What could have saved the KMT realistically?

Purging communist sympathizers from the U.S. personnel involved in China.

But they are still kicking. One of the biggest parties in Taiwan

GMD probably should have done something about the following:

>Land reform
>Inflation
>Infrastructure collapse

As for dealing with the Commies, they could have tried to split them by appealing to whatever moderate socialists were left, although they arguably burned their bridges w/ the whole "White Terror" thing.

Executing Chiang when they had the chance in 1937

If you haven't noticed, the US has a tendency to support extremely shit right wing military dictators.

Commies or no commies, the KMT dug it's own grave.

They need rescue in Taiwan now....but it's not history. Not yet.

Hopeless wish tier.
>Never shouldve made that stupid deal with the Soviets.
>Japan not fucking KMT shit up.
Plausible tier
>Truly unify China. None of that compromises with the warlords.
>Fucking stop nepotism.
>Don't alienate peasants
>DO
>NOT
>ALIENATE
>PEASANTS

People seem to forget that china was 95% starving peasants in 1930.

>One of the biggest parties in Taiwan
And thoroughly fucked over in the previous election by the Orange and Green parties

Bruh KMT is losing to stupid gay-marrying otaku liberal children pushing an invented national identity called "Taiwan" around.

The status quo of "Chinese Taipei" is not a stable nor particularly happy one, either.

Meh they won elections in 2012.

Taiwan has a very similar
>leftists win promising muh independence and fail miserably
>lose election to KMT
>KMT works with China too much and fails miserably
>repeat

The best solution is a KMT-run Taiwan. China is simply too powerful for Taiwan to break away anymore, and this will only continue in the future.

Maybe a Hong Kong deal will happen where the two sides work closer and closer on economics while staying politically separate.

We've already seen Mrs. Chinese Clinton backtrack on all her promises about independence.

>Maybe a Hong Kong deal will happen where the two sides work closer and closer on economics while staying politically separate.

That is why they will avoid integration. Political separation and economic cooperation are not compatible goals: the stronger economy will exercise ever more political influence over the other, and I don't think they want to find themselves in a situation where their political affairs are being directed by Beijing. It's also not going to happen unless the U.S. makes it abundantly clear that they will completely abandon Taiwan.

>Hong Kong will never rejoin China!

Concentrate most of our war effort on Japan.

As it was, we had about a 70-30 policy where 70% of men, materiel, etc. were used for the European theater.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe_first

>what is a tonal language

this

That's because Asia was a sideshow shithole until the 1970's

What are you trying to tell us?

No, that's 吗. MaBuFang's name uses 马.

Throwing commies at the japanese war machine instead of doing it themselves while commies jerked off in the mountains waiting for KMT to get weak

Why did Truman put an arms embargo on the nationalists back in 1946? What the fuck was he thinking?

Carrying the anti-Red action to the fullest when it was actually still possible and being pragmatic in the situation when you saw the Reds not fighting the Nipps like they were supposed to, but annexing areas held by KMT and thus doing the same thing yourself: fighting the commies to ground first, then concentrating on the Nipps.

Then there was the massive problem of Cash-my-check, who had trouble - if liking him personally - purging obvious Red agents in his midst and in high positions.
But was he complete failure in military leadership like Vinegar Joe said? I don't think so: 'the only good officer in Oriental' had problem with just about everyone (including all other US military personel) and never saw anything wrong with himself.

i don't think it would have mattered that much. by the time the US got into the war, the KMT war machine was mostly wrecked anyways in the battles of shanghai and wuhan. by the time the US got into full wartime swing, the KMT was even further gutted and maimed. the only hope in your scenario would be the US kicking the ass of the japanese empire hard and fast enough to prevent manchuria + north china from falling into chinese commie/soviet hands, which was crucial for the chinese commies. i doubt it was plausible anyways, the soviets would have taken advantage of a collapsing japanese empire in manchuria faster than the US could get there or prevent it.

also the KMT would still be hopeless corrupt, incompetent, and stupid.

commies were too clever to get directly involved

>But was he complete failure in military leadership like Vinegar Joe said? I don't think so
he made some seriously retarded mistakes after the japanese were gone. his forces were exhausted and decimated, and against US advice he still insisted on garrisoning all the cities everywhere instead of letting the commies have manchuria and dominating the cities and countryside south of there. instead, he got a ton of troops tied up in really shitty, easily surrounded situations up north. it was a hopeless fight up there

There isn't a single right-wing dictator the U.S. didn't stab in the back.

He was retarded. One of the worst presidents, basically responsible for the entire Cold War.

Because he listened to communist intellectual, civil servants and military officers who told him the KMT was bad and the Chinese communists were just agrarian reformers that would install a democracy in China if they won.

Edgar Snow, Owen Lattimore, Brooks Atkinson, Agnes Smedley, even Joseph Stilwell and George Marshall, should have been lined up and shot.

German victory

>Give more clay guizi, the clay you already gave us ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH

50 cent army should be shot on sight

>What could have saved the KMT realistically?- 38 posts and 3 image replies shown.

Wang, Chiang Kai-Shek lost the war by starting it.

Truman was a sissy boy who didn't know how to lead a country

Yes but the rise of the NPP(Yellow party not Orange my bad) circumvents and undercuts the regular KMT powerbase

Commies lost 400,000 men. Remember that the Commies were decimated in 1937-1940. Chiang had been wasting all his build points on autism, which is the main reason he for gangraped by the Japs.

America-Israel's interest always override those who their pawns.

Not even /pol/.

Tsai is failing so miserably that Taiwan's political system might just implode on itself like in the rest of the world's democracies.

You are fucking delusional if you can't see China's increasing control of Taiwan. Trump practically sold Taiwan in his recent deal with China.

I thought it was closer to 99.9999%

Isn't that the party with the death metal guy?

>pushing an invented national identity called "Taiwan" around.
taiwanese identity is no more made up than """"han"""" chinese identity. taiwan's people is made up of a coherent group of people of mainland exiles, chinese who have lived there since the 1600s or so (with immigration over the centuries and have mixed to some extent with the aboriginal population, and then the small aboriginal population of the island itself located in the mountainous interior.

>People seem to forget that china was 95% starving peasants in 1930.
thats an exaggeration. the consensus is not clear how peasants fare in republican china, but there is a agreement that there was great variation between different areas of the country. Even so, I've seen works that argued that a lot of peasants actually did well during these decades and conditions were not nearly exploitative or dire as traditional historiography has held.

>what is manchurian 1931
>what is marco polo bridge incidence 1937

Death of Chiang instead of Sun Yat-sen

chiang obviously didn't have fuck all to do with manchuria in 1931, but he absolutely escalated the marco polo incident in 1937 when he could have easily walked everything down

strangely enough, chiang better for the KMT than sun yat-sen. sun was more an idealistic figurehead, he was terrible as a real political leader, let alone as an administrator or military leader. dude got burned and screwed again and again and again. chiang at least knew how to get somethings done on his own initiative, even if he bumbled and fucked up big time in the end. sun ALWAYS relied on somebody else.

>conditions were not nearly exploitative or dire as traditional historiography has held.
Makes sense. Depicting the pre-communist days as hell on earth was in the PRC's best interest.

Right, Japan was definitely just going to stop snatching up Chinese clay. They were very humble and reasonable like that.

i didn't say that, obviously japan was going to attack sooner or later since tokyo couldn't control their officers in china. but it is true that chiang chose to fight that war then are there. there had been dozens of incidents not dissimilar to the marco polo bridge incident, chiang just chose to escalate that particular one since he looked like a weak dipshit after the xi'an incident. also the north was still controlled by ""allied"" warlords and not his own KMT troops, so if the japanese attacked he figured it would be they who would bear the brunt. he just underestimated how all-encompassing japanese designs were and overestimated his own strength.

>a weak dipshit after the xi'an incident
in that sense, didn't the xi'an incident force him to turn toward japan? had he ignored the rising anti-japanese sentiment in the country he surely would have been deposed, right? could he really have survived if he solely focused on the communists?

>Ma Hongkui was a prominent warlord within the Ma Clique
>General Ma Hongkui suffered from severe diabetes attacks, and in 1949 it was so bad he was not expected to recover.[47][53][54] Despite his diabetes, he was addicted to ice cream and ate it constantly
What a tragedy that guys like this didn't end up running China...

it did force him to turn towards japan, but he always wanted to crush the commies first. he looked weak because he was kidnapped by the warlord who had lost all his manchurian land to the japanese(so a weak guy himself) and forced to agree to an alliance with mao and the commies. it was widely known that chiang loathed mao and the commies and had been been trying to eliminate them,and to be forced into an alliance with them made him look even weaker.

and who would have deposed him? the KMT army was entirely loyal to him and the nationalist government was just a puppet of the army.

if left alone he probably could have crushed the communists, but who knows when the japanese would have attacked. they were absolutely dead-set on conquering north china, and like i said tokyo had only a weak grip out there.

how did they keep all the icecream cold without refrigerators?

*Blocks your path*

lmao

How is she failing? Really can't be worse than the previous leaders

Yes some new party made with X-gen people

Maybe he had refrigerator

There are stories about these warlords. From being interested in industrialization of his kingdom to dumb tribal chief and cargo cult.

1. Not being hopelessly corrupt
2. Not having zero national control
3. Not alienating the peasants AND the urban workers

The KMT were so fucking dogshit. Whenever you want to find out if someone has no clue on history ask them if they thought the KMT were better than the CCP for China and if they say "yes" then you'll know to disregard their opinion on everything.

All national identities are invented qianbei. Wanna tell us next about how China has always been a nation of 56 nationalities living in harmony?

>when the communists capture the only refrigerator in the region so the only icecream you have left is the ice box in the car with like three more ice cream sandwiches and haagen das green tea ice cream but i don't eat green tea ice cream cause i know that the american marketers are giving me free samplers because they think i like green tea cause im asian and i'd probably give it to my soldiers except if i feed them icecream they'd be spoiled and their morale would lower once the green tea ice cream runs out

ahh yes the butthurt mainlander

Same way they kept the beer cold.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_house_(building)

>Even so, I've seen works that argued that a lot of peasants actually did well during these decades
Gonna need your sources

I have no fucking clue how how you can claim peasants did well 1912-1949. Did they all just have autism attacks and decide to join the CCP for the lulz?

Chiang didn't make the decision to retaliate in the Marco Polo Incident. That was a general acting on his own.
Once the Japs started a full war his hand was forced though.

>KMT generals kidnapped him and forced him to ally with the Communists
>the KMT army was entirely loyal to him and the nationalist government was just a puppet of the army.

I'm having trouble reconciling these two claims.

National identities != ethnic identities

Good job using a strawman though

Ad hom

The number of mainlanders on Veeky Forums's Veeky Forums are in the single digits, if they even exist.

The truth is that 50 years ago 99% of Taiwan's people identified as Han Hokkien Chinese. They screamed WE WUZ QINGZ to claim control over all former Qing territories.

Now they claim WE WUZZNT QINGZ, WE WUZ ABORIGINALZ N SHIIEET

I didn't actually believe the other user until now kek

I'm just quoting from Wikipedia here but it doesn't sound rosy exactly:

The early republic was marked by frequent wars and factional struggles. Following the presidency of Yuan Shikai to 1927, famine, war and change of government was the norm in Chinese politics, with provinces periodically declaring "independence". The collapse of central authority caused the economic contraction that was in place since Qing to speed up, and was only reversed when Chiang reunified China in 1927

The rural economy was hit hard by the Great Depression of the 1930s, in which an overproduction of agricultural goods lead to massive falling prices for China as well as an increase in foreign imports (as agricultural goods produced in western countries were "dumped" in China). In 1931, imports of rice in China amounted to 21 million bushels compared with 12 million in 1928. Other goods saw even more staggering increases. In 1932, 15 million bushels of grain were imported compared with 900,000 in 1928. This increased competition lead to a massive decline in Chinese agricultural prices (which were cheaper) and thus the income of rural farmers. In 1932, agricultural prices were 41 percent of 1921 levels.[44] Rural incomes had fallen to 57 percent of 1931 levels by 1934 in some areas.[44]

The nationalist government seized control of private banks in the notorious banking coup of 1935 and replaced the currency with the Fabi, a fiat currency issued by the ROC. The ROC government used this privilege to issue currency en masse[...]

And then everything only got worse after the Japanese invaded.

Get the shit done in an encirclement campaign

10/10 shop. Very good.

Weren't the commies interested in negotiations in the meeting mediated by USA after Japan was defeated? But Chiang said fuck that and wanted to eradicate the commies by force.

>WE WUZ QINGZ
Kek, I'm going to use this for future shitposting reasons, thank you.

I was curious about this too. I looked into the Time Magazine article about him that the wikipedia footnotes led to. He seems to be eating the ice cream out of a wooden pail. Maybe he's making it himself instead of shipping it in and storing it.

KMT generals didn't kidnap him, a loosely allied warlord kidnapped him. there were a bunch of of warlords who were allied with the KMT because the KMT more or less forced them to. the KMT couldn't wipe out these warlords because they wanted wipe out the commies first, be ready for a japanese attack, and not erode their strength to the point where they just became another warlord group under chiang themselves, they wanted to remain top dogs.

the northern expedition that supposedly reunified north china under the KMT really just had the three main warlord groups of the north submit to chiang, but they never actually went away completely. same thing in the south to a lesser extent(guangxi clique really being the only notable one there). this is when the commies smashed KMT forces in the 1948-49 huaihai campaign in north-central china, the war was effectively over since the other warlords turned on chiang and tried to negotiate their own surrender with the commies. there was no effective fallback in the mainland, so they fled to taiwan.

Thomas Rawski, Economic Growth in Prewar China

>The truth is that 50 years ago 99% of Taiwan's people identified as Han Hokkien Chinese.
A Hokkien identity is really only apparent when there's a significant other(Hokkien vs Hakka),left to their own devices the ancestral village was more important(Quanzhou vs Zhangzhou).

>Now they claim WE WUZZNT QINGZ, WE WUZ ABORIGINALZ N SHIIEET
Must be a relatively recent phenomenon,my relatives don't use 番仔 for no reason.

actual Taiwanese Aborigine here, none of the taiwanese claim to be us. you saw the one sensationalized survey by a uni sociologist and extrapolated that to every person living on the island. it's sad.

>National identities != ethnic identities
>Good job using a strawman though

Except the official CCP propaganda that characterizes China as a "multicultural nation with 56 nationalities living in harmony" is a key part of modern Chinese national identity. Chinese repeat this bullshit line all the time in order to justify their control over Tibetans and Uighurs.

Good job reading between the lines.

>muh 50 cent army boogeyman
The 50 cent army doesn't even operate on English speaking sites, moreover the goal of the 50 cent army to fabricate consensus not bait strangers on imageboards.

>justify their control over Tibetans
oh no, if only they'd left them under a theocratic feudal system

>Tibet wants independence
Tibetans do not want independence, they want more religious freedom. IIRC, the Dali Lllama conducted a poll back in '08 and found less than 40% of native Tibetans desired independence. For most, all that is wanted is more religious freedom.
timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/tibet-doesnt-want-freedom-but-just-autonomy-says-dalai-lama/articleshow/58038071.cms
I do not know about the Uighurs but didn't KMT claim control over Xinjiang too?

>What could have saved the KMT realistically?

WW3.

Chiang was banking on Cold War going hot and letting the US put ground troops to fight CCP and USSR post-ww2.

With friends like that, who needs enemies.

generals who wouldn't kidnap their leader and force him to concentrate on commies. Sure they would have gotten fucked in ww2 but after the japs left (which they would have coz of america) they wouldn't have commies.

>a lot of peasants did well in a period that was described as "'More Officers than Soldiers, More Soldiers than Guns, and More Bandits than Human Beings."
Anything nearby or north of the Yangtze was a mess of frontlines and shifting allegiances.

>Baaaaah the evil Westerners colonized us and took muh Hong Kong away
>But it's totally justified for us to invade Tibet and it's not colonialist in anyway

Chinese nationalists are such disgusting hypocrites

I never claimed that all Tibetans want independence, just that Chinese use meme history to claim that China has always been multicultural and thus shoot down any suggestion of independence or even autonomy for minority regions. Any suggestion by the Dakar Lama that China grant more religious freedom or autonomy to Tibet is always met with accusations by Chinese that it's all a plot to separate Tibet from China. Chinese don't give a shit what Tibetans want.

Your article also doesn't mention any poll. In any case, it's impossible to know what Tibetans inside China want because the Chinese government forbids any foreign researchers or journalists from entering Tibet, much less conduct opinion polls.

And yes, the KMT also claimed Xinjiang.

The big sword corps was the only intersting thing to come out of republican china

youtube.com/watch?v=UefYeJ4meuE

youtube.com/watch?v=9HSsiWvJf3U

Of course it's totally justified. Both Tibet and Hong Kong were Chinese territory during Qing dynasty, they were not totally different from Chinese, and they never belong to Westerners no matter culturally ,ethnically and politically before mid 19th century. Took Tibet back was merely to recover our divided soils. Besides, comparing Western colonization in HK with the situation of Tibet is false equivalent in the first place.

Western supremacists are always far more disgusting and hypocritical, Chinese nationalism is merely a counter measure. You westerners think you still have the rights to decide non-western countries' business? No, you don't. Westerners are not slave masters or colonial masters of this world anymore, the "good-old days" are long gone.

Just asked someone what that means and they said it was a 講不聽的人
hmm

america not betraying them.

What? No she's not. She's not doing well by any means, she's taken some massive popularity hits lately, but the system itself isn't in danger.

Well,it could be used in that context as a tongue-in-cheek reprimand. On the other hand,it could be used in discriminatory way(some of the older generations still think aborigines are drunkards and louts).

The DPP reeks of Hoklo Chauvinism not some half-hearted attempt at seeking solidarity with the natives.

If anything they are far more likely to be Japanophiles than claiming aboriginal ancestry/relating towards aboriginals.