to that of Yahweh early on, but clearly was changed by incarnating into a human. That much is obvious from any examination of the development of his life and his predicted future actions.

The Father is greater than the Son.

>How is it allah is the greatest of deceivers
what?

In the Old Testament, Yahweh hardened Pharaoh's heart. Similarly, Allah supposedly hardens the heart of all Jews, Christians, and scoffers in general. He deceives them so that they do not believe, and Allah is the best deceiver.

God has more dimensions than you do. You can think about this for the rest of your life and never come to a satisfactory understanding of the triune nature of an eternal supernatural spirit entity who can manifest himself at will.

They are One.

As long as you know the Father is God, the Son is God, the Spirit is God, and that there is one God, you can then go on to understand that the sender is greater than the one sent, and that the Father elevated Jesus above all things but for himself.

But they (the Jews) were deceptive, and Allah was deceptive, for Allah is the best of deceivers (Wamakaroo wamakara Allahu waAllahu khayru al-makireena)! S. 3:54; cf. 8:30

Are they then secure from Allah's deception (makra Allahi)? None deemeth himself secure from Allah's deception (makra Allahi) save folk that perish. S. 7:99

So they schemed a scheme: and We schemed a scheme (Wamakaroo makran wamakarna makran), while they perceived not. S. 27:50

The word for deception/deceiver/scheme is makr. The lexical sources define the term as:

Miim-Kaf-Ra = To practice deceit or guile or circumvention, practice evasion or elusion, to plot, to exercise art or craft or cunning, act with policy, practice stratagem.

Got any sources for these?

Yahweh, The Word, and the Spirit are collectively Elohim, but that doesn't mean they're one. Again, did Yahweh go through puberty?

And here, also, is how one of the earliest sources on the life of Muhammad interpreted Q. 8:30:

Then he reminds the apostle of His favour towards him when the people plotted against him 'to kill him, or to wound him, or to drive him out; and they plotted and God plotted, and is the best of plotters.' i.e. I DECEIVED them with My firm GUILE so that I delivered you from them. (The Life of Muhammad: A Translation of Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah, with introduction and notes by Alfred Guillaume [Oxford University Press, Karachi, Tenth impression 1995], p. 323; capital emphasis ours)

Thus, the Quran unashamedly calls Muhammad’s god the best liar and deceiver of them all! It even dares to say that ALL deception belongs completely to Allah:

And verily, those before them did deceive/scheme (makara), but all deception/scheming is Allah's (falillahi al-makru). He knows what every person earns, and the disbelievers will know who gets the good end. S. 13:42

In fact, the Quran states that Allah actually raises wicked individuals to deceive and scheme:

Even so have we placed in every city, ringleaders of its wicked ones, to scheme therein (liyamkuroo): but only against themselves shall they scheme (yamkuroona)! and they know it not. S. 6:123 Rodwell

And further commands people to do evil so that he can then have a reason to destroy them!

And when We would destroy a township We send commandment to its folk who live at ease, AND AFTERWARD they commit abomination therein, and so the Word (of doom) hath effect for it, and we annihilate it with complete annihilation. S. 17:16 Pickthall

They are Elohim, a plural word, but Elohim is one.

"Let us make man in our image"

And so Elohim made man in His image.

Plural word, used in the singular. Just like Trinity.

Makereen/makr is an arabic word that stands for plotting or "outsmarting", not deceiving

and that whole verse means if you try to trick god or plot against him he will outsmart you because duh he's an omnipotent god

Yes, so if we have one thing, but can clearly be separated into parts (again, did Yahweh go through puberty) what we have are parts of God.

Lest Muslims accuse these lexicons of bias or distortion notice what Muslim scholar Dr. Mahmoud M. Ayoub says when he asks,

"how the word makr (scheming or plotting), which implies deceitfulness or dishonesty, could be attributed to God." (The Quran and Its Interpreters – The House of Imran [State University of New York Press [SUNY], Albany 1992], Volume II, p. 165; italic emphasis ours)

After listing several Muslim sources he quotes a renowned Muslim expositor named ar-Razi who wrote that,

"scheming (makr) is actually an act of deception aiming at causing evil. It is not possible to attribute deception to God. Thus the word is one of the muttashabihat [multivalent words of the Quran]." (Ibid., p. 166; italic emphasis ours)

Unfortunately for ar-Razi, the Quran attributes deception to Allah since it identifies him as the best makr there is.

Ayoub also sources one Muslim who actually boasted of Allah being the best conniver/deceiver/schemer etc.,

"Qurtubi observes that some scholars have considered the words ‘best of schemers’ to be one of God’s beautiful names. Thus one would pray, ‘O Best of Schemers, scheme for me!’ Qurtubi also reports that the Prophet used to pray, ‘O God, scheme for me, and do not scheme against me!’ (Qurtubi, IV, pp. 98-99; cf. Zamakhshari, I, p. 366)." (Ibid., p. 166)

Cannot be separated into parts, no.

>(again, did Yahweh go through puberty)

Yes, and the Father was in Him, as He was in the Father, and the Spirit binding both as One God.

No matter what phase of his life, but for the cross, the Trinity was united.

That the Trinity was temporarily divided on the cross when Jesus became sin is a matter of awe.

Did Yahweh go through puberty? Yes or no?

...

arabic speaker here (not the guy you were talking to)

Makr is usually synonymous with takhtit (Planning) so that makes the whole "evil scheme" point invalid

Your real question is did Jesus go through puberty alone, and of course the answer is no.

Your taqiyya is duly noted.

Taqqiya is hiding that you're a muslim when you're in danger of persecution

it's not lying to random anons on a tibetan house cleaning forums you retard

>Anti-Messiah
How can Muslims believe in an Anti-Messiah, if they don't believe in a Messiah?
Isn't it explicit that there will not be another prophet after Muhammad, and that Muhammad is merely the greatest prophet, not a divine being like a Messiah?

Holy shit you are stupid.
No, it would have remained the ichthys.

So Yahweh is not unchanging and eternal, as clearly he can go through changes based on something as simple as a testosterone molecule?

Your further usage of taqiyya is duly noted.

They call Jesus the messiah, but they don't mean the same thing by the word that the Jews do. They just mean "leader".

Most likely did it to piss off the Jews.

You don't even know what that means, google it

On a scale of 1 to 10, how autistic are you?

allah = greatest deceiver
satan = greatest deceiver

allah = satan

(And Mohammad knew it in the cave, which is why he almost killed himself in a psychotic breakdown.)

The Jewish, Christian, and Muslim concept of "messiah" are all extremely different. Jesus is still the Messiah in Islam, it's just that the word means something else.

Muhammad is the last prophet, revealing the final and most perfected form of monotheism. Jesus returning does not reveal more about the religion, he is just there to triumph over the forces of evil/Rome.

Christians don't worship YHWH, and the Trinity solves your misunderstanding. Why don't you read some actual literature on the subject?

Not an argument.

>Christians don't worship YHWH,
Who is God the Father?

Christians are not Jews, Jews are the people of YHWH. You may as well believe Muslims believe in the horde of other gods their ancestors worshiped.

Islam has no prophets, and thus the only prophecies in the quran were plagiarized and bastardized by Mohammad.

There is no future where Jesus and the al Mahdi fight against the Djahal.

And Rome's destruction is written of in the Revelation.

>allah = greatest deceiver
We already debunked this in an earlier post
so stop being a gigantic faggot

I'd say you are at least an 8.

The reason I say that is autistic people uniquely have a very difficult time thinking of God as a person, and almost invariably think of God as a force.

I demonstrated it above.

Your taqiyya in response was pathetic.

"Well, I'm an English native, and "day" often goes with "bed", so "day" can be "something you sleep on."

If you call that debunking, you better get back to your imam quick, before he blows himself up.

>God is a person
Idolatry

>still using taqqiya maymay
Look up the definition of Taqqiya and post it here, you mental gymnastics using retard

God is not a person. "Joshua, Son of Joseph" was a person, long dead now.

So the God Jesus referred to had nothing to do with the God of Abraham, Issac, and Moses?

You will have to struggle to overcome your autism with respects to God. You must be able to confess aloud Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead to be saved.

Had Jesus not become one of us, He would not have been qualified to be our Kinsman Redeemer.

You worship the father of lies; you post it. It's your invention.

Yehoshua, son of YHWH, is very much alive, having risen on the third day, the Day of First Fruits in the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

He's the only hope for mankind.

Disregard Him, and lose all hope.

>So the God Jesus referred to had nothing to do with the God of Abraham, Issac, and Moses?
Are you autistic?
I'm not autistic, I'm just not an idolater.
>he's a dualist
Fix that heretical mindframe of yours, please.

Jesus is God.

Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Are you that absolutely insipid poster who saved my post of bible verses to prove my "heresy"?

You need pro help dude.

kek

>Yehoshua, son of YHWH, is very much alive
Not a person anymore, and will not become one again until the resurrection of the body. Yahweh and the Holy Spirit will never be people, it is not in their nature.

>Are you autistic?
Not an argumen

What's your point?
You're still ascribing qualities to God, that is idolatry.
No, I am not.

Yehoshua resurrected bodily on Nisan 17, 32 AD and is alive forevermore.

There you go.

I don't think you know what idolatry is.

Exodus 20
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Worshiping God is not idolatry.

A body which would have long died of old age by now. Like I said, Joshua, Son of Joseph is long dead. An Edenic body cannot exist in the current material plane until the demiurge Satan is brought low and the material world is purified.

Yes, the Mohammadans in this thread have denied they worship Shaitan.

Taqiyya.

An eternal body. Just like the one I'm going to get.

Which eternal body you get is still up to you. Right now you're headed for the eternal body unto shame and destruction in a lake of fire.

Not smart.

Oh, you're one of those gnostic dipshits.

When you get over it, read the real bible. Preferably John.

Worshiping false images of God is idolatry. Goodness, you really are autistic.

>An eternal body. Just like the one I'm going to get.
Cannot exist until sin and death have both been destroyed. They haven't. The mess of hydrocarbons constituting Joshua's "body" could not exist for 2000 years, not in that state.

you're either a memer, a retard, or a retarded memer

either way, kys

>The Father is greater than the Son.

BOI

Insofar as he was human and had the weaknesses of the flesh, Jesus son of Mary was lesser than his father. That is what John 14:28 is referring to. But in as much as he also has a divine nature as the Christ, Jesus's divinity was perfectly co-equal with that of God the Father, because they are both one and the same, the Word.

Man. You're not even wrong but your formatting makes me want to punch you in the face.

>Jesus son of Mary
Is this subject the same as or different to The Word? Careful, Nestorius.

Sure. Allah, YHWH, the supreme God in any form whatever you call it MUST necessarily be the best deceiver. Satan may be the "Prince of Lies" but by definition none can be greater at ANYTHING than an omnipotent God.

aaand this is what happens when you question religion. convenient copouts and fallacies of composition

>zizek video without subtitles
How the fuck am I supposed to know what he's saying now?

I'm sorry that pointing out your ignorance hurt your feelings.

Perhaps you'd like to engage your mind in the debate for a change.

Is it possible God is greater than you?

wtf I hate christianity now

If Mary really had a virgin birth, where did Jesus' y chromosome come from?

>make sense
>still involves God dramatically intervening in the world

You realize this is kind of dumb, right? When we're talking about the actions of God Almighty, how does the Muslim version make any more "sense" than the Christian one?

Jesus was supposed to die on the cross. hes God in the flesh he sacrificed himself so we can be forgiven for our sins. read the bible before you make wild claims.

why would him being "just another prophet" make more sense? the whole point is that he is incarnate God. why even call him Jesus, since its clearly not referring to the same story

Islam is some bullshit retcon religion

Islam is the Eureka Seven: AO of Abrahamic Religions (Christianity is PoP, of course).

Physiologically speaking, getting your hands and foot NAILED of a fucking cross (as the shroud of turin says) is fucking dumb and retarded
because they wouldn't be able to support jesus' weight and his body would rip right off the nails and fall off

And no, he did not "die for your sins", that dumb teaching only got in action 1600 years after jesus' crucifixion.

Oooh i don't know maybe it has to with the fact that the trinity is flat bullshit? jesus is god and is also the son of god? and somehow jesus (who is god) dying? how can a god die?