Other than denial and accusations of racism, how do muscucks deal with the fact that Muhammed could not have been from Arabia based on historic evidence? Some major points to consider:
1. The koran describes the landscape were Muhammed preached as one where wheat, grapes, olives, and date palms are grown. Olives couldn't have been grown in Mecca, and the combination of wheat, grapes, and olives strongly suggests that it must have been somewhere more mediterranean, but southerly enough for dates to be grown. Certainly it can't be describing Arabia.
2. The koran, more than once, describes the people it is being recited to as living within site of a vanished nation that was destroyed by god. It also references that the place has the ruins of Lot's people, which means it is Sodom and Gomorrah, which places the region of the koran's composition and events near the dead sea, also not Arabia.
3. Inner Arabia was virgin territory where there were virtually no jews or christians, but the koran addresses jews and christians (as well as 'polytheists') and sees them as a significant people in that region of the world. In addition, the claim that there was trade contact (as was later claimed) with such people still does not satisfactorily explain how everyone, even the polytheists, seem to be deeply familiar with those faiths. The preaching having occurred outside Arabia neatly explains it.
Based on this evidence, the words of the man himself, it's likely that Muhammed was born and preached in perhaps Palestine or Syria, not Arabia. That means that the stories about Muhammed, all of which were written after his death, are mostly false and that the koran itself was likely a text that evolved over time, perhaps being written by several different people and likely not even in Arabic (e.g. some of the sources would certainly have been written in Syriac). Obviously, this seriously undermines the claim that the koran is the perfect and unchanging word of god.
I'm specifically talking about the region that was allegedly the historical location of Muhammed (i.e. Mecca and Medina in Central West Arabia), not South Arabia, but fair point.
I still see no evidence of Jews and Christians there beyond trade contact, no evidence of the agriculture described there, and no explanation of the reference to Lot's wife.
Benjamin Morris
>how do muscucks deal with facts by killing people like you, inshallah
William Edwards
There were major Jewish families in the Hejaz. Your post is shit.
Ian Sanchez
>Olives couldn't have been grown in Mecca, and the combination of wheat, grapes, and olives strongly suggests that it must have been somewhere more mediterranean, but southerly enough for dates to be grown. Certainly it can't be describing Arabia. Olives have a lot of symbolic meaning. The Koran is in Abrahamic tradition and thus uses the same symbolism. >The koran, more than once, describes the people it is being recited to as living within site of a vanished nation that was destroyed by god. It also references that the place has the ruins of Lot's people, which means it is Sodom and Gomorrah, which places the region of the koran's composition and events near the dead sea, also not Arabia. There were several kingdoms in Arabia that left ruins at that time, the reference to Lot is to continue the line of the Tora and not archeological evidence >Inner Arabia was virgin territory where there were virtually no jews or christians, but the koran addresses jews and christians (as well as 'polytheists') and sees them as a significant people in that region of the world. Jews were everywhere in the ME since the babylonian exile and jewish tradition goes back before BC even in inner Arabia.
Ryan Ortiz
Ok well let's scratch point 3 since I'm reading conflicting information and don't have enough knowledge either way.
Point 1 and 2 are still important.
>it was a metaphor doubt
Henry Bailey
Please tell me the suras and I tell you why it isn't meant literally
Nathan Phillips
I'm not Muslim but this argument is tired and disproven and has no acceptance even from islamic critics.
>1. The koran describes the landscape were Muhammed preached as one where wheat, grapes, olives, and date palms are grown. Olives couldn't have been grown in Mecca, and the combination of wheat, grapes, and olives strongly suggests that it must have been somewhere more mediterranean, but southerly enough for dates to be grown. Certainly it can't be describing Arabia. You don't need to a geography degree to realise that Arabia isn't entirely one sandy desert, much of the western coast, the Hejaz, where Mecca is, is quite fertile, Dates Olives and other such crops are still big exports today, and in the past it was more fertile, also how the fuck do you think they even survived if they couldn't farm, as sedentary city Arabs?
>2. The koran, more than once, describes the people it is being recited to as living within site of a vanished nation that was destroyed by god. It also references that the place has the ruins of Lot's people, which means it is Sodom and Gomorrah, which places the region of the koran's composition and events near the dead sea, also not Arabia. You have no knowledge of Arabia. Arabia used to be full of hundreds of cities and civilisations, some lasted for 1000 years like Saba, these ruins still dot Arabia but limited archaeology hides this. However, and probably due to the collapse of the Western Roman Empire and conversion to Christianity, around the 4th and 5th Centuries AD, most of these cities because desolate and depopulated, which meant by Muhammeds time, Arabia seemed like Detroit. There is also evidence of a meteor or two wiping out some conurbations.
Lucas Bailey
As an aside the pre-Medina Mohammad was practically Christ.
>religion of peace >tolerate all religions >didn't kill anyone >don't force anyone into Islam
It was upon attaining governorship of Medina that he slowly went full REEEEEEEEE
I think that if Christ had lived he would have gone full REEEEEEEEEE eventually as well.
Ryan Adams
>3. Inner Arabia was virgin territory where there were virtually no jews or christians, but the koran addresses jews and christians (as well as 'polytheists') and sees them as a significant people in that region of the world. In addition, the claim that there was trade contact (as was later claimed) with such people still does not satisfactorily explain how everyone, even the polytheists, seem to be deeply familiar with those faiths. The preaching having occurred outside Arabia neatly explains it. Actually Arabia was jam packed with Jews and Christians, there was entire Jewish cities like Yathrib (Medina) and Christians were all over Arabia such as the Tanukhids or Ghassanids tribes who were Christian. This time in Arabia was a time when Arabia was full of different religions and religious conversation happened a lot, why else would Islam appear?
In short your argument is hilariously weak.
Luis Mitchell
>practically Christ >tolerate all religions user, I...
Hudson Rivera
>there is no wheat, grapes, olives or dates in Arabia >Arabia is just one big desert
Stopped reading, not even an Arab but you try to make a geographic argument without even knowing the geography of Hejaz.
Colton Lee
> Olives are still big exports today, With modern farming equipment, not in ancient time
Andrew Hall
>With modern farming equipment, not in ancient time ??? Do you know how olives are farmed differently today to the past? They get a machine to shake the tree, instead of people. Olive farming can't be made any more industrial. Also your argument proves jack shit in regards to farming in the past, especially since they probably just got muscled slaves to shake it
Juan Anderson
OP got BTFO
Kevin Cruz
>no rivers or lakes >sparse rainfall at irregular intervals >no grassland >literally classified as a hot desert climate (bWh - the hottest Köppen climate type) >nomadic culture supplemented by a couple of trade centers
Yes, I'm sure it had extensive agriculture, fields of wheat and fruit as far as the eye could see, and advanced civilisations everywhere.
So if there were jews and christians everywhere doesn't that make it significantly less likely that they would misidentify the city associated with Lot? They would know it was north.
Samuel Evans
1. I already said modern Arabia is drier, just like the Sahara. 2. Isolated photographs don't prove anything, western America is a desert but historically people could still farm, there are things called rivers and oasis's and coastlines where moisture is much heavier.
>So if there were jews and christians everywhere doesn't that make it significantly less likely that they would misidentify the city associated with Lot? They would know it was north. They could associate any destroyed city with Lot. It supposedly happened over a thousand years before Islam
Connor Morgan
>Yes, I'm sure it had extensive agriculture, fields of wheat and fruit as far as the eye could see, and advanced civilisations everywhere.
Do you not know what desertification is? 2000 years ago what is now Tunisia was one of the most fertile agricultural lands in the world.
Nathan Nelson
>hejaz 2000 years ago is the same as it is now
Henry Fisher
Hejaz
See, they can grow trees in Arabia, and guess what olives and dates grow on?
Nathaniel Evans
Mountains in Hejaz near Medina
Thomas Perez
More Hejaz mountains
William Miller
>it was totally different guys Why even practice pastoral nomadism then? Why do Roman and Greek sources call it a desert and say the inhabitants lived on milk and the flesh of animals?
Nice google image searching, but those are the Al Faifa Mountains in Jizan, in South Saudi Arabia. They are nowhere near Hejaz. This is what the "lush" landscape there actually looks like.
Matthew Evans
...
Michael Barnes
That image is from Tabuk (North Arabia).
That actually shows an inhospitable desert environment (with perhaps a well or oasis).
Mason Kelly
>Why even practice pastoral nomadism then? Because most of Arabia still wasn't suitable for farming, but where it was, we got cities, which is what Islam talks about, cities, like Mecca, Medina, etc. >Why do Roman and Greek sources call it a desert and say the inhabitants lived on milk and the flesh of animals? Ancient sources are all massive generalisations, at the same time they talk about the large trade in dates.
No those images are Hejaz, it's a varied province, some of it is lush, some of it is not.
Hunter Collins
No, only the first image you posted is Hejaz.
>varied province Even if it is look at the picture of Mecca.
Luis Gray
You're straight up lying, those images are the Hejaz, reverse search them fool.
Grayson Jenkins
You noodle heads never heard of Taif? It's a city right next to Maccah, maybe a day's worth of travelling on foot. It's ontop of a mountain and is one of the main sources of fruits of all kinds in Arabia.
Jace Reed
forgot pic
Connor Adams
damn arabia looks like THAT?
Cooper Baker
>reverse search them fool >things on the internet are true
They don't show shit and are identified as different areas depending on whoever reblogs them. Useless images. The second one is actually used on a blog to demonstrate the lack of water in Hejaz.
It's 100km south of Mecca.
Look I think we're getting off track here. Maybe saying all of Arabia was impossible, but you guys need to show Mecca and Medina as being places for this agriculture. The whole point is it can't have been Mecca or Medina and the traditional narrative needs it to be those places.
And any proposed location still has to contend with the identification of a city destroyed by god and identified with Lot (which the people being preached to by Muhammed are said to pass by daily).
Asher Brown
>taking revisionist school seriously
Leo Russell
jazan is in southern hejaz, on the border with yemen. the coast of hejaz is fertile for agriculture. you can not refute this
Juan Brooks
Naw. It was part of the Kingdom named of the region but it's not part of the region itself.
Nicholas Jones
Arabia is a big, varied place. The modern revisionist school might have a point about Mecca being the actual Mecca of Muhammad's time, and he may have preached somewhere to the north (which would still be Arabia Felix in Roman times) before going south to Medina, but the rest is more or less solid.
Aaron Russell
[The Quran 43:36] Anyone who disregards the message of the Most Gracious, we appoint a devil to be his constant companion.
Nathaniel Bennett
No human being whom God gave the Scripture, authority and Prophethood is then to say to the people, "Worship me rather than God." But instead, "Devote yourselves to your Lord according to the Scripture you have been teaching and to what you have been studying."
Nor would he command you to take the angels and the Prophets as lords. Would he command you to disbelieve after becoming Muslims? 3:79-80
Grayson Young
>tolerate all religions
The Sikhs, Hindus and other pagans got treated perfectly fine right?
Blake Watson
>The koran describes... you need better sources m8
Juan Flores
>Born approximately 570 CE (Year of the Elephant) in the Arabian city of Mecca, Muhammad was orphaned at an early age; he was raised under the care of his paternal uncle Abu Talib. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad
Jace Rivera
Haha Sikhism was directly formed in response to Muslims BTFO the Hindus.
Sihks came about to defend against the Muslim imperialism.
In fact every Sink today carries with them a ceremonial Muslim killing knife.
Kevin Martinez
where can I buy a brown dress like that?
William Hall
>In his teens, Muhammad accompanied his uncle on Syrian trading journeys to gain experience in commercial trade.[59] Islamic tradition states that when Muhammad was either nine or twelve while accompanying the Meccans' caravan to Syria, he met a Christian monk or hermit named Bahira who is said to have foreseen Muhammad's career as a prophet of God.[60] en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad
Liam Anderson
OP here. I personally expressed skepticism to Arabia but the revisionist school is only skeptical of Mecca/Medina.
I think I may have overreached with that and should have stuck to Mecca/Medina as well. My reasons were the issue of the city related to Lot which I (still) haven't found any reasonable explanation for other than the traditional location near the dead sea. This point still bugs me.
I also don't buy into >it was a metaphor
>according to texts written decades after his death.
>brown
She's wearing wearing Quay Kitti Coffee Sunglasses, Jennifer Meyer Triangle Stud Earrings, Cartier Love Wedding Band, Max Mara Whitney Small Leather Tote and Faithfull the Brand August Dress in Haute Boheme Print. Duh.
>The first mention of Jews in the area of what is today Saudi Arabia dates back, by some accounts, to the time of the First Temple. By the 6th and 7th centuries there was a considerable Jewish population in Hejaz, mostly in and around Medina (or Yathrib as it called by the time), Khaybar, and Tayma.
>There were three main Jewish tribes in Medina, forming the most important Hejazi community before the rise of Islam in Arabia. These were the Banu Nadir, the Banu Qainuqa and the Banu Qurayza.
Ethan Gray
>Haute Boheme Print Right, brown.
Asher Morgan
This has to be one of the most silliest threads on here.
The Qu'uran is in what language? Arabic. Meaning that the revelation was in direct contact with the Arabs. Arabs live where? Arabia.
Quran mentions Muhammad only a handful of times, I don't recall at all where it mentions descriptions of where he lived. Olives, wheat, etc are probably mentioned in The Calf Chapter which is about Moses, the Israelites and the Egyptians.
The Quran mentions many Prophets, so of course it mentions different landscapes of where they lived.
It doesn't sound that you've even read Muhammads biography. 99.99% of all characters and environment deals with Arabians and Arabia.
I could go on and on, but it's clear that you're formulating an opinion based on real feeble readings you've been doing. First time you read the Quran?
Jayden Richardson
>mfw OP conflates Ubar/Iram of the Pillars with Sodom and Gomorrah and sperges this thread out as a result
You know more than one place can get rekt by God, right? He flooded the whole Earth!
Angel White
> show Mecca and Medina as being places for this agriculture.
Mecca was never an 'agricultural' place, as the quran has stated quoting Abraham. >Our Lord, I have settled some of my descendants in an uncultivated valley near Your sacred House, our Lord, that they may establish prayer. So make hearts among the people incline toward them and provide for them from the fruits that they might be grateful.
On the other hand, Medina's fame was in Palm farming to the point where they fed their camels dates.
Jaxson Lewis
Lot is just a legendary place by that point, and rather than metaphor the Quran is merely referring to a local legend at the time that believed some nearby ruins to have been the Lot of legend.
