Did Native Americans ever have a chance at getting technologically advanced before Europeans...

Pyramids are baby tier. Even pinoys built some.

>before Europeans

Europeans were stone age too before cultural diffusion from the Middle East.

The mesoamerican civilizations were in constant wars against each other

>Spanish conquistador Hernán Cortés arrived in Tenochtitlan on November 8, 1519. With an estimated population between 200,000 and 300,000, many[who?] scholars believe Tenochtitlan to have been among the largest cities in the world at that time.[14] Compared to Europe, only Paris, Venice and Constantinople might have rivaled it. It was five times the size of the London of Henry VIII.[6] In a letter to the Spanish king, Cortés wrote that Tenochtitlan was as large as Seville or Córdoba. Cortes' men were in awe at the sight of the splendid city and many wondered if they were dreaming.[15]

They came up with a writing system independently.

>Pyramids are baby tier.
>old worlders couldn't build something even close to pic related youtube.com/watch?v=WaLRMq8sgYM

lmaoing @t your life

>The Classic Maya understood many astronomical phenomena: For example, their estimate of the length of the synodic month being more accurate than Ptolemy's,[2] and their calculation as to the length of the tropical solar year was more accurate than that of the Spanish when the latter first arrived.[3]

They developed in an area barely bigger than the Iberian Peninsula, whereas the area of cultural exchange of the Old World ranged from Portugal to Japan and from Indonesia to Iceland.
>Didn't met Central Asians and their horses, Mesopotamians and their steel and bulls, Egyptians and their ships, Indians and their mathematics and astronomy, Greeks and their science and thinking, Romans and their engeneering and law, Chinese and their gunpowder and compass. And still got:

>Biggest structures in the world up to this day
>Better medicine than in Renaissance Europe
>Equal if not better hydraulic engeneering than that of the Old World
>World's best astronomy
>Only people to develop crops able to produce 7 harvests a year
>World's best genetically manipulated crops, provided the world with cotton, corn, amaranth, chocolate and spices
>Developed writting, zoologies, botanical gardens, mathematics and the concept of zero despite being isolated
>First state in history to introduce universal compulsory education
>Slavery was not hereditary and slaves could buy their freedom

That's not even considering the amount of time they had to achieve it. Oldest civilizations in the Old World are from 9000 b.c. while the Mesoamericans started in 2000 bc.
If only they had been in contact with the developments, and diseases, of the massive area of exchange in the Old World. Only disease they introduced was a bedbug infection and syphilis (whose origins are still disputed), while the Old World gave them the bubonic plague, chicken pox, cholera diphtheria, influenza. leprosy, malaria, measles, scarlet fever, smallpox, typhoid, typhus, whooping cough, yaws and yellow fever. All at the same time.

they were too young ;_;

They never stagnated, in fact they were just in the early stages of empire building and making rapid progress. They were probably at about 350BC in European terms.

The European arrival just changed everything forever.

They could have surpassed Europe

Humans arrived to America 12000 - 10000 years ago and important sedentary settlements started almost 3000 years ago at much. Is not a matter of being able to reach the level of the rest of the world, but they started 5000 later.

And of course, not being able to communicated with other cultures didn't help either.

There was no stagnation. They were pretty advanced in comparison with the rest of the world. Europe was the exception, not the norm.

If only the Incans and the Mayans/Aztecs weren't too far from each other and separated by the Darien gap, maybe through the cultural and technological diffusion they might have been able to advance at a much quicker pace.

And also if only the classical Mayan civilization didn't break up and die out essentially by the time the Spanish got there. The Mayans seem like the Greeks of the new world, the Incans the Romans of the new world.
It kind of sucks that writing was not developed in the Peruvian coast before columbus. The Caral civilization there could've made something similar to cuneiform with all the clay tablets they could've made there living in the desert. With no way of keeping detailed records aside from possibly the quipu, a lot of history was lost. Imagine as if the Sumerians or the Chinese hadn't made their alphabets until a lot later and any records of antiquity weren't put down. That's a lot of history lost.

The Aztecs the Germans of the new world

>the Incans the Romans of the new world
you wish, as if romans had built something equal to pic related

It has nothing to do with the Darién Gap. People always say shit like "MAN, WHAT IF THE AZTECS AND MAYA MET THE INCA" but that's just because those are the only three Precolumbian civilizations most people have heard of. Truth is, there was plenty of cultural exchange going on in Mexico/Central America & South America - it was dotted with cities, most of which did not belong to the Big Three.

They didn't really advance at a slower pace than the Old World civilizations. Considering they got a much later start on domesticating calorically dense staple crops like maize/squash/potatoes, they were doing quite well.

It has nothing to do with climate. They made do in pretty harsh climates. Lack of horses for faster travel of information, technology, ideas etc. This made their progress slower and more difficult but they were still progressing. There wasn't a stagnation.

They developed metallurgy at a slower pace, despite the fact that metallurgy was one of the few things transmitted directly between Andeans and Mesoamericans (through seaborn trade between Ecuador and Western Mexico).

In most ways you're right though; considering Mesoamerican civilization only started around 1200 BC, they had about two thousand less years than the Middle East/Europe to develop. That would put the height of Mesoamerican civilization around 600-800 AD around the same stage as the height of Bronze Age civilization around 1400-1200 BC, and aside from metallurgy I don't see any reason to think Mesoamerican were less impressive. The Mayans had shit like suspension bridges and aqueducts at that point, which didn't exist in the Eurasian bronze age.

Preclassic is like 1800 bc I thought.

That style of architecture is neolithic and died out in the Old World after the bronze age collapse, the Romans had far more advanced methods of construction.

Pic related, from Mycenae.

Nah, the Olmecs arose around 1200ish and the Mayans came even later.

Mycenae is from the Late Bronze Age, and its masonry is nowhere near as impressive as Inca stuff. No Neolithic architecture looks anything like that of the Incas, the closest being a few Maltese temples which aren't nearly comparable in scale or technical skill.

I feel sorry for the native Americans tbqh

They didn't deserve burger domination

The nuraghes in Sardinia are extremely complex structures, with (at the time) around 10000 of them even in places where bringing big rocks was really difficult, like on tops of hills.

Exactly

Pic related Nuragic masonry in 1300 bc

Unironically this. We are experiencing the native equivalent to the renaissance. Pride in indigeneity is increasing everyday and natives are becoming healthier and stronger.

Another example.
Still, I think Inca architecture and civilization are awesome, way beyond Neolithic tier, at least bronze age Europe tier but possibly beyond too

Acqueducts existed in Eurasia during the bronze age.

(Minoan Crete, Mycenean Greece, Sardinia)

Neolithic isn't an insult, the Pyramids are neolithic. In fact stoneworking techniques got WORSE after the neolithic.

Of course there were more cultures apart from them, but the other big one at least in mexican part of nativeAmerica, the Olmecas. They however died long before the rising of the mexicas, plus the other cities where simply submitted by tribute to the mexicas.

...

This map is claiming the people who built Cahokia were hunter gatherers, so I doubt it's very accurate.

It's inaccurate in saying 'hunting' and 'hunting-gathering'.

The places marked 'hunting' were hunters and gatherers.

The places marker 'hunting-gathering' were hunters and gardeners.

It's inaccurate in the direction of depicting North America as less developed than it really was.

Where do you think Cahokia was?

Saint Louis?

>tfw when I'm working to make several native based projects in comics and animations.

Germanic shits can't even figure out cities or writing.

What is all this "unable to communicate with other cultures"?

What do you call 2 continents with 100's of nations, wide ranging nutrition, mobility, empires, stationary, mobile, very different!

What, that they were brown? C'mon, gonna need more than that

There was communication, but without camels, horses its hard to travel several hundreds miles. This is why long distance trade was mostly by canoe, That said communication and even long distance trade between the continents did happen, but I imagine with horses and camels communications would be much faster.

this
various overlooked pre-civilizations along the way from the south (inca) to the north (maya, aztecs)

mediterranean geography is way different from american geography
>jungles
>mountain ridges
>swamps
>deserts
that does not help

>What caused their stagnation?
When will this meme end?

This.

>natives are becoming healthier and stronger
Not gonna fight you on the idea that indigenous pride is on the upsurge, but it's not a shameful thing to say the human race (and therefore indigenous Americans) peaked in health and strength with Jim Thorpe

>literally comparing a single continent like America, 43 316 000 km2, stretching from the North Pole to the Antartica, mountain ranges, deserts, deep tropical forest, micro climates every 100 m and so on, to the Mediterranean and the Near East
>without saying the small population of pre columbian America and the lack of horses or any animal able to travel long distances with a heavy load

Consider the following:

The distance from México DF, back then Technoticlan, to Cuzco is 4717 km, of course on a straight line, the distance increases if you consider they would have to travel across Tropical Central America and the Andes, by foot.

Thats about the distance from Lisboa to Baghdad, a distance covered mostly by sea and with animals on land.

I love that there are still things to learn in Veeky Forums in the middle of all of the /pol/

>We are experiencing the native equivalent to the renaissance

HAHAHAHAHAHA

>native equivalent to the renaissance
I don't even know what would compel somebody to make a statement like that

They arrived late to the party. By the time big nations were setting up and moving toward the first empires they had europeans knocking on the door.

Honestly, they had the same technology as Africans.

Had North America been full of Malaria it would still be Native American today.

>and natives are becoming healthier and stronger.
I have yet to see one that is taller than 6 foot and is not as ugly as an aborted fetus. On top of that I can't name a single 100% native athlete.

>as if romans had built something equal to pic related
Are you serious?

Maybe they spent a few moments in awe, but very quickly they built a big fire and started to tear off everything that was made of gold or silver, and began melting it.

retard

>Biggest structures in the world up to this day
Nope
>>Better medicine than in Renaissance Europe
Nope. It was acupuncture. In Europe doctors performed some surgeries and were developing modern medicine
>>Equal if not better hydraulic engeneering than that of the Old World
Nope
>>World's best astronomy
Nope. This is just WE WUZism
>>Only people to develop crops able to produce 7 harvests a year
No clue. They had different crops and climates
>>World's best genetically manipulated crops, provided the world with cotton, corn, amaranth, chocolate and spices
Those cropsare natural to America
>>Developed writting, zoologies, botanical gardens, mathematics and the concept of zero despite being isolated
Like almost any civilization. Even Africans
>>First state in history to introduce universal compulsory education
Nope
>>Slavery was not hereditary and slaves could buy their freedom
I am pretty sure this happened almost everywhere

How were they more advanced than Africans

>It was acupuncture tier

>B-but they wuzn't kings!!!

Are you fucking kidding me?

Mayan cities had hundreds of thousands of inhabitants, sewers, excellent city planning over all, Inca had excellent roads and incredibly efficient agriculture, incredible masonry and architecture

Maybe only Egypt had comparable monuments, btu that's it, West Africa was inferior on every aspect and so was Ethiopia (they had good architecture but Mayans surpass them in everything else)

Where did you get that penguin from??

Using a minecraft reconstruction is not an argument pal. You are assuming that pyramids are an actual impressive construction when your average cathedral takes way more technique and knowledge to construct. Claiming that the tiny ass pyramids of the Mayans are as impressive as the Colisseum is just stupid.
West Africans were way more advanced in metalurgy,cattle raising and warfare

>your average cathedral

Were you not talking about Africans?

I like how you keep moving your goalpost, you pathetic little poltard.

>tiny ass Pyramids

Lol?

Is this a joke?

>as impressive as the Colisseum

Oh yeah, the famous African colosseum, give me a break, you've lost the argument, give it up.

>minoan crete
>mycenean greece
Why did the other civilizations destroyed and didn't adopt these structures?

Because after the Bronze age collapse Greeks forgot how to write and stopped living in cities for the most part, though some cities were not abandoned completely, so it's possible that some of those acqueducts were still in use, around the 7th century bc Greeks started building acqueducts agains

>Cathedrals>pyramids
>tiny

>Africans were more advanced in metallurgy

Maybe, but Natie American jewelry was much more advanced than African

>warfare

Ok

And Native Americans were way more advanced in:

1)Writing, because they actually came up with it in Mesoamerica

2)architecture: both Mayan and Ica archtiecture si way more impressive than anything in West Africa, both in scale and technique, both Andean civilization and Mesoamerican ones left behind an incredible number of stunning monument, what did African leave behing? an ugly mudhut mosque? a weird stone circle? The only decent monuments were made in Ethiopia and are still way less than those built by native Americans

3)agriculture: Inca's agriculture techniques were much more advanced than rudimentary African subsistence tier agriculture

4)City planning/urbanization: Mayan cities were as big as contemporary European ones, while African cities were glorified villages made of scattered mudhuts without any city planning, Mesoamerican ones were cleaner and more well palnned than even European ones, let alone African """"cities""""

5)Jewelry: As I said before

In Africa you have castles in Ghana that are way harder to build than pyramids and the Nubian pyramids if you are just interested in pyramids. Claiming that native americans were more advanced than Ghana or Mali is just stupid

Astronomy as well m8. It always surprises me how accurate the natives were, especially aztecs and mayans with their rudimentary tools. Mayan observations on Venus are impressive.

Not exactly. The events aren't fully known , but the Spanish likely stayed in the royal palace for a weeks before they kidnapped Moctezuma II and used him as a puppet. There was even a period when Cortes left to Veracruz, and by the time he returned the Aztecs had elected a new king and Moctezuma died in debatable circumstances, sometimes speculated at the hands of his own people.

>Better medicine than in Renaissance Europe
>Nope. It was acupuncture.
Historians have always commended the Aztecs for having had more effective medicinal practices than the Europeans at the time.
>acupuncture
Where the fuck did you hear this?
>Equal if not better hydraulic engeneering than that of the Old World
>Nope
This is a reasonable conclusion though. They're utilization of aqueducts was just as effective as the European counterparts. Fun fact: most European societies at the time had god awful hygiene and sanitation, and thought it strange that all Aztecs bathed daily, as well as sweeped the streets clean.
>World's best astronomy
>Nope.
Lol. Are you denying the accuracy of Mesoamerican calendars?
>Only people to develop crops able to produce 7 harvests a year
>Not sure.
Chinampas were basically artificial islands made of soil and it was common for them to yield that much crop.
>First state in history to introduce universal compulsory education
>Nope.
Whether they were first or not, I'm unsure, but education was compulsory for both boys and girls, whether at home or in school.

>african civilizations
>ghana castles
Are you retarded?

Cathedrals are in every way more impressive than a pyramid

>Historians have always commended the Aztecs for having had more effective medicinal practices than the Europeans at the time.
Who? In Europe you had surgeons and arab medicine. I highly doubt that natives had anything close to that
>Lol. Are you denying the accuracy of Mesoamerican calendars?
No. But claiming that they had a deeper understanding of astronomy that people that crossed oceans using astronomy is just dumb

>Claiming that native americans were more advanced than Ghana or Mali is just stupid

Is this a fucking joke?

Show me any building in Mali or Ghana that is more impressive than Mesoamerica/Andean architecture, I'm waiting

>hehehe they had pyramids so they were not advanced

You're a fucking retard, a pyramid that size of certain Mayan ones takes a lot of human effort to build, especially when you considered how refined the stone sued for the building were, also it's not like it was just pyramyds, they had huge palaces, observatories, temples of all kinds, massive walls, underground acqueducts and much more, you're just a fucking poltard with 0 clue of what you're talking about, the fact that they built pyramids (which ARE impressive becase they imply a huge number of humans working on them because of their sheer size alone, thefore a hyge population) doesn't mean that they didn't build anything else

And Maya/Inca housing alone was much more advaned than anything in Africa

Another example of excellent Mayan architecture

...

>“They have their own native skilled doctors who know how to use many herbs and medicines which suffices for them. Some of them have so much experience that they were able to heal Spaniards, who had long suffered from chronic and serious diseases" (Motolinía 1971: 160).

How is herb treatments more advanced than European medicine that alredy had eye surgeons? Do you seriously believe in "natural medicine" and all that crap?

you realize that the western world, right now, used herbs to treat some things, and lazer eye surgery to treat another thing? It's not hard to believe that a herb accomplishes a medicinal purpose.

>eye surgeon
Eye removal?
I remember reading about Inca skull arrow brain exposed injuries healed by surgeons.

I refuse to believe this isnt bait

I am not saying that herb treatment is a myth.I am saying that comparing basic herbal medicine to surgeries and other advanced procedures that led to modern science is stupid.And claiming that it was superior to it is even dumber

>eye surgeon
Europeans knew how to perform some eye surgeries like catracts.Only some edgy we wuz moron would even claim that the Aztecs had more advanced medicine than Europeans.Specially knowing the development of modern medicine is closer to

The point isn't what they used, it's that their methods were more effective, even in the eyes of European missionaries that came to Mexico to convert the natives, which one of whom is cited here But if you want to focus on surgery, the Aztecs did employ some surgical techniques, such as using wooden splints and cords to treat bone fractures, and sticks inserted into the bone when other methods failed. What modern techniques does this sound similar to?

Nice job grasping at straws. One source speaking of how a fewSpaniards were healed from Amerindian medical practices doesn't mean aztecs had better medical skills across the board.

Also, I did come cursory research into cataract surgery, and it seems that the most prominent method until about 1748 was couching. A technique which had a small success rate, and often led to blindness.

Oh for fuck's sake, it's not the only example, if you want a full unbiased opinion here's an article.

annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.pa.06.040166.000301?journalCode=pharmtox.1

What do you mean by that? Do you mean the average health and fitness of the public or are you saying Jim Thorpe was the pinnacle of human health and fitness?

I think either is demonstrably wrong but before I pull out my graphs, stats, pictures of Demetrious Johnson, and other leftist propaganda, I want to know what your position actually is because Im confus

Is this your mind on wewuz? Just because the Spanish gained knowledge from the aztech (something i'd hope or else aztech would be abo level) doesn't mean Aztec medical knowledge was superior to the old world.

Alot of the "Europeans were idiots" is complete fabrication. The article you listed mentions "plant remedies" Rural and Small town Europeans use plant remedies even to this day and especially did centuries ago. This isn't some impress feast.

>Are you serious?
do you want me to answer, just post something equal

>>>World's best genetically manipulated crops, provided the world with cotton, corn, amaranth, chocolate and spices
>Those cropsare natural to America
lmao

>Biggest structures in the world up to this day
Nope
>>Better medicine than in Renaissance Europe
Nope. It was acupuncture. In Europe doctors performed some surgeries and were developing modern medicine
>>Equal if not better hydraulic engeneering than that of the Old World
Nope
>>World's best astronomy
Nope. This is just WE WUZism
nice arguments

For the love of God. Why can't you do some actual research before making claims? Are you aware of the four humors? That was the theory that governed most medicinal practices in Europe for a very long time.

All it stated was that the Aztecs based their methods on empiricism, and that the Europeans based most of theirs on philosophy, which isn't false. Nowhere does it explicitly claim that Europeans were idiots, truth does not partake in bias. What I'm wondering is why it's difficult for you to admit that Europeans weren't #1 at everything ever.

Then I guess Cortes was an edgy wewuzer.

>lmao
>nope
Nice arguments.