A great battle is being fought right now between people who understand the technological side of ETH and realize it's...

would be funny if LTC ended up shooting up to a 30 million marketcap beating ETH..

You're an idiot

Yep, dumb money is right. They will be very easy to profit off.

Yeah it aint gonna happen. Ltc and btc are obsolete eth is the king now. All problems can be ironed out and all innovations and features can be absorbed in to ethereum.

I liked ETH at first before I started reading Vitalik's tweets. He truly thinks he's smarter than everyone and has this pompous attitude which I dislike. i sold all my ETH for LTC.

Features and security literally don't matter, it's about marketing and companies that normies are familiar with joining the EEA. You think normies care about your dumb nerd tech shit? This is about money, and there are some massive pumps coming this year and early next.

1 milliard ETH = 4 Million LTC

Dont be stupid man, you can only buy 6 BTC with that. Keep in mind the RSI Stoychkov charts and you will see it happened before at 5 billiard market cap.

It is overvalued. Many of the newfags that have showed up to crypto in the last few months saw news articles talking about eth soon beating out btc and believe that crap. Vitalik will screw them.. read his twitter and blogs he has no care about his eth users or any crypto in general, even tells his followers to invest in other things than crypto, only the big investors backing him he cares for and their money/influence

Yahoo refused to sell for 50 billion, then for 30 billion, then a few years later for 15 billion.

Then finally sold for 4 billion to the lowest bidder.

Buy high, sell low, Yahoo style.

Ok, let me explain something about bubbles and trading

no matter how retarded a bubble is, you should ride it no matter what, make money on the long term its about trend follow, value investing its no longer a thing, you just buy, set a stoploss and let the money come, when the trend revert you will cut losses easyly

Nobody answered my question still, how do you evaluate ETH? There is no money on the books to give you an inherent value as with stocks, how do you decide whats overpriced and what isnt?

Ill tell you; you dont. This is a commodity more or less, the only determination of price is demand and supply.

Has anyone ever seen Vitalik eat?

>OP shorted ETH

Is it time to sell ETH for good?

>thinking the value of ETH is the coin itself

No one gives a rat's ass about fundamentals. This market should have told you that three months ago.

Do you really think Bitcoin has more technological, intrinsic value than gold? Fuck no. And yet, there it is, worth more than gold and almost every major Fortune 500 stock.

This market is hype, and only hype, and you should ride it. Crypto isn't even a currency at all, nor will it ever be. Just tokens with their price being driven in the world's most volatile collectible's market.

How long can they keep convincing normies that they're "buying Bitcoin at $50" like the eToro ads say?

If the 'flippening' happens surely normies will realize that it's not bitcoin at $50, it's Bitcoin at $3000.

its almost like market prices are driven by human behaviour

You will kys soonwhen eth reaches 1 trillion market cap

Your buying the speculation you dumb fuck just like anything else. Literally everyone here in Sili Valley is trying to figure out to adopt the platform for future dapp usage and are currently working on them as we speak. STFU and just BUY. God you Midwest inbreeeeeds are dumb.

Ive seen vitalik up close irl. He is a lot shorter than you would think.

Hes also pretty funny.

It's funny when people think some of these tech block chains are overvalued at $5, $20, $50, $400, $2500.... Have you even looked at the stock markets? The stock prices for the Tech sector with their millions of shares priced at those exact ranges? Who could've seen Amazon hitting $1000 a share?

Crypto prices for a token, while sure are different than stocks, act in the same way. They share movements, they both show a value for the company. Sure, block chains for the most part are decentralized, but there are core workers and miners associated with the tech which are essentially the company. The market cap for crypto currencies are not that high relatively. We're still at the ground floor, reacting to the daily fluctuations in speculation. Long term, crypto is not going anywhere and only has room to grow. Make smart, safe bets. Diversify. Watch out for emerging technologies, and invest only if you've done your due dilligence.

>everyone here in Sili Valley is trying to figure out to adopt the platform for future dapp usage
For real? Can you give example? Not trying to prove you wrong, I'm genuinely curious.

You can tell he's 5'4" - 5'8"

I would need 2 plus hours and a spreadsheet to accurately state who's involved. Don't have anymore time to spend this. You've been warned. Let's just go with that.

Bwahaha. So you can't name even one.

The biggest problem I see is that eth is bot limited. It is inflationary and the supply will continue to grow meaning each eth is worth less each day. Currently that is fine since people continue to buy in, however unless people start using eth as the fuel it was designed to be there will come a point when the price will start falling hard.

if anybody honestly thinks autistic fucking "tech" people have any position to decide what something's value is as a token or fake currency, they are fuckingt retarded

"culture" or "society" decides the value of something, not technology. fucking idiots. value is something "we" agree on, it isn't something that is inherent

Isn't ETH far less attractive for its actual use if it's suler fucking expensive? I'm pretty sure it isn't supposed to function as a store of value

Inflation is already factored in retard

What is the value then? What good will buying ETH do for my lambo fund?

A gold digger's wet dream.
>tiny qt autist that you can put in a pocket
>generates billions of $ through his 230 IQ alien brain
What a time to be a gold digging slut.

By having peopel consume the coin as fuel, removing it from existance, or having the price drop? Yes, it is 'factored' in.

this guy is probably correct
there are literally hipsters with eth tattoos

hey faggot, let me tell you how the real world works

buy high
sell low

I don't think Bitcoin or Ethereum will be the coin that will take the market. Because the banks and silicon valley are now working on a coin with privacy build in. Which will probably be rolled out to the public in the future and become the default currency for crypto.

But the market is still in it's early stages. 100 billion dollars is nothing when it comes to the currency market. So ETH still has lots of room to go up. And it will, until the third wave coin tech comes out.

So I totally believe in ETH for the time being.

Definitely early the dotcom bubble was 25x bigger than the crypto market cap now

>Will it continue or will they finally run out of bags and get demolished by the top 40 Eth account holders cashing out?
They're not likely to cash out dummy. Once we go to proof of stake, they'll have a source of perpetual income, literally growing money on trees the 21st century way. Selling the staked coins - sure, selling the principal - just why? Top 40 ETH holders weren't some dumb poorfags. I recall reading one of the guys who first met Vitalik and sponsored them to the tune of a few hundred thousands was an angel investor himself.

This is the correct answer.
Bitcoin has the right design, but being right makes it harder to market.
Decentralization goes against human nature. Most people need to be led by a face they can believe in. Buterin says all the right things to appeal to the reddit crowd - musings on open borders and humanitarian goals mixed with "geek" stuff for non-nerds.
Ethereum itself is filled with sleek names for their features and releases. Homestead, Raiden, Metropolis, Casper... Who cares what it does, it sounds cool and there's movement. In the easily agitated normal mind, movement is ALWAYS good.
The comparison to Steve Jobs is apt. Ethereum is the next Apple, while Bitcoin is Linux. Ideology doesn't make money.

>people who understand the technological side of ETH and realize it's severly overpriced for its current state
I understand the technical problems with ETH. Technical problems can be fixed. Bitcoin had and has plenty of them. What really matters is what ETH can become 10 years from now, that's what's driving its price up.

Youre overestimating how competent silicon valley is.

the hodl meme is real. check out any of the normie crypto subs on reddit and they're being told to hodl like cattle waiting for a slaughter.

>Technical problems can be fixed
They could have not been designed into the system in the first place, but the ethereum developers decided to ignore all of the existing literature on verifiable computation and lessons from Bitcoin in place of a "Turing complete lol javascript developers can now write legal contracts!" system.

If they were to fix these problems the resulting system would be so close to Bitcoin that there wouldn't be any value proposition left.

>If they were to fix these problems the resulting system would be so close to Bitcoin that there wouldn't be any value proposition left.
Then why is bitcoin's scripting language ugly as fuck and can't do nearly as much as much as Solidity can?

It can't extrospect data from the current block because that makes it impossible to validate transactions prior to being mined and greatly complicates caching of signature validation.

Everything else that solidity can do, Bitcoin script can do.

It may be a shitshow but it least it's not gratuitously inefficient. And it also has much better multisig support.

this x100, sometimes great posts are ignored, this guy has got it spot on

Compsci master here, how refreshing to read something like this.
That being said, the pump this year really caught me off-guard. I thought Eth problems would be glaringly obvious after DAO and fork debacle. To me it's basically a 100% ponzi by now. I suspect even some of the foundation members know this.
I'm looking to be the guy shorting at the right time, but it's hard. I also suspect some of the large investors (institutional money) just using this project as a way to fleece normies. And they have endless fiat to buy amongst themselves. Polo might be in on it (not far fetched, MT Gox had bots to drive up the price).

just too many retards who missed on BTC thinking they will make it in long term with ETH

fucking jokers

That's terrifying.

PS. do you see any potential in coins like SIA with the decentralized storage models? I feel that these have similar unsolvable problems and will all fail. If you don't wanna answer no biggie, just know that your post is the most valuable post posted on this board in probably weeks. Pearls and the swine won't even notice.

>normie alert

So tell me should this goy buy some Litecoin or not?

The bubble will burst eventually. Normies who prop up eth will fall hard and perhaps leave the market for good.

Just buy the dips, sell the pumps and always be ready to jump ship before the final slide

Half of that post says absolutely nothing.
The only thing of substance in the first half is "ICOs are scams", which everyone already knows.
The 2nd half says "look at how bitcoin does things" when bitcoin is a slow piece of shit and the goals of bitcoin and ethereum are different. Also the poster seems to think that with ethereum "everyone executes everything" and that's wrong. That's it.

Just because someone typed a big post that sounds smart and kind of supports whatever point of view you have, doesn't mean it's a good post.

Is that what a really high does of acid does to your vision? Looks cool as fuck.

I get that you want to protect your investment but you ignore his points about front running (Bancor is subject to this), money losing bugs in non-trivial smart contracts (corroborated by more than one professional, implying no real world company in it's right mind will deploy anything on the eth blockchain ever), scalability which by now is a glaring problem (1 ico congests the network, lol can you imagine thousands of heavily used dapps running on it at the same time worldwide?) etc.. etc...

tldr youre a shill

Aeternity platform will eventually beat Ethereum because smart contracts and oracle will be on the main platform, not on apps added post-hoc.

>money losing bugs in non-trivial smart contracts (corroborated by more than one professional, implying no real world company in it's right mind will deploy anything on the eth blockchain ever)
What? This logic is so wrong that it's actually pretty funny. This is like saying no serious company would ever use the internet because some websites have serious security flaws. Companies don't care about irrelevant smart contracts being poorly written.

I looked into that, but Ethereum will supposedly deal with this issue through sharding, so who knows how it will all turn out in the end.

>Do you really think Bitcoin has more technological, intrinsic value than gold?

actually yes

That sounds interesting, I always thought oracles were another glaring problem for ethereum. In the sense that they defeat the whole purpose of decentralization and trustlessness.

Thanks very much.

I know the Sia developers personally and have audited their code, in particular the crypto stuff where I'm an expert. That's all solid, they're using standard signature primitives in the correct ways, which is good, but it can also (almost) be said for Ethereum.

The unsolvable problems they have to deal with are incentive models and identity/reputation. I'm not an economist or game theorist, I can't say much about incentives except to say that the Sia folks are extremely smart and have put a lot of thought into this. To be a host you need to put up a fairly large bond and you are punished severely for any downtime, which discourages casuals and also works as an anti-sybil mechanism, which means that your host uptimes are independent and high. Then when you're renting space, you split your data up using a Reed Solomon erasure code, upload encrypted chunks to everybody, and then you need 1/3 of your hosts to fail independently before any data loss can occur. If everyone is independent and 95% up, which is abhorrently low, then a 20-of-30 split gives you 13 9's of reliability. On that point these coins blow everything else out of the water.

StorJ works similar, the main point of contention between them as I understand it has to do with StorJ having a "renters actively pay every period" vs Sia's "renters put up a bond which they refill periodically, and can drain, and hosts are automatically paid from this". This affects some edge case somehow, I don't remember the details.

Filecoin I understand just copied the Sia model and made an ICO out of it. Very frustrating. One thing worth noting is that the Sia people have never ICO'd, they have tried explicitly to avoid any security issuance, premining, "ICO" bullshit or other scam-like business structures. Instead the developers and a few others take a 1-2% fee on each transaction, similar to ZCash but significantly less....

>bitcoin is a slow piece of shit
Do you believe adding a global random-acccess key-value store would make Bitcoin faster? Or using recoverable signatures which cannot possibly be batch-validated? Or failing to support any intrinsic multisig so that the key-value store is required for even the most basic functionality?

How about using a program model where everybody has to execute everything (except for the production of digital signatures, sure, they used the right model there, only to avoid exposing cryptographic secrets along with all the other secrets)?

Bitcoin is pretty unimpressive but Ethereum makes everything way way worse.

The idea is that the attack surface for any non-trivial smart contract on chain is so large that no one but retards will send serious money into any of those (see DAO),
Multinationals will do their multi million dollar business logic on private systems and networks, without exposing their code to the outside world when it's not needed. And with parties they can sue when shit hits the fan.
Ah... why am I even bothering. Keep on believing!

...before launching, David from Sia asked me repeatedly if there was a way he could do file storage contracts with Bitcoin so that he wouldn't even need a coin. We worked on this for a while but couldn't find anything that didn't require general ZKPs such as SNARKs.

You could sorta do it on the original Bitcoin with OP_CAT, because you can hack together Merkle proofs with that, but it's gross and anyway isn't supported anymore.

So they're very honest people and they're certainly people I am willing to bet on.

Whether the systems can actually work....well, as you say, there are very hard problems surrounding them. I don't know. It's a pretty big gamble on incentive models.

Lol nah

Why did the Ethereum developers ignore all of the literature about verifiable computing or about language design that's amenable to static analysis? This is why you can't write nontrivial smart contracts in Ethereum, it's not a dick-measuring contest about who is the best coder.

In addition, the lack of almost any cryptographic primitives means that you can't do Ethereum contracts without exposing significant amounts of private data, which is not only bad for privacy, but also creates frontrunning possibilities and censorship incentives.

Le new paradigm meme.

BTW, if you're curious about intelligent smart-contract directions, look into Russell O'Connor's work, as I mentioned. I'm not sure if he has slides up or talks, but he's thinking about language design with an eye toward strong provable assurance of various properties, which is exactly what you need for smart contracts.

In the privacy/scalability direction Andrew Poelstra has been talking about this "scriptless script" thing that could work in Bitcoin, he has some slides here
download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/wizardry/mw-slides/2017-05-milan-meetup/slides.pdf
if you want to take a look.

There are some really cool projects in this space, I hope the ponzi's don't poison it so much that no investment $$'s are willing to touch it :(

Thanks for taking the time man!
Hope you find the next big smart contract bug and empty it :) you seem to put your study work in and can thus make great decisions at the technical level at least. I'm way past bedtime so gotta run now!

I don't know, is bitcoin's scripting language verifiable? The only crypto I know of with verifiable programming is Tezos since it uses OCaml and no one seems to be going crazy over that for some reason.

Too late man, this stuff is full ponzi

Real breakthrough will happen, probably decade from now

First you need a real crash to get rid of the scummy trash

It will happen

Ok, great talking to you!

No worries, I'm quite gainfully employed doing cryptographic work right now, I'm doing better than Veeky Forums without trading at all. Definitely getting time to study and build cool shit.

People buy apple instead of building PCs. ETH will win social construct. Normies like it. My CEO wrote about Ethereum last week. It's going mainstream.

>My question is, who's going to end up winning the battle?
Me because I bought in when it was $20.

Though once it gets to $320 and stays there I'm probably gonna blow my load. The price is pegged to BTC too much, I don't trust it. What's a good car I can get with the $24,000 I'll have?

No, Bitcoin's script is really shitty for verifiability. It doesn't have loops which makes analysis much easier but ultimately it's not designed the way that I'm advocating.

Most Bitcoin smart-contract applications involve chaining together transactions and proving things about them, which gives you "verifiability" in the form of traditional proofs like you find in the crypto literature. Not like a proof of program correctness.

Hey user, I've found your posts absolutely fascinating. I'd love to ask you a few questions to gleam a more fundamental understanding of the whole process. Perhaps you wouldn't mind dropping me a bell on this throw-away e-mail and then I could contact you from my real one??

[email protected]

>A great battle is being fought right now between people who understand the technological side of ETH and realize it's severly overpriced for its current state

>not listing a single technological reason why it'd be 'severly overpriced for its current state'
lel

obviously just an ETH shorter like these guys

trying to bait gullible anons to sell them cheap ETH

>The idea is that the attack surface for any non-trivial smart contract on chain is so large that no one but retards will send serious money into any of those (see DAO)
>The idea is that the attack surface for any non-trivial website is so large that no one but retards...
This is exactly what you're saying. Web servers are turing complete too, you know. I mean, the poster you replied to already said this. You're an idiot.

1. Repeating myself: bitcoin and ethereum do not have the same goals. Turns out that adding more features increases resource demand, who would've thought.
2. If ethereum wanted to copy anyone to improve ethereum's speed, it wouldn't be bitcoin, because again, bitcoin is a slow piece of shit.
3. Ethereum as it is currently is not the final version, it's in development. Saying "ethereum is slow right now" is pointless. They are researching PoS and sharding to significantly improve scaling. The ice age difficulty bomb exists precisely to make PoW not possible over a longer period of time, forcing ethereum to change.

The reality of the situation is that
1. Vitalik and at least some other devs publicly disapprove of the current ETH valuation because they don't think the current technology justifies the price. Anyone calling ETH a ponzi is retarded just based on this post alone.
2. The devs are doing significant research in the crypto field. More than most other cryptos. It's not a ponzi or a scam. No one from the dev team is asking people to buy ETH. Well they did in the ICO but any shilling afterwards is not coming from the devs. Anyone who hates on Ethereum because of the valuation of ETH, or calls it ponzi/scam is an idiot in my opinion.

First reply meant for

>Turns out that adding more features increases resource demand, who would've thought.

This does not need to be true, cf Zero-Knowledge Contingent Payments which can emulate a huge swath of smart contracts on Bitcoin while requiring verifiers to check only a single hash preimage.

> No one from the dev team is asking people to buy ETH
Open your eyes. The EF has their fingers in everything, this is so far into scam territory you have to be willingly blind not to see it.

Most of this post is valid, the SEC bit is bullshit though, ICOs state that Americans can't buy it for a reason.

I'm really good with computers too, And I can say for a fact ETH is going to hit $500 by the end of the month

Hey, whats your opinion on factom?

Word well put

I haven't studied the ether spec closely enough yet so forgive my dumb questions. can you explain how does the protocol ensure that each node is running code exactly as specified in a contract? can a hijacked ether node return some seemingly legit results to pollute the chain? how bad would it be if someone finds an evm exploit to break out into the host? I suppose if this is exploited fast enough via some worm/botnet the whole ether network could be wiped out overnight?

>spec
Go frost for control, fire for AoE, and arcane if you're a retard.

I would also like to know if op has an opinion on fct

ETH is currently undervalued.

How is this not obvious?