Can we talk about pre-colonial Cascadian/Alaskan civilization? It's one of those cultures that's so beautifully unique...

I wish more of their stuff survived. Sadly a lot was made of wood and the exampled that survived are pretty beautiful. Idk these people remind me of the ainu or siberians. I wonder if they had contact.

>Idk these people remind me of the ainu or siberians. I wonder if they had contact.

The Pacific Northwest lies on a warm ocean current from Japan, and even when the first Europeans were settling the area there were records of Japanese ships being washed ashore. Some tribes also claim to have made contact with Japanese sailors before European contact was established. There are also certain cultural similarities in things like grave markers which are only shared between Japan and the Pacific Northwest.

>25,000 years of tradition
>Natives Americans came to North America 12,000 years ago
What did he mean by this?

wow man it's almost like there was a land bridge from siberia that allowed the first people to reach America wouldn't that be wild

>second half of the 21st century

Not that guy, but I dont' have a problem with the number. The Clovis first model hasn't been taken seriously for a long time. Now the prevailing wisdom is that settlement in the PNW happened through the use of boats as people were following marine resources along the coast. There's still no clear date for when this started; this is partially because f the difficulty that comes with finding coastal sites that old, and partially because settlement didn't happen all at once. Either way, the date keeps getting pushed back, and most archaeologists are now pretty fine with dates between 20-25 thousand years ago.

Anyone here read The Adventures and Sufferings of John R. Jewitt : Captive of Maquinna?

>On 22 March 1803, the day before the Boston intended to set sail, many Nootka came aboard to trade and were given dinner. At a signal, the Nootka attacked, and all but two of the white men were killed. Jewitt suffered a serious head injury but his life was saved by Maquinna, who saw how useful it would be to have an armourer to repair weapons. (One other man—the Boston's sailmaker, John Thompson—was in hiding until the next day, when Jewitt pretended to be his son and begged Maquinna to spare his "father".) Maquinna asked Jewitt if he would be his slave and Jewitt assented under duress, as the alternative was immediate death (p. 31). This was the beginning of his three years among the Nootka.

I've just started it myself, but apparently he becomes quite successful within the tribe, and even ends up marrying the daughter of another chief. The descriptions of slavery are actually quite noble (he's fed the same food as the chief, and the first night he's imprisoned by king Maquinna, he sleeps in the same bed as Maquinna's children so he won't be murdered in the night by the other people of the tribe. It almost reminds me of the slavery of the ancient Greeks, where the slaves are treated as part of the house hold.

An interesting story to say the least.

I'm pretty sure it was the infernal Anglo's fault for trying to completely scrub their language and culture from existence with residential schools, actually.

I specialized in Russian Alaska in grad school, ask away Veeky Forums

Give us a quick rundown on russian policy against the natives

>archived.moe/his/thread/2351666/

Anyone want to talk about treaty discussion? Just a few years ago the local tribe in my town ratified treaties with the provincial government to reclaim land rights to a nearby island as well as some other benefits.

The actual legal disputes going on right now are usually ignored by both sides of the political spectrum, but they're extremely interesting. If British Columbia can actually set up a legal basis of legitimacy with the various native tribes here, it would mean that rather than being merely a 200 year old part of Canada, that on paper we'd be heirs to a 3,000 + year old civilization.

Of course there's still a long way to go, but the efforts at cultural revitalization and legal reconciliation that are happening are really interesting to watch. Some groups still completely reject the authority of the Canadian government over their land, and there's dozens of languages right now which scholars are fighting hard to preserve from extinction. Many treaties are being written and re-written right now, and how it all ends up could be anyone's guess.

For a country like Canada especially, which doesn't have much history to it, this has the possibility (if the cause is taken with bravado) to completely change the national character of my province.

I'm all for this. First Nations have the potential to be awesome, and need a little help back on their feet with community work.

>blaming Anglo on your own failings
That why you'll never leave the trailer park, red deer.

Oh the arrogance is never ending.

You invaded and topple their way of life, completely mitigating native threat to colonial expansion. Segregated them to tiny areas of their own.

And now you want to 'make them awesome lololololol' with community services!

A pox on all modern white people. You're all so cursed it makes me scream.

youtu.be/GNi__fnadTM

>civilization

culture =/= civilization

>You
But that's wrong you dense fuck.

Those two Anons did none of the first thing. Don't mistake their ancestors for them. You don't have to condone the things your ancestors did.

I think you're missing the point.

I'm saying the government should work with the different tribes here as actual political actors and separate nations. In our Parliament for example, not one single tribe is represented or has a seat at the table. Not one.

A while back, during the pipeline fiasco, a group, I believe the Unist'ot'en although I might be mistaken, suggested that the government give them the right to call in the military in order to prevent encroachment of their land by companies.

This was rejected by the government, but why? If chiefs were given the right to call in the military to protect them, that not only legitimizes the chiefs and tribe, it also legitimizes the military. If the treaties and reconciliation of our province wasn't so consistently half assed, it could completely turn our national consciousness on it's head. Lots of Latino countries (Mexico particularly comes to mind) embrace their pre-colonial heritage as a source of national identity, but in the US and Canada we continue to push a sort of English dominated multiculturalism, which suffocates any organic culture from developing.

Also a lot of the art forms that are unique to the pacific northwest, ceder hats, totem poles, potlatches aren't (as seems to stupidly think) the culture of one particular tribe, they're a kind of art that dominates the entire region (even today) as a kind of supracultural institution, a unique civilization that can be shared by everyone here. There's no reason for anyone living in the Pacific Northwest not to embrace this.

Finally, unless something is done to preserve the languages here, they will die. I'm among the people who believe that each language has a cultural logic and way of existing in the world woven inside it, so by losing these languages we lose a completely organic connection with the region, a wealth of philosophy, and a way of conceiving existence. It's a shame we aren't putting more effort into preserving them.

Shut up slave.

Watching them simper around talking about how cool the natives could be and how Canada could now glom on to a '3,000 year old culture' if only they could get them back on their feet hahaha with some community work makes me fucking puke.

It makes me sick to my stomach.

There was NO 3,0000 year old culture in the first place lol.

And you're a nerd.

>There was NO 3,0000 year old culture in the first place lol.
Well of course not, there likely wasn't human habitation 30,000 years ago.

You should calm down.

>In our Parliament for example, not one single tribe is represented or has a seat at the table. Not one.

Because you subjugated them you loony Canadian asshole. But now you're feeling some crazy white guilt and want to help them become awesome.

You're the only problem they have ever had. You want to see the biggest barrier that they have?

Go into your bathroom and stare into the mirror until you see it.

And what, you have a fucking cedar hat fetish now??? You want them making cedar hats????

AND HOW ABOUT INSTEAD OF MAKING THEM LEARN AN OLD DEAD LANGUAGE YOU TEACH THEM C++ OR MANDARIN YOU STUPID FUCKING ASSHOLE

>it would mean that rather than being merely a 200 year old part of Canada, that on paper we'd be heirs to a 3,000 + year old civilization.

From crazy canuck user further up.

>settlement in the PNW happened through the use of boats as people were following marine resources along the coast

oh sure, this is fine but mention the Solutrean hypothesis and everyone loses their fucking minds.

>the difficulty that comes with finding coastal sites that old

That's cause they would all be underwater.

How much help do they need? Because so far it's been an endless stream of gimmedats with no real discernible benefit. Every rez I've been on has been an underdeveloped backwards trashland full of wrecked cars and trailer homes. The only nice places were the grounds of the casinos.

You are the most awful person i've seen on this board since it was started. You are a disgrace to cultural individuality and intellectualism and you should be ground down into fertiliser.

Fellow British Columbian here, I talked about this with you in a thread here a few months ago. You seem pretty passionate about this, why don't write our local government or start a party or something?

Stop having native fetishes fruitcake.

It's not okay

The Co-opt and Steal Native Culture Party?

Where every Canadian family has their own totem pole and cedar hats are the national headgear?

I'm not sure what angle you're trying to get at here. Yes we are aware that the British toppled their society, but nobody is talking about white guilt or SJW shit, we are just discussing the possibility of legitimizing and attempting to restore a culture that we don't want to see lost

that's because the solutrean hypothesis is bullshit user

You don't understand the basis of it and so your opinion is worthless.

>legitimizing and attempting to restore a culture

Are you bored and is your life so fruitless that you have to look to the natives for something interesting and meaningful?

it's not though, very plausible.

First of all, I'm not .

Secondly I'm a first generation immigrant to BC. I grew up here, but my family never subjugated anybody. My ancestors were Amish, which is honestly a lot less interesting than the culture that still exists here, so I'm not trying to claim any cultural superiority either. It's a very normal sentiment to idolize the past, and I prefer the history of the area I actually grew up in and live in to a bunch of stoically uptight farmers with strong moral and religious convictions I don't even agree with.

>And what, you have a fucking cedar hat fetish now??? You want them making cedar hats????
Since we're anonymous, I'm going to go ahead and state that I feel like a lot of you guys have internalized some sort of self loathing from the English pricks that dominate our country. Don't take that out on me.
The cedar hats here are an art form, and I don't see how it's fetishistic to admire them. Do you like origami? The weaving in some hats make origami folds look like horse shit. It's incredibly impressive to take strips of cedar and turn them into an elegant hat that fits cozily and doesn't have any ends sticking out. I'd like to see that art form make a come back, because it's not only beautiful, but it's unique to this little part of the world we both presumably live in. I don't think we should have "them" making cedar hats, but I do think there wouldn't be any harm in teaching kids how to weave hats instead of how to dance hip hop or quote Orwell or all the other gay shit I was forced to learn in school.

>AND HOW ABOUT INSTEAD OF MAKING THEM LEARN AN OLD DEAD LANGUAGE YOU TEACH THEM C++ OR MANDARIN YOU STUPID FUCKING ASSHOLE
Because I actually believe there's an inherent value to language. I also think people should make an effort to lean Latin and ancient Greek. Not because it's "useful" or "practical" or any of the other spooks that haunt Canada's national consciousness, but because languages allow the soul to conceive reality.

Yep.

A boring white fucker with a native fetish. I knew it

>Amish
Sumas?

>Because you subjugated them you loony Canadian asshole. But now you're feeling some crazy white guilt and want to help them become awesome.
So what do you suggest instead? Fucking ignoring them more till they've completely disappeared? Just because bad stuff happened in the past doesn't mean it should be repeated in the future. If we actually give these tribes recognition as equal political actors to the various communities and political parties here, that would be a huge step towards decolonization and national legitimacy, not "crazy white guilt".

Peope only care about white civilizations so gtfo

If they want to be a part of our government, they can get elected like everyone else.

I'm sorry, but it appears you completely misunderstood me. Admittedly, I said it in a crude and simplistic way, but I am by all means on your side.

Though....I would like to point out that pot-stirrers like ATCR accomplish nothing.

>oh sure, this is fine but mention the Solutrean hypothesis and everyone loses their fucking minds.
The Solutrean hypothesis has absolutely no evidence for it. It's mostly based on superficial similarities between two kinds of artifacts used thousands of years apart and in very different locations. If you know anything about lithic analysis, Stanford's arguments seem really stupid. More pre-Clovis artifacts being found since the 1970s, and recent genetic studies, have made it seem even more ridiculous. There's a reason it's never been taken seriously.

The Solutrean hypothesis also has absolutely no relation to what I was talking about. Not even in the ideological way you seem to be implying. There was a ton of resistance to the idea before the evidence eventually became too overwhelming for most of the archeological community to accept.

>That's cause they would all be underwater.
No all of them but yes, that's part of what I was getting at. Good job for pointing out the obvious.

>tribes recognition as equal political actors

So are you going to carve Canada into hundreds of tribes or are you going to force the natives to submit to your Federal parliamentary representative democracy under a constitutional monarchy?

You can't have both.

Everything you just said in that paragraph was wrong in some way.

Chill dude.

Dang. Roasted.

Better than being a soulless bitter racist without an ounce of national pride.

I bet you have a picture of Queen Elizabeth on your wall too.

Since you mention it, the Cascadia party is running candidates this election. I plan to vote for them myself, but mostly I'm interested in the cultural undercurrents going on all around us. As a province, and hell, a country, we're searching for some form of identity. Bioregionalism and the anti-colonial efforts of some tribes here strike me as crucial in forming that identity.

>people actually responding to solutrean hypothesis trolls
Has Reddit taken over this board? That is the oldest bait on Veeky Forums next to kangz trolling.

Only a damn fool would see native tribalism as superior to or more desirable tham Amish culture.

Enjoy that

I don't know what happened. All I did was say "Yep, natives are awesome. We should work with them to restore their communities and try and heal our screwed up relationship", and the whole thread exploded. It's not like I was patronizing or over-glorifying them.

>First nations could be AWESOME with a little help from the white man haha im such a good person

Seriously crucify yourself

nature god art

>absolutely no evidence for it
wrong
>superficial similarities
what other similarities are you looking for? Should they be more sincere?
>thousands of years apart and in very different locations
that's the point, it's strange.
>recent genetic studies
lol source
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solutrean_hypothesis#Genetic_research
>Solutrean hypothesis also has absolutely no relation to what I was talking about
you specifically mentioned people settling the Americas by boat traveling the coastlines BEFORE the waves of immigration from Siberia, which is what the Solutrean hypothesis suggests. You were just talking about the Pacific, whereas I raised the Atlantic.

Veeky Forums is full of butthurt autists and revisionists who will argue over anything. Don't take it personally.

They have Japanese material influence and arguable cultural influence. Boats with dead people drifted to the coasts and metal was often on board for trade spurring new material cultures before Europeans arrived

There may even be chance one or a few survived and weren't outright killed or made into a slave.

There is connection to Ainu and PNW design as well.

>he actually fell for the solutrean meme
lol

>how to telegraph the fact that you've been completely btfo

>So are you going to carve Canada into hundreds of tribes or are you going to force the natives to submit to your Federal parliamentary representative democracy under a constitutional monarchy?

Canada is already carved into hundreds of tribes, which are recognized by the Canadian government by legally ratified treaties. It wouldn't be a big deal to give those tribes the right to elect an MLA, and reserve a seat in parliament for them.

Going off wikipedia, it looks like there's about ten tribal councils in British Columbia. Giving each of them the right to elect an MLA to represent them in Parliament isn't going to break our democracy. It does give them some basic respect the ability to fight for their interests as a political bloc, as well as legitimizes our own Canadian government as a continuation of the various governmental and social organizations that existed before British colonialism. This seems like a win-win to me.

>a solutrean believer thinks he blew anyone out
>when his own link to a wikipedia page shows how garbage his argument is
lol

No.

You're de-legitimizing representive democracy in favor of tribalism hierarchy.

You can't just do that shit. You have to have one form of government, not some kind of wacky apartheid of one way for them and on for us but we're all equal.

Statesmanship isn't your thing, clearly. Stick to cedar hats.

Slaves could actually end up becoming influential actors within the tribe, and their children would be born within the tribe as free men. See . If any Japanese sailors did survive (extremely likely), it's not at all unbelievable that they could end up having some limited influence on the groups that they came across.

>reserve a seat

So they immediately get through the electoral process because they're First Nations. Get fucked, this is Canada, we have a system and they can play by the same rules as everyone else.

>he thinks typing "wrong" is BTFOing anyone but his own sexual partner status

learn how to argue user desu, and maybe people will try to take you seriously. or just le epik 2017 troll. your choice.

>If any Japanese sailors did survive (extremely likely)
>(extremely likely)
>(just making shit up lol)

Stop pretending your fantasies are not fantasies

>wrong
No, there really isn't.
>what other similarities are you looking for? Should they be more sincere?
Again, if you know anything about lithic analysis, Stanford's points look really silly. His main argument is that both cultures produced leaf-shaped bifaces. That's pretty meaningless, because almost every culture on the planet has made tools that look like that (even early Acheulean tools follow that same basic shape). It's a really easy way to make a bifacial tool. And claiming similarities between both tool types ends up overlooking some major differences, like the fluting on Clovis points that ends up defining American lithic technology during the Paleoindian period.

So yeah, it's an incredibly superficial similarity, and drawing such bold conclusions from a really common trait is a huge leap in logic.

>lol source
Did you read that whole section? Most of it is arguing about how genetic evidence doesn't show a Solutrean connection. Most notably, genetic tests of remains associated with Clovis artifacts show connections to Siberian populations.

>people settling the Americas by boat traveling the coastlines BEFORE the waves of immigration from Siberia
There's a big difference between accepting evidence that people used boats to engage in trips we already know are possible (because of Inuit hunters), and from a location we know they came from, just earlier, and arguing for a major paradigm shift in how the Americas were settled based on nothing.

>solutrean truther
kys simpleton

WE WUZ NA GGUUUYYYSS

GOTTTA BELIEVE ME KIKE/GAIJIN WE WUUUUUZZS

WE CAHOHKIA NAO MO FOGGIN PYRAMINDS N SHHHHEEIITTTTT

>mfw mormons tried this argument 150 years ago and everyone laughed at them then

society truly has decayed

Calm.Down

I worded it stupidly, but I actually care about your people's struggles because I live in an area where the damage colonialism caused is very clear. Can we just put my autistic use of the word awesome aside and go back to this threads original topic?

>there is no evidence
>no look
>LEARN HOW TO ARGUE DESU DESU

Counting different first nations groups as their own electoral districts isn't going to destroy or invalidate Canadian democracy you tard. The city of Victoria has something like six fucking districts alone, why not give a federally recognized NATION with a similar population a foot at the table?

>cuntpasting wikipedia links (that have rebuttals to my own points) is an argument by my standards
>wonders why everyone else disregards him

>solutrean truther
who are you quoting

WE WUZ JAPANESE FISHERMEN N' SHEEIIT

When your people stop doing this kind of shit we can be friends again.

Fucking.... white people!

Because Canada isn't an Empire with different governing systems in place ya schmuck.

You want to put them with their seat at the fukken table?

Great I say, fine. Make them Canadian citizens and tax them.

Then they get equal votes. Until then frig off Randy.

...

> MFW I'm OP
m.youtube.com/watch?v=jVjgY427qW8

>Because Canada isn't an Empire

Technically you could make a strong case that we are. We've got multiple nations united under the banner of a single King or Queen. Just because we consider ourselves a dominion (of a defunct empire), doesn't mean that we aren't one step away from being an Empire ourselves.

The >Holy >Canadian >Empire. Has a nice ring to it, don't you think?

Holy cow mobiles having a seizure today

If you want natives to be able to vote in Canda make them citizens.

You have a decent system. Use it.

They can vote dumbass.

>Stanford's points

His particular position is not the end all be all dogmatic and authoritatively overriding position you seem to think it is to people arguing for the the main thrust of the theory you know, which is the fact that movement was possible by boat between America and Europe 20,000 BC at the wane of the LGM.

>really easy way to make a bifacial tool

There is no "easy" way to make bifacial stone tools. I'll bet you'll never be able to make anything but mono-facial tools you anthropleb.

>the fluting on Clovis points that ends up defining American lithic technology during the Paleoindian period

I was under the impression that the Clovis culture died out more than 10,000 years ago

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clovis_culture#Disappearance_of_Clovis.

>connections to Siberian populations

No shit. Funnily enough, those ancient Siberian populations were somehow unrelated to modern East-Asians, rather being more closely related to Europeans.

I also think it's funny how archeologists take finding a SINGLE body next to some stone points as an immediate refutation of the entire hypothesis. No legitimate scientists have such a low standard.

>greentexts

Lol then what problem are you trying to solve?

Russians had a very different understanding of race and conquest than English descended people did. So while the English generally segregated or tried to wipe out Native Americans, the Russians often intermarried with them and tried to incorporate them into the colonial society. The Russian efforts to do this via Orthodox Christianity were particularly effective.

This went all the way back to conquest of Siberia and the Russian Far East, where even today you can still see a lot of mix blooded people and a large incorporation of natives into Russian live. They simply applied the same principles to the colonization of Alaska. The whole situation is frankly very similar to how the French treated Native Americans in Quebec and upper Canada

...

he's talking in the main character of the catcher in the rye

>cedar hats are the national headgear?

Would this really be a bad thing though? That would be aesthetic as fuck.

>people un-ironically defending solutrean hypothesis as the first peopling of north america

what is the Mt. Verde site in Chile

I grew up in W WA and had native studies in elementary school. I remember some mention that once or twice a year (Spring/Autumn) the Chehalis tribe would walk over White Pass and trade / intermarry with the Yakima tribe. Two very different ecosystems. Shells from the coast, huckleberries from the eastern slopes of the mountains.

>I actually care about your people's struggles

Now, now lets hold off a bit. Until he provides proof, I'm assuming he isn't first nation and is just a troll.

Chinook Jargon was a lingua franca widely used on the Northwest Coast by American traders (“Boston men”), British traders ("King George men"), laborers, miners, fishermen, loggers, and many Indian tribes. Borrowings into Tlingit from English and Chinook Jargon occurred contemporaneously until the early 20th century. Native English speakers would have some command of Chinook Jargon when immigrating from other places in the Northwest, and as a consequence would tend towards using it rather than English with monolingual Tlingit speakers. Oral history confirms that many Tlingit speakers in the late 19th and early 20th century were also fluent in Chinook Jargon, some even with native proficiency.

Because the two languages coexisted, it is often difficult to tell whether a particular borrowing is taken directly from English into Tlingit, or instead whether it was imported through the intermediary of Chinook Jargon. Chinook Jargon phonology is much closer to Tlingit phonology than is English, and as such a direct borrowing from English into Tlingit is likely to closely resemble a borrowing from English into Chinook Jargon. Thus, a number of Tlingit nouns which are commonly assumed to be of English origin are more likely indirect imports through Chinook Jargon. A prime example is dáana “money, dollar, silver”, which superficially is similar to its English counterpart, but in fact has a semantic range that resonates with the Chinook Jargon dala “money, dollar, silver coin”. This relationship can be clearly seen in the Tlingit compound wakhdáana “eye glasses” (lit. “eye silver”) which is cognate with the Chinook Jargon dala siyawes “eye glasses” (lit. “silver eye”).

This actually makes me seriously consider the idea of "nation building/" in contemporary North America. Say you live in Cascadia or California and consider it to be somewhat of a nation in its own right. That's all well and good but how do you go about this "nation building" with the first nations? The way I see it you are left with two equally terrible options.

1. Consider them to be a part of the "nation" and risk further cultural erosion and the probability that their heritage is dissolved by integration with the wider culture. Not to mention there is the "Why the hell should we ever consider ourselves to be the same nation as you assholes and lend fealty to a state that has been nothing but harmful to us" issue.

2. Consider them entities separate from whatever "nation" you are trying to build and risk further alienating them in a de-facto apartheid system. Also possibly leaving their culture to shrivel up as they slowly loose members and connections to the past, especially since most reservations are on shitty land and away from the areas o prosperity. It also sets a precedent for ignoring them and their issues.

I honestly wouldn't know how to deal with that issue. Doesn't help that they are such a low proportion of the population which severely hinder their influence and negotiating power.
On a side note. I think this conversation would be suited well for /int/ if you guys want to make another thread there. Don't know if it would be about regionalism or First Nations relations, but either would be good. If you want to keep it about the west coast/Cascadia then they should be getting off work soon so now would be a good time.

I think we're actually going about it in a pretty decent way, with the negotiation of treaties going down across British Columbia.

It's really a matter of basic respect. First Nations people should have the same land rights as everyone else, which means respecting treaties and land claims.

Personally I think the way forward is in grand gestures. Things like giving them the right to call in the military to protect their land claims, like I mentioned earlier, seems completely fair. So is giving them seats in our Parliament. There's no reason Victoria should have six ridings in the Parliament while groups that we legally recognize as sovereign nations don't have a single representative. All statesmanship requires some degree of courtship, so instead of, like you said, a de-facto apartheid system, the government would have to make an effort to actually reconcile with the different tribes and woo them over.

Culturally, I feel like chinook jargon as mentioned is a good precedent for how Cascadia could project soft geopolitical and cultural power and develop itself as a nation. Chinook developed as a way for lots of people from different languages to communicate with each other. Similarly every tribe has its own culture, which it would be rude to appropriate, but between the different tribes there's enough clear overlap to be called an overarching civilization in itself. A lot of things like totem poles, bigfoot, and potlucks have already completely entrenched themselves in the public (un)consciousness. A good nation building project would encourage these things.

Finally I'd like to some high speed train lines. If we could have one stretching from, say, Silicon Valley to the northern tip of Vancouver Island, that would naturally unite the different people along the coast, as well as further interweave our economy.

Unfortunately a huge minority of Canadians are racist dickheads who hate the idea of treaty other people with basic dignity and respect.