How do traditional family values diminishing in the West?

The movement from a industrial based economy to a service based economy.

...

All because of capitalism. Ways of life corresponding to earlier modes of production are no longer as necessary, so they falter. The ongoing transition from industrial capitalism to a precarian service economy has disrupted many traditional practices, including a stable home life and the importance of the nuclear family.

The sexual revolution was a false start. While the birth control pill and changing sexual attitudes led to a lot of rampant fucking in the 1960s and '70s, the decline in family creation and birthrates in the West mostly took off after the '80s and '90s. Young people aren't rich enough to buy a house and have lots of kids.

How do coherent sentences work?

Lol. It was the push by socialist to deconstruct the family and church and replace it with the school and state.

I was going to post this.

your one ugly looking mofo

Well I think this is an interesting question. But I think there is a related question. How old are traditional values of family that we know them now. I imagine that the middle age presents were much more tribal in their mind set with more.extended family networks.

The traditional nuclear family model is a much a product of the modern world as it's current destruction. I find cultural changes facinating.

The extended family is probably thousands of years old tbqh.

The nuclear family with husband, wife and kids was pretty much an Anglo invention.

It might be Anglo but only because that is were industrialization began. I mean extended family networks is most likely the "natural" state of man.

>the 1950's
>traditional family values

Wew lad nice corporate propoganda. Capitalism a shit, communism a shit, but capitalism especially a shit

Birth control pill

Yeah, but it's not a coincidence that Angloville is where industrialization occurred.

Communism is lit. Marxist Leninist states are shit because they just provide social democratic benefits without the democracy.

Communism means a society where there's no market or private control of industry. Economy would be based on need rather than greed. Over time, the state would also wither away because it would no longer need to protect capital.

>Communism is lit
>lit
Underage begone.

>Economy would be based on need rather than greed.
I'm eagerly awaiting your detailed economic plan on how such a controlled economy would allocate its resources.

>Over time, the state would also wither away because it would no longer need to protect capital.
Sure it will. Lmao.

>communism is lit

Fucking an hero communism is capitalism with a utopian ideal it will never achieve, also wait until your balls drop until you post here

Correct, as is clear by the fact that left-wingers are renowned for their strong traditional values in support of gender roles and the importance of family!

Is it opposite day today, or are we just being raided by leftycuck virgins?

>being anti bourgeoisie
>inherently a leftist

Why are capitalists and communists 2 sides of the same newfag coin?

Indeed, if you are anti-"bourgeois", which basically means you are anti-freedom, you are a filthy leftist sheep.

Nazis were socialists.

>nazis were socialists

They literally shot all the socialists in their party and accused anyone of slightly marxist leanings of being a Bolshevik and shot them. Being pro-bourgeoisie makes you a leftist you good goy faggot.

>hurr I'm free to die at age 50 of liver cancer and diabetes
>hurr more wars for Israel we must protect democracy XDDD

>They literally shot all the socialists in their party and accused anyone of slightly marxist leanings of being a Bolshevik and shot them.
Because the socialists and communists were the opposition party and were vying for the same voter base as the Nazi party. What's next, Stalin was a bourgeois because he purged his communist enemies?

>Being pro-bourgeoisie makes you a leftist
How in the world does that make me a leftist.

Go cash your welfare check, Jamal, and leave me alone.

Nazi ideology was socialist.

liberals are pro bourgeoisie, communists are pro proletariat, conservatives are pro aristocracy.

>>>/leftypol/

Is this what they teach the kids at school these days?

I dunno what's more depressing the fact that children are fed this horse shot, or the fact Veeky Forums has no decent mods.

I wouldn't say Capitalism itself, but rather materialism.

It deteriorates the very way that men think. The consumer culture of a heavily capitalistic society drives people to want the next best thing. This is what Alexis de Tocqueville calls "the joyless quest for joy". Such a quest has no joy since these companies come up with new stuff everyday. This runaway materialism is dangerous since it leads to the centralization of power. People become so occupied with work, devoting a lot of their mental energy, in order to get that next best thing. As they become more and more fixated, they relegate things that they otherwise would have done themselves like political participation, taking care of family, and the striving for knowledge to the government to handle for them so that they can use the mental energy, otherwise being used for a fulfilling life, to getting that "next best thing".

Truly joyless.

>Because the socialists and communists were the opposition party and were vying for the same voter base as the Nazi party.

We're reaching levels of retardation that shouldn't be possible!

>Stalin was Bourgeoise

no he was muh proletariat

>how does this make me a leftist

holy fuck how new can you be?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment

Did you just not pay attention in history class?

>go cash your welfare check
>people not working in a communist system

If you didn't work you were sent to a gulag or shot. People being forced to work didn't tend to work as hard as Marxist Leninists thought, but there is no welfare system in communism you have no choice but to work.

>based de Tocqueville
>materialism a shit as a whole

This

>
>>They literally shot all the socialists in their party and accused anyone of slightly marxist leanings of being a Bolshevik and shot them.
>Because the socialists and communists were the opposition party and were vying for the same voter base as the Nazi party. What's next, Stalin was a bourgeois because he purged his communist enemies?
Not him, but what? The Night of Long Knives, Röhm, the Strasser brothers, that's all news to you?

>We're reaching levels of retardation that shouldn't be possible!
Are you implying that the voter base of the Nazi party was not the same as the socialist/communist parties, mainly disaffected working class people suffering under Weimar's economic troubles?

At this point you're just engaging in historical denial.

>holy fuck how new can you be?
>Did you just not pay attention in history class?
I was using the term "leftist" in the 20th century sense, not the fucking 18th century sense. I guess Oogabooga the caveman was a leftist because he left the cave to start planting crops, and we are all leftists for practicing agriculture.

>If you didn't work you were sent to a gulag or shot. People being forced to work didn't tend to work as hard as Marxist Leninists thought, but there is no welfare system in communism you have no choice but to work.
I can't tell the point of this remark. Is this supposed to make your ideology attractive? Sounds shitty to me.

Makes me guffaw that the critics of capitalism blame its materialistic tendencies when their entire leftist ideology is founded upon materialism as being the basic truth in the universe.

What's your point? Hitler killed people left and right, yes, which is exactly my point. His persecution of socialists doesn't refute the fact that Nazism was fundamentally a socialist ideology.

Fucking retard.

>Are you implying that the voter base of the Nazi party was not the same as the socialist/communist parties,

no you fucking idiot, the national socialists ran against the socialist and communist parties on the platform of being pro-worker but anti-marxist.

>everything that isn't capitalism or communism is just stupid

Libertarians are probably more retarded than their leftist foils.

>he's accusing me of being a communist
>anything that isn't libertarianism or neoliberalism or classical liberalism is communism

Hang yourself

Im not a communist

>hitler killed people left and right
>therefore he's a socialist

Its called collectivism at least get your own criticisms of non-capitalistic idealogies right holy shit.

>no you fucking idiot, the national socialists ran against the socialist and communist parties on the platform of being pro-worker but anti-marxist.
Lel what?

>No you fucking idiots Nazis weren't competing for the worker voting base with the socialists!
>They ran a pro-worker platform to win over the worker voting base
Kill yourself, or at least castrate yourself, so as to not propagate your defective genes.

>everything that isn't capitalism or communism is just stupid
At this point you're just greentexting things I didn't even say. I'm going to assume you have a schizoid personality disorder and are conversing with yourself.

>Libertarians are probably more retarded than their leftist foils.
Yeah, you're the smart one here!

The critics of capitalism blame its materialistic tendencies, yes, but also don't forget that they conveniently forget that such runaway materialism I described in could be easily remedied with active participation in politics, group assembly of any kind, and even just taking a day off to relax.

It's no wonder leftists despise religion and democracy. These are the remedies to the ailments of capitalism.

Stop arguing about Nazis. They were socialists in the same way Denmark or Norway are socialists, e.g very little.

They were essentially racist social-democrats.

>>hitler killed people left and right
>>therefore he's a socialist
Again greentexting things I never said.

You seem to suffering from memory problems, so I'll walk you through the logic of our argument, with the hope that you realize your mistake (although I don't have high hopes for that).

Me : National socialism was a socialist ideology
You : No, because they killed socialists
Me : Hitler killed his political enemies (socialist and non socialist alike), it remains that Nazi ideology is socialist as can be illustrated by the fact that the Nazi party were competing with the socialists for the worker vote
You: *autistic screeching* *poops his pants*

>lel what

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Germany

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Democratic_Party_of_Germany

>kill yourself

i would but i don't want the gene pool to be full of defective aspies such as yourself?

>he still thinks I'm a communist

ffs

>anyone who isn't pro bourgeoisie hate religion

The argument that capitalism destroyed the nuclear family is not usually one made from the Left, the Left itself didn't really care for the nuclear family in any case. It's usually an argument from authoritarian traditionalists, and it's not exactly wrong either.

Unbridled capitalism exploits as much as it can, and women as a potential source of cheap labour and extra manpower was just too good of an opportunity to pass. You can now exploit twice the people for half the price, and have them spend considerably more. It's a dream come true if capital is the only thing you look out for.

ITS CALLED COLLECTIVISM YOU FUCKING IDIOT

Socialism is a form of collectivism, the terms are not synonymous you moron

>It's usually an argument from authoritarian traditionalists, and it's not exactly wrong either.

This

Alright, let me be more specific, Marx hated religion.

He hated it for the reason that it made workers turn toward the heavens and look forward to an afterlife of peace rather than look at their conditions in the here and now and join the Communist revolution.

He really goes into this in his work On the Jewish Question if you're interested.

>What's your point?
That Hitler purged all of the socialists in the Nazi party as was originally stated. Context clues are an umportant part of reading comprehension.

>The argument that capitalism destroyed the nuclear family is not usually one made from the Left
Marx predicted it would. He just didn't care.

Traditionalist are more pro-religion than capitalist will ever be, and they are anti-bourgeoisie as fuck.

>when you grow up in a groupthink environment where its inherently athiestic communism vs christian capitalism

there was also islamic communism/socialism as well.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_socialism

But you're right about Marx, then again modern communists being Pro-gay would piss off Engels.

I've never heard a decent explanation for when I ask leftists to explain why traditional values and morality reached their apogee in the "hyper-capitalist" Victorian era.

>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Germany
>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Democratic_Party_of_Germany
And? Are you hoping that posting wikipedia links to unrelated articles is somehow an argument?

>ffs
Above all, I think your IQ is in the low 70s.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "Left". If you mean American progressives, then sure. But those new "traditional authoritarians" are, economically speaking, leftists, in that they seek a greater degree of control over the economy from government.

You don't even know the difference between collectivism and socialism, you're probably under 18 because its obvious you've haven't been here for long and need to lurkmoar

>That Hitler purged all of the socialists in the Nazi party as was originally stated
So I guess Stalin was also anti-socialist too then. You learn something new every day.

It's true that I don't often browse Veeky Forums, since I mostly browse /pol/.

I'm also probably twice your age.

You seem to think that socialism = gay rights, and since Hitler killed socialists, this means he wasn't a socialist!! You have the reasoning capabilities of a ghetto nigger high on crack.

Socialism is an economic ideology, not a social ideology, you fucking idiotic nigger. I thought that you would have made the rapprochement between national SOCIALISM and socialism itself, but I guess your brain is too defective for even this simple pattern recognition.

he was, he wasn't a socialist he was a communist , a nationalistic communist versus an internationalist communist which is why Stalin killed a bunch of jews.

Ah, but I think there is a fine line between socialism and communism. Socialism does not cross many of the bounds that Communism does in its vision of society.

Also, I'm not saying that it's Christianity specifically, I'm just talking about religion in general. I think Marx understood that religion would not just vanish suddenly under Communism, but that it would make an effort to suppress it until it eventually disappeared.

And, I'm sure Engels is rolling in his grave as we speak lmao

No you fucking idiot i already told you that the original communists hated gays, they outlawed it ffs and Engels called them fags

>i mostly browse /pol/

we all know where you're really from

>>>/reddit/

FFS fascism is a COLLECTIVIST idealogy, not a SOCIALIST one. NEWFAG GENOCIDE WHEN?

>thread about traditional family structures and it's derailed by /pol/fugees and leftist retards

This board really is shit.

>fascist-boo
>posts warhammer 40k artwork
Seriously, isn't it past your bedtime?

But I'll humor you. Oh great scholar, what are the differences between the Fascist economic system and the socialist economic system?

The fundemental reason why the traditional family is dying is due to materialist bullshit, where capitalist basically go

>ah the free market will fix it, just look at Fukashima!

While communists go

>i didn't want the family structure anyways

Fascism doesn't destroy the class system or private property you moron topkek, it puts caps at the maximum and minimum amount you can own at one time to still allow for a natural hierarchy to take place within the economy. Its collectivist because of that, not socialist. Fascism is barely even traditionalist, I'd rather live under a monarchy than a fascist state.

>keeps making comment about age

How more obvious of a newfag can you be?

I made the post with Tocqueville's take on how materialism much more so than capitalism itself is the reason for the breakdown of not just the family but other things.

:^(

Are you being dense on purpose just to string me on? Hitler needed to have the industrialists onside to gear up for war and for all the IOUs the nazis were racking up which would have to be paid off with war booty. The SA weren't just purged for their thuggishness but because Röhm (and the Strassers) still held redistributive and radical anti-capitalistic ideals. See also the abandonment of the 25 point programme. I don't see any reason why you'd deny these uncontroversial facts unless you were just a shitposter farming (You)s.

Fascism basically makes a permanent solution to the Pareto distribution of wealth in this manner. it doesn't abolish private property.

>Fascism doesn't destroy the class system or private property you moron topkek, it puts caps at the maximum and minimum amount you can own at one time to still allow for a natural hierarchy to take place within the economy.
It tells that you're a moron if you don't realize that allowing a government to have a say in how much you are legally allowed to own will inevitably lead to your property falling under government control.

>I'd rather live under a monarchy than a fascist state.
I heard the state of Lesotho still has a king. Since you're mentally a nigger you could go live there.

>>keeps making comment about age
You're the one who brought it up you moronic nigger.

I'm talking about the NatSoc IDEOLOGY, not what Hitler did in practice.

Lenin instated the NEP, I GUESS HE WASN'T A COMMUNIST LOL.

Fucking nigger-tier logic right there.

All right I'm out, Veeky Forums has got to be the worst board in terms of content. Go back to leftycuck you fucking niggerloving kikes.

>falling under government control.

Yes its a collectivist idealogy. What else is new here? Like I told you a million times collectivism =/= socialism, socialism is its own form of collectivism.

>edgy banter

topkek thats exactly what arguing with capitalists is like.

>hurr fuck off im not debating someone who disagrees with me XD

>you brought it up

as b8 to see if the newfag would bite

Most American progressives aren't really "Left" in any global sense of the term, they like the inherently unequal qualities of capitalism, they simply enjoy patting themselves on the back by fixing lesser social inequalities within societal issues, it allows them to appear as "the good guys" and keeps the population complacent.

>I guess it depends on what you mean by "Left". If you mean American progressives, then sure. But those new "traditional authoritarians" are, economically speaking, leftists, in that they seek a greater degree of control over the economy from government.

A centralized government and economy does not make "the Left", to be fair mate. What defines the Left vs the Right on its deepest, most simplified level is its desire to fix perceived inequalities in the world rather than preserve a sacred, more free and natural order, as does the right. Neither position is inherently wrong and it's interesting to debate the merits of each side of this gross oversimplification. I'll grant you that Centralized Economies are a staple of left-wing regimes though, but that's mostly because anti-authoritarian/government left-wing ideology is complete hippie rubbish, it simply doesn't work.

But yeah, if the government's control of the economy and use of taxes is not meant to redistribute wealth and fix inequalities, such as if taxes are mostly used to power massive armies and maintain infrastructure, than it's not really "Left-wing". That's why Communists like Stalin, while just as bad as Hitler if you ask me, is left-wing, while the Nazis post-cleanup, or Mussolini's fascists, are not.

>one only killed a few jew the other tried to kill all of them

Hitler was obviously superior.

>I'm talking about the NatSoc IDEOLOGY (you know, the ideology that Hitler stopped even paying lip service to after '25 and purged all supporters of through the 30s)
>Fucking nigger-tier logic right there.
>All right I'm out, Veeky Forums has got to be the worst board in terms of content. Go back to leftycuck you fucking niggerloving kikes.
So you get blown out by a couple of basic facts that highschoolers know and you reveal yourself to be a flagwaving /pol/tard idiot.
You're welcome to go back to back to your memeshitter safespace where facts fon't matter and leave us here to discuss history.

Satan, that's what.
youtube.com/watch?v=sFaDD30Yk68

Nothing in that post is false

Democratic councils of various levels of organization determine who gets what. Read the bread book or at least read Bookchin.

In a cooperative system of resource distribution, production is based on ability and need. If you participate in society, you can enjoy societal benefits whenever you want.

Yes he did. Marx identifies the deleterious effects of capitalism on morals and family life as specific harms of that mode of production, harms that would no longer exist in another mode of production.

We aren't all anglos or Nordics you know, here in Spain family is a big thing.

>Not sure feminie young men or 40 something butch lesbian.

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need really isn't fair tbqh.

This is one the things that Communists never talk about, in a society where everyone is equal, there is also no one who is exceptional in any way, because they don't need to be.

>traditional moral values are capable of reaching an apogee at all, implying that moral values exist on some kind of discrete range, and not simply change like the fragile, ever changing social constructs they actually are

Yes, that's why people can choose to be extraordinary in whatever shit they do if they want to, not because they have to

Yeah, I'm sure the fact that lawyers or doctors make six-figure incomes has no impact on whether or not people do a good job or not.

>humans cant have interest without materialistic motivation

i guess bangladesh have no doctors or lawyers at all

Even a Bangladeshi doctor makes more money than the rest of the population.

Also, I'm not saying motivation doesn't matter, I'm saying a materialistic motivation actually helps, and you guys are saying it literally doesn't matter at all, which is ridiculous.

Not compensating people properly for work that is extremely unforgiving is not fair. But I guess we have different definitions of fair.

Da Joo

Plain and simple, marxism.

The family has been replaced by the state.

the idea would be you have a sufficient standard for everyone and deviating from the avarage would be less
doesnt stop ppl wanting to innovate or help others

nobody is "worth" 10 thousand more than the other no matter what they do, humans exist in a community, thats why we became so developed, cooperation is in our instict, not competition as others try to suggest

people realized that it is romanticized bullshit, their lives would be shit either way.

>traditional values and morality reached their apogee in the "hyper-capitalist" Victorian era.

Yes, that's why you could get a 12 year old hooker at every corner in london.

This, it always seemed weird to me how Americans defend their traditional family values so fervently when their idea of a traditional family already seems very modern to me.

In Italy men still wait until they are married to leave the house .

>In Italy men still wait until they are married to leave the house
Are you Italian? As a Milanfag I think is more related to economic reasons, in the south it's probably like you say

National Socialim was only socialist in name, literally every scholar with a reputation will confirm that.

Economically it was corporatist and capitalist, philosophically it was collectivist as the other guy said. You are wrong on all levels.

b t f o

>every scholar with a reputation

i dont know what scholars you read but everybody agrees natsoc is not the opposite of communism

Woman's rights

For reasons unknown the white woman is probably the most cancerous form of human female that has ever existed.

>are we just being raided by leftycuck virgins?
Yep. Again.