The first ever Veeky Forums general thread devoted purely to Zoroastrianism as a theology, philosophy, and as a historical foundation of empires. Feel free to ask and discuss anything related to Zoroastrianism as well as Pre-Islamic Iranian history. Links and resources: Official Thread theme: youtube.com/watch?v=hpGyQeBAh8Q
Zoroastrianism is an interesting philosophical and theological position and is one of the oldest recorded monotheistic (kind of) religions. It teaches the core tenets of "good thoughts, good words, good deeds" with the stipulation that in order to do a "good" thing you must first have knowledge of the variables and environment involved with the said decision - enforcing a theological precedent of wisdom and patience which some historians have linked to the scientific and political boom found within the Persian Empire. The current theory of Zoroastrian founding is that the "Proto-indo-europeans" which traveled out of Europe and through northern india (creating/inspiring the rigveda) eventually traveled to the lands between modern day Iran and Turkey - this explains some similarities between architecture and more importantly as to why in Zoroastrian prayers "Pure" that is bastardized words from the "Sanskrit" language can be found within their liturgy. Welcome and Enjoy.
Zoroastrianism influenced many later religions, from Manicheaism to Judaism and Christianity. It is to Zoroaster that the Christians can find the source of their Satan as an active, malevolent rival to God.
Carter Wright
Nah.
Ryan Myers
That user's right. Zoroastrian literally invented the dualistic dichotomous religious archetype.
Gavin Evans
Centuries before Dante’s Divine Comedy, the Book of Arda Viraf described in vivid detail a journey to Heaven and Hell.
Could Dante have possibly heard about the cosmic Zoroastrian traveller’s report, which assumed its final form around the 10th Century AD? The similarity of the two works is uncanny
Lucas Fisher
Hinduism and Zoroastrianism have a close relationship, but an oddly inverted one. The Hindus worship the Daeva and shun the Asura, while the Zoroastrians worship the Asura as their chief (only) god Ahura Mazda (Mazda means wise so he is the "wise spirit"), and consider the dīv/deev to be a race of "wrong gods" and evil spirits.
Noah Taylor
>Christianity >dualistic >Borrowed from Zoroastrianism
Nope to all that. Learn to competitive religion.
Oliver Barnes
The late Farrokh Bulsara – aka Freddie Mercury – was intensely proud of his Persian Zoroastrian heritage.
Luis Harris
A interesting topic to get things spinning -
>Derinkuyu. Found in "Cappadocia" within modern day turkey.
It is essentially a gigantic complex of underground rooms and tunnels. There is much debate over who exactly "Made" these tunnels because of the ancient nature of the complex- but many historians argue that they were constructed some where around 26000-4000years ago or earlier by indo-european peoples.
Its size is suitable to house roughly 20,000 men women and children as well as store grain, livestock and resources in times of war. From what we know so far there has never been any catastrophic cave-in in any region of the complex even with the spider webbing of air tunnels found connecting many rooms.
An interesting point about this is that within ancient zoroastrian teachings there exists a story which orders a profit to build an underground refuge for humanity (think noah) ordered by "Ahura Mazda" the principal skygod of Zoroastrianism, Ive looked for some neat video to attach but the only thing I could find was some dumb "ancient aliens " docu claiming that the zoroastrians were actually contacted by Ayy lmaos and ordered to build the underground city.
Regardless I think it is interesting and might be worth looking into during this thread. Anyone think that there might be some pre-history connection between the original founders of Zoroastrianism and Derinkuyu?
Justin Foster
I think you mean "yes" to all that, as comparative religious scholars have long affirmed.
Mason Cruz
Generals are usually frowned upon, that's why there is Veeky Forums.
Ryan Edwards
better picture/ representation
Jeremiah Howard
Nice vids.
1) What do you think of the idea that Vajrayana Buddhism lifted the concept of Sky Burials from Zoroastrianism?
2) I spoke with a serious convert once that related some really interesting oral information on Zahak/Azi Dhaka. Is this the sort of thing that circulates regularly outside of the Holy Texts? I'm curious as to how much of an oral tradition is left between the lines of the Yasna and Vendidad.
3) I've got an ancient Zoroastrian polemic against the Christian, Muslims, and Jews (most Jews), if you would like some lels and/or theological defenses of the faith over in the /omg/ library update thread.
Isn't that somewhat late?
Eli Cook
There a reason Christianity is still here despite persecution while Zoroastrian is not. Hades and Heaven are not present in Zoroastrianism.
Joshua Wright
In Zoroastrianism, the Earth IS Hell. Granted this is a less coercive doctrine than the threat of eternal pain, and it's notably that Mohemmed (piis be upon him) took great pains to really stress the whole hellfire doctrines, which are much more developed in Islam than in Christianity (which really just coopted the Greek system with little Biblical detail to go by).
Nathan Jones
>93 Ok, so here's something interesting as far as underground engineering is concerned, that pops up essentially all over what would have been old Zoroastrian territory:
A friend of mine has been going around Afghanistan in Google Maps and trying to mark questionable archaeological structures that haven't been covered in the common literature for a bajillion reasons. Seem connected to these. There are fucking networks of the things all through completely deserted territory in the 'Stans.
If these cats were building networks of underground water and ice then I don't doubt they could have started in on Cappodocia if the correct karst conditions were met.
Isaiah Thompson
God have mercy and soften your misguided heart
Wyatt Peterson
Sorry, but the Koran is very explicit. Allah himself has hardened the hearts of the unbelivers, so he can have the pleasure of burning them forever in Janna.
Dominic Cooper
>Zoroastrian thread Great! >general You looking to get banned OP?
Jonathan Phillips
Nope.
Juan Bailey
stop worshipping fire
Cameron Murphy
You keep confusing God and allah.
God made allah, allah fell from heaven and became Shaitan.
The more you know!
Alexander Moore
This. Mohammadans are agents of Satan and followers of the false prophet.
Isaac Moore
Sorry honeypie but that's wrong. You see, God IS Allah, "Allah" is just arabic for "God". >The moar you know!
Brandon Davis
The term Allah is pre-Islamic and comes from the Arabic moon god. The heathens don't even realize how satanic their false religion is.
Nicholas Bell
That's Hubal. Allah literally means god in a neutral context. Have you realized it sounds similar to El and Elohim?
Michael Moore
Hahaha no sweetie that's just something Jack Chick made up to sell comics. Allah is the God of Abraham and Jesus.
Tyler Butler
Thats really interesting I haven't seen irrigation technology like that before, I wonder how they got all that done without modern tools. Seems like the Egyptaboo wonder about pyramids isnt the only strange habbinings in the desert.
Christopher Green
>The term Allah is pre-Islamic
And don't you know that words take on different meanings over the ages!
>He was merry and GAY
tee hee hee
Further the similarity of words across various lexicons such as 'Salaam' (shalom etc.) meaning peace factors into it.
Allah has for a long time now meant God.
The moar you know :^P
Luke Kelly
>honeypie >sweetie >this fag
Brandon Stewart
It was recommended to make one in the Veeky Forums culture thread. I wasnt aware that the sticky made some hard fast law against generals especially ones which have interest from the community.
Either way I doubt the mods will be super angry with me just for making a thread which specifically speaks about both history and humanities.
Kayden Garcia
It's only polite to be kind to children and the retarded.
Josiah Bailey
Test
Christopher Cook
Generals are only bad when they become habitual, that's when they breed tripfags and similar cancer. A single thread with no followup about a niche topic is no problem, but calling it a "general" was a rookie mistake that has triggered a lot of PTSD / autism.
Oliver Lewis
>What do you think of the idea that Vajrayana Buddhism lifted the concept of Sky Burials from Zoroastrianism?
Probably introduced into pre-Buddhist Tibet via Sassanid and Sogdian Zoroastrian-influenced practices. It's not a practice found in Indian Vajrayana.
Jacob Collins
Sky burial is also found among Siberian and Native American groups, possibly its more ancient than either religion.
Another intersting topic that I found is the "Athletic" practices of Iran that are Pre-islamic in nature yet have persisted all the way to modern day. Even keeping some of the traditions and music stemming from Zoroastrian culture.
There equivalent of a "gym" a "Zoorkhaneh" roughly translates to "The home or house of power or strength". The wooden boards that almost look like miniature benches are essentially pushup platforms which elevate your chest and add a element of balance to your normal workout. Ive gotten to try them before and they are killer on your shoulders compared to a normal plank position pushup because of the natural wobbles you get when losing your balance.
Lincoln Ward
>It's not a practice found in Indian Vajrayana. Well, this actually begs a shitload of questions w/r/t how old it ACTUALLY is and what the place of the early Greco-Buddhist forms of 'Mahayana' were, as I can see some proto-Vajra elements through the iconography, but that's sorta beside the point, I agree.
This is also a thing, but the academic materials appear to agree that similarities are stronger between the Zoroastrian praxes of death and the Tibetan/Nepalese Vajrayana/Newar than with further removed groups, and I could quibble till the cows came home about further pedantic shit.
The Zoroastrian take is pretty interesting - they say that the reason they do not bury their dead or cremate them is for two reasons. 1stly that a dead body is corrupted with "evil" and that evil might spread to those who spend too much time with the corpse (to me this sounds like a really early realization of germs and disease which might have created an aversion to handling the body and preforming an actual burial) Secondly they cannot cremate the body because the aforementioned "evil" could corrupt the fire which is a symbol of enlightenment and purity within their culture. So it seems to be that the primary reason Zoroastrians do open sky burial is not because of some doctrinal law like in tibetan buddhism. But rather because it is the last option given that cremation or any type of elaborate processing of the body were available.
Brayden Hughes
There is no law in Tibetan Buddhism requiring sky burial, it's just been more practical than digging a grave or the usual Buddhist cremation. There are conceptual links between sky burial and chöd but it's not a compulsory practice.
Dominic Morales
Death is a tool of Ahriman, and represents his (temporary) victory over Ahura Mazda, this is central to the theology so I think the health benefits are incidental and the practise is essentially purely religious. Likewise burial (pollutes the Earth) and burning (pollutes fire) are no-goes, really it was sky burial or cannibalism.
Xavier Peterson
This one tweaks me out beyond the archaeology: google.com/maps/@37.6827215,66.8105697,349m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!6m1!1szlFbLajmFK60.kmXtUfFkjhCw >middle of buttfuck nowhere >bright >sharp angles, new? >no roof >larger than other buildings nearby, but walls too narrow for it to be a complex with four small rooms >smack in the fucking middle of water system and foundation ruin territory
I mean, as a working archaeologist it takes quite a bit to make me go 'wat' and this DEFINITELY made me 'wat.
Gavin Rogers
My mistake then, its been quite a while since I read the Tibetan book of the dead. I could of sworn there was something about skyburial in the first or second bardo. Well thank god they chose sky burial. Lol the alternative seems much worse. Ye olde "Im having grandma for dinner" joke.
Gavin Collins
Yes, that's the modern lie to make Mohammadism more palatable to the western mind.
It's a lie, of course, as is all of Mohammadism.
Robert Cox
allah is Hubal. Hubal is Ba'al. The Arabs have worshiped Ba'al for thousands of years.
Do you really think Arabs worship the God of the Jews?
Jaxson Taylor
allah is the greatest of the deceivers satan is the greatest of the deceivers
allah = satan
James Butler
You're.....gainfully employed?
Angel Bennett
Very. I work 30 hrs a week at a museum as an archival curator and HR assistant.
That's the Chod influence the other kind user was referring to.
Daniel Anderson
what is the structure to the North west? It looks like a smaller version of the one you linked too but the Black/green blurry mass is confusing, is it a small pond or shittons of foliage?
Nolan Murphy
Oh sugarpoops, Mohemmedism is just another barely distinguishable sect of Judaism, just like Christianity. It's wrong and wicked, of course, but no more so than the others.
Daniel Thomas
There are far more and greater differences between Zoroastrianism and the Abrahamic religions than there are similarities.
Ahura Mazda is not omnipotent or omnipresent, but he is omniscient. AM is not all-powerful. Angra Mainyu is not a creation of Ahura Mazda. There exists a realm of existence not subsistent on God. This is anathema in the Abrahamic religions. The Yazatas are no where near analogous to angels.
Besides, heavens, angels, Satan-figures, and places of punishment and pretty universal in pretty much all religious systems.
This everything comes from Zoroastrianism meme is just that - a meme shilled by Zoroastrian scholars in the past few decades. It holds about as much weight as Horus = Christ. No Biblical scholar actually takes it seriously.
Anthony Wright
My respect for you went up two digits. I falsely assumed you were unemployable due to my imagination of the representations upon yourself stemming from your spiritual beliefs. My apologies.
Brandon White
>is it a small pond or shittons of foliage? Both? My guess is it's (the building) modern but who fucking knows.
Dominic Lopez
It's wrong in the very same way that Pharisaical Judaism is wrong.
If you have not the Son, you have not the Father.
>sugarpoops
Thomas Lopez
>There are far more and greater differences between Zoroastrianism and the Abrahamic religions than there are similarities.
Absolutely, but the influences are nonetheless many and profound.
Omnipotence is an incoherent concept, and technically the Bible doesn't claim omnipotence, merely that god is almighty.
Satan being God's creation actually hurts christianity, since it makes no sense (problem of evil). The Zoroastrian approach is the one Christians have effectively taken anyway, how many christians think of Satan as the enemy of god, exactly as Zoroastrians see Ahriman.
Jose Taylor
Hahaha oh gosh dearie, God doesn't have a son, there is NONE that is his equal. You'll be telling me he has a wife next!
Aiden Russell
Inb4 that nigger that claims that Cyrus the Great invented Zoroastrinaism after reading a scroll of Isaiah (probably in English and the King James Version).
Jaxon Long
I also pull 12 hours of grad classes per week.
Anywho in case you missed it due to linking things I've only recently found, here's some of the old Afghan ruins out in the delta, which have barely been touched because of Memslam and three decades of abject war.
I centered the page on one of the most 'wtf' structures in the area. It's the purple marker. It's about a thousand feet wide and octagonal. I haven't the foggiest what it was.
Zoom and scroll around. The site's not undocumneted but there are a bajillion man hours of work to be done just to start asking the basic questions.
Jace Wright
The Church is His Bride.
Matthew 3:17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
Matthew 17:5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!”
Julian James
Three digits.
Now find me some giants in Antarctica.
Jacob Edwards
That's not the claim. The claim is that Zoroaster, a Persian, came into contact with the Jewish scriptures as the Jews were captives in Babylon, and then under Cyrus' Medeo-Persian empire.
The Jews were captives in Babylon from about 608 to 538 BC.
From Encyclopedia Britannica:
Zarathustra, also spelled Zarathushtra, Greek Zoroaster (born traditionally c. 628 bce, possibly Rhages, Iran—died c. 551 bce), Iranian religious reformer and prophet, traditionally regarded as the founder of Zoroastrianism.
So the question who influenced whom has an answer to Judaism influencing Zoroaster; the answer the other way is nil. The Jews left Babylon with the same tanakh they came with that had been started @ 1468 BC.
Jack Kelly
According to Zoroastrian tradition, he flourished “258 years before Alexander” (the Great) conquered Persepolis—the capital of the Persian Achaemenian dynasty—in 330 bce. Tradition also records that he was 40 years old when he converted Vishtāspa, most likely a king of Chorasmia (an area south of the Aral Sea in Central Asia), in 588 bce, thus indicating that his birth date was 628 bce.
Jaxon Butler
God's omnipotence is fundamental to Judaism and Christianity. The Bible is not the only source of theology for Jews or Christians. Don't buy into the Protestant meme.
>problem of evil Free will. This is off topic, but the classical Christian understanding to the problem of evil is that there is no such thing as evil. There is no Ahriman whose very nature is to sow malice. Simply, evil is the rejection of good, just as darkness is the abscene of light.
Satan is not the enemy of God. Satan is the enemy of mankind.
Carter Price
It's the only inspired source. Mixing the holy with the profane does not sanctify the profane.
And that's not to mention that for a while Zurvanism was a dominant form of Zoroastrianism, which states that Zurvan (Time) had twins, Ohrmazd and Ahriman. This is completely beyond the pale.
On the surface the connections look convincing. The deeper you look the more apparent the differences are and how much of the similarities are circumstantial anyway.
Jayden Long
Superficial similarities with profound differences.
That's almost always what you find whenever you compare Judaism/Christianity with any other religion.
>The roots of Zoroastrianism are thought to have emerged from a common prehistoric Indo-Iranian religious system dating back to the early 2nd millennium BCE.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA WHEW LAD GET THAT FIRE WORSHIP ON
Adam White
Exactly.
And besides, Christian thought has what's called the 'spermatikos logos'. Basically means the seed of the word. This was formulated by St Justin Martyr and states that truth is truth no matter where it is found. So if Zoroastrianism also hasn't similar ideas regarding cosmology, eschatology, and soteriology, it's because it's the universal truth of God shining through all times and peoples, even if only in part/distorted.
That's why any thinking Christian isn't bothered by these supposed influences. Dunno how Jews feel.
This is why no one takes Zoroastrianis seriously. Shit like this and washing your face with cow piss (srs) make it a laughing stock.
Luke Powell
>God's omnipotence is fundamental to Judaism and Christianity.
It's incoherent and extra-biblical, I would have thought anyone who wanted to LARP as a theist would drop that howler pretty quickly.
>Free will.
Not an answer. Why did God reveal himself to us thru Jesus? What happened to "free will"?
Noah Bennett
Crashingly wrong, just absolutely a batshit demented claim to make. There is nothing (0) in any sect of Judaism that isn't found in one of it's contemporaries.
Oliver Gonzalez
>It's incoherent
Not at all. Omnipotence makes perfect sense if you spend more than 15 minutes thinking about it, you easily distracted protestant.
Jayden Rivera
Can God make a rock heavier than he can lift?
Jason Harris
YHWH
Jayden Sullivan
Daily reminder that Zoroaster was a Kurd.
Luis Stewart
The Canaanite storm god YHWH?
Dylan Lewis
Jesus is God.
Jesus is revealed as God in the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
Jesus also appears throughout the OT.
Jesus made the universe.
Stop listening to Arius.
Connor Rodriguez
No, they fought against YHWH, which you would know if you had bothered to read the Meshe Stele.
But of course you love your ignorance, and you love promoting the most evil people on planet earth.
Eli Powell
It is the most extensive inscription ever recovered that refers to the kingdom of Israel (the "House of Omri"); it bears the earliest certain extra-biblical reference to the Israelite god Yahweh, and—if French scholar André Lemaire's reconstruction of a portion of line 31 is correct—the earliest mention of the "House of David" (i.e., the kingdom of Judah).
Aiden King
You mean not speaking or writing your god's name? A very widespread custom among other religions of the area. In fact, we don't have the real names of some well-known deities, but only their epithets (for example "Persephone" just means "lady of the garden", the deities actual name was too holy to record and of course the priesthood who knew it are all dead)
Logan Ortiz
Take your meds.
Eli Collins
Yes and then he can proceed to lift the rock that is too heavy to lift while still having made a rock too heavy to lift. And then construct a square circle and teleologically suspend the ethical or what have you, doesn't actually matter.
You know, God doesn't have to make sense to you if he doesn't want to. He resolves impossibility itself.
That's what omnipotence implies, God does not have*strictly any* limits unless he decides otherwise. He can have any and all limits and remain unbound simultaneously. Any and all states or none, whatever. He can bend the fabric of space and time into a fucking lotus if he wants to idgaf, do you not understand the dimensions of this implication or are you a slave of dogma?.
Wyatt Bennett
And Chemosh said to me, Go take Nebo against Israel, and I went in the night and I fought against it from the break of day till noon, and I took it: and I killed in all seven thousand men, but I did not kill the women and maidens, for I devoted them to Ashtar-Chemosh; and I took from it the vessels of Jehovah, and offered them before Chemosh.
See?
Evil people - Ba'al Chemosh
Jewish people - Jehovah
Jeremiah Fisher
No, the one true God. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Nobody else had YHWH.
Benjamin Reyes
A being that can defy logic is by its nature an incoherent concept.
>HURR U CANT KNO THE UNKNOWABLE MIND OF GOD! >DURR DO WHAT THIS BOOK SAYS THE WILL OF GOD IS!
Julian Rodriguez
Apart from the other Canaanite tribes, you mean, who continued to worship Yahweh alongside the other gods of their pantheons?
John Moore
Yes, luckily for us God can dumb himself down to our level and communicate with us. And has. And will.
Why do you think human logic is more powerful than the creator of this universe?
Can human logic create a duplicate universe? Or just shit this one up?
Brandon Thompson
>an actually intresting thread about a obscure religion >turned into a Abrahamic shitflinging contest every time
Ayden Ramirez
So, the actual Meshe Stele cannot convince you that the people of Canaan fought against the people of Jehovah.
You're exactly the reprobate I knew you for.
You say that the Jews worshiped the gods of the wicked and evil and disgusting Canaanites, but fail to mention that every time they did, they were foreign gods, and YHWH punished them for worshiping foreign gods.
Demon gods, like the ones you worship.
Daniel Hughes
Because it is influenced by, and founded upon, Jewish principles. Plus a little fire god.
Zoroastrianism is for fire Jews.
Hudson Long
>dumb himself down to our level
HAHAHAHA
The Bible is FULL of idiotic, obviously wrong, dumb, wicked and absurd passages. Dumb himself to OUR level? I think he may have overshot and dumbed himself all the way to potato!
Also, if God (the almighty creator of the universe) wanted to have a personal relationship with us, then he would a better way than a nonsense book of rubbish, indistinguishable from all the totally man-made mythologies mere humans have created since time immemorial.
Carson Perry
>So, the actual Meshe Stele cannot convince you that the people of Canaan fought against the people of Jehovah.
Everyone knows that much you dunce, the claim you made is that the other Canaanites didn't also worship Yahweh, which is wrong because they did.
Andrew Evans
The text describes: How Moab was oppressed by Omri King of Israel and his son as the result of the anger of the god Chemosh
Mesha's victories over Omri's son (not named) and the men of Gad at Ataroth, Nebo and Jehaz;
His building projects, restoring the fortifications of his strong places and building a palace and reservoirs for water;
His wars against the Horonaim; and A now-lost conclusion in the destroyed final lines.
Choke on some more facts.
Hudson Hughes
t.brainlet
Henry Nelson
>Demon gods, like the ones you worship.
Nigger this ain't kindergarten, I'm too old to believe in faeries.
Thomas Turner
Yes, he has a much better way, and a way apparently unknown to you.
And yes, the bible as the book of truth contains the history of God's chosen people, warts and all. The history of mankind, warts and all.
