Why are countries afraid of their economies not growing...

essentially FUBAR

we're in too deep, to get out without heavy erm I don't want to say 'bloodshed', but that's what's mostly likely coming.

There's like 0.0% it'll happen, but what if some country started walling off from world and, additionally, tried partially help eco with eventual crash? I don't normally support it, but I don't know what else can be done (except for a risky "controlled" local crash).

Because countries don't pay back their debts at the same rate as they take on new debts.

So the debts are growing every year. To keep up with the interest payments and be able to take on new debt countries need growing tax revenue(loot).

It's a giant ponzi scheme and politics is all about "I hope this shit doesn't implode during my term"

yup, either some war/civil collapse or the government turning full commie mode. (guess why unconditional basic income gains so much momentum with statists).

>what is best korea
the fiat debt run world would make sure your walled off country would get fucked and liberated

Well, fuck. It's been nice to meet you all.

>Why are countries afraid of their economies not growing?

Because if the economy is not growing that means we can't pay back the debt and its interests.
What happens when you can't pay back the debt ? Well first the people to who you should pay back are gigantically fucked and you are fucked too because you must still give them what remain.
It creates a chain reaction where jobs and pensions are cut and a shitload of people are thrown into misery because the economy is paralyzed which leads to societal chaos.

If you want how we ended in this situation read about the Federal Reserve and the decisions that were taken after the war until the 70s, basically the Fed is a machine to throw people into debt slavery while the boomers had a lifetstyle they couldn't afford and paid it with the back of their children and grandchildren.

Just FYI a pump is happening here in a few hours:

t.me/interstellarpump

>why are people so afraid of losing money
gee i don't know you fucking retard OP

>Because if the economy is not growing that means we can't pay back the debt and its interests.
Why aren't countries striving towards zero debt?
Sure it would hurt for a while but then it's smooth sailing.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt
sort by % of GDP to get a meaningful figure
Positive examples would be: Iran, Liechtenstein and Greenland.

because democracy is a dumb system. voters would throw out those politicians who stop gibing free gibs to achieve 0 denbts.

>Why can't we have zero debt

Why can't we have no wars in the Middle East? Why can't we have black families who are aren't subsided to breed like rats? Why can't we have normal, stable families?

Because it doesn't benefit the elite nor the stupid socialist loving scum, and especially (((them)))

Germany used 1/3rd of the recent tax surplus to pay back debt and there wasn't any noticeable opposition

It's more than negative numbers and people getting sad and poor. In the event of a total collapse of the economy, a fuckload of people die. I'm not supporting bailouts, but in some situations they're necessary.

However I believe that our situation would be a lot better today if the government didn't bailout the big banks and the auto industry in 2008/09. Instead of bailing out corporations, pump money into aid for the people in trouble in the country, let the free market do it's job. Corporations close down, people lose their jobs, but in the long term it'll be better.

Now we're in a situation where these big banks and corporations know that no matter how bad they fuck up the economy, the government will give them a bailout.

Setting ourselves up to fail, and a lot harder this time. When? Who the fuck knows? But somewhere in the future is a breaking point. It'll start when the Canadian housing market bubble finally pops, and it's at its limits now.

> canada housing market

Just an fyi, America's economy will not fail by inside forces, but outside forces.

Great topic for discussion OP

Our economy is based on debt. Money loaned with the expectation that more money will be returned in the future. This requires endless growth. In an organism unregulated growth is called cancer.

In olden days wealth used to be income generating properties like agricultural land. The primary goal of societies was to develop the character and virtue of the citizen. Now our society worships mammon. I hope for a future in which we can return to a pseudo-agricultural past in which most people are landowners who own food or energy producing property.

>most people are landowners who own food or energy producing property.
The problem is we don't need many people to cover the demand for food and energy

its because were living in a jewed out economy, where everything is based around increasing CAPITAL and WORK (the real root of value and prosperity) has to take a second place. capital is constantly increasing through debt and usury.

since the capital is always increasing, the economy has to keep growing too, to reflect that ever-growing mass of money

thats why politicians are always going on about economic growth, even though resources are finite and thus economic growth is finite too.

read up on the NSDAPs economic manifesto. they flipped it around based the entire economy on work while capital had to take a second place. the result was that germany went from third world statuts to being the richest country in europe within THREE YEARS.

read up NSDAP economic manifesto
read up on Hitlers economic miracle
read up on Gottfried Feders works

realize were all getting fucked over and bled out by the jewish system.

in a real FREE economy, without a jewish ruling class constantly bleeding us dry, we would all be rich and wealthy

We do for energy. We could find essentially limitless applications for energy. The cheaper energy is, the more applications there are. Imagine living on a farm with an acre of solar panels, an acre of food, and a shop full of crypto mining equipment, servers, harddrives, generating income. That's my dream.

That's close to my dream as well.
One day I'll buy an old farm with high-speed Internet, a few animals, etc

Germany controls all other Euro countries by protecting German industries in the name of "European superpower and balance"
ie another Euro member country cannot compete against Germany in German-approved industries such as auto industry, advanced tech etc.
they have constant superavits because it's literally impossible to be in debt when you're Germany right now

absolute nonsense
read up on TARGET2 credits

germany basically gave away almost a TRILLION euros worth of goods to bankrupt countries in southern europe. they will never pay back those loans.

how exactly is that protecting the german industry?

>giving away billions in goods
>not destroying local industries a la food subsidies to Africa

Yeah, but the more we put off the collapse, the worse it will be. We're living in a borrowed time.
Land isn't as important as it once was, and I don't like the regressing part.
I don't like nazis much but yeah, economy around work would be much, much healthier. Work can't inflate, it's a real resource. Money, on the other hand...
Germany basically leeches off other countries... Who would've guessed.

I can't find any solid data - what happened in 2009 in Iceland? It's similar to this situation, except people refused to bail out banks.

LOL the local industries in southern europe were already in the shitter well before the target2 credits

and dont even get me started on africa. half of the continent would die out in a week if we didnt subsidize them

just go away with your "germany controls europe" tinfoil tier bullshit. EU controls germany and is bleeding them dry like every other member state.

what you never played total war? cant stagnate

You can't have 0 debt because debt is generated at the printing of the dollar, the US government "borrows" the money to the Fed (so they owe them interests) then throws it into circulation.

However sure you can reduce the public debt but it would ask for drastic cuts in funding which would as surely provoke civil unrest:
>cut in the federal pensions
Well get ready to have a lot of poor old people in the streets and families protesting.
>cut in the military spendings
Get ready for a shitload of workers from the industry in the streets + problem on the global stage
>cut in the welfare
black_neighboorhood_in_flames.jpg

Also as said before politics don't want to do that because that's extremely unpopular policies but it doesn't change the fact that on the long term it will choke us and one generation will be sacrified.

The other alternative is to get the money where it is (big companies and the richest) by taxing but:
1) it's extremely difficult because those people are almost always smarter than the government which make their wealth hard to grab
2) they have a really powerful influence over the public (they own the MSM) and close ties to politics
3) it can provoke the exact same problem as mentionned with cutting public spendings, in short your companies become less competitive, fire truckloads of employees simultaneously and there is no jobs for them, now you have massive increase of poverty
4) they can always move a large part of their wealth to another country with a more competitive fiscal environnement making it a dry loss for the gov

Germany made the painful reforms in the 00s, they had a shitton of cheap workers after the reunification and finally the EU is a captive market for their industry (funnily close to a colonial system today).
At the end of the day sure german have sane finance but it's at the expense of the rest of Europe industry and their lower class (basically they have among the highest amount of poor workers in Europe)

Faults of democracy. Something similar happened in XVI century (and on) Poland, the nobility became so privileged king couldn't do anything and reforms were impossible to do. And it was voting system too.
Another option is to somehow reduce wealthiest people's capital and bring more importance to work. Still improbable, sadly.

How about we just look for the magical 10 Trillion that disappeared from the Pentagon's budget?

They didn't "gave them", the EU provided subsidies and with this money guess who got the contracts ?
I don't blame the germans though, their industry is the best structured in the world (big holdings allowing to make economies of scale which at the same time are possessed by families giving them stability, long term vision, a certain dose of patriotism and protect them from corporate raiders).

The lie though is to make people believe that everyone can have the "german model" in Europe, if everyone do the same on the continent then it wouldn't work as well anymore for Germany, it's a zero sum game.

I like this thread. You guys are all great. Great discussion. Good arguments.

who do you think is gonna pay once these countries default on their loans that they can never pay back?

the german tax payer

germany is the biggest net contributor in europe by far. it also has the second highest tax rate in the world.

real spending power and living standards of the average german have been declining or stagnant for decades. its the same elites who run the EU that benefit from this scam. the average german is getting bled dry.

if you think its "Lol german controls the EU now" you are completely off base. its the EU parliament, commission and ECB that are calling the shots... and germany is underrepresented in all of them even though they pay the most money of all member states.

True, but it's even far older than that, in archaic Athens the aristocracy accumulated so many land over the centuries that it either threw the average peasant into serfdom of in the cities.

That led to the creation of the tyranny with Peisistratos who raised to power by popular support and confiscated many of the assets and lands of the aristocrats to either redistribute them to the people or to modernize the economy and make it pivot toward industry and trade giving birth to the middle class that would make the supremacy of Athens during the next century.

I still think that capitalism is the best method of growth and to uplift people from poverty but every once in a while economies need a reset and I share your opinion that you can't do it democratically, there is just too much inertia.

>That led to the creation of the tyranny with Peisistratos who raised to power by popular support and confiscated many of the assets and lands of the aristocrats to either redistribute them to the people or to modernize the economy and make it pivot toward industry and trade giving birth to the middle class that would make the supremacy of Athens during the next century.
History will repeat. People who have been trampled on for so long will just not give a fuck anymore.
"people no longer care about their civil liberties, they care about their standard of life. the modern world has outgrown notions like freedom. they're content to follow."

I used Poland as an example because it's familiar to me. It's also interesting to see that it's not the first time and that autocracy is possible way to solve this.
I don't think there's intertia, it's just the fact that if you're elected democratically, you're there for a time. People won't let you finish what you started and will elect some populist...

because it all depends on an ever-increasing number of suckers