Do strong arguments in favor of Holocaust denial exist?

Especially when West Germany paid reparations based on the number of SURVIVORS not the number of dead.

No, unless you consider infopics and propaganda arguments.

What were the Nazi party's thoughts on masturbation?

It's on the fucking sign. All they had to do was work for a couple years. But oy vey physical labor for smooth handed accounting major jews is horrible so they opted for option B. Zyklon B.

Fuck. Wrong button. Sorry, folks.

Ah yes they definitely should have payed the dead people instead that makes sense.

I was pointing out that they wouldn't claim that aunt betty had died (as part of some grand conspiracy to inflate numbers) when aunt betty would have received a check from West Germany as a survivor.

>I'm sure there are censuses that show a huge drop in the population, maps that note villages one year and the next year gone, and there have to be some nazis who plead guilty to war crimes.

Post evidence of those things here so that we can use them against the Holocause deniers.

They'll just call you a kike and say that the Soviets were somehow fabricated the evidence. Without citing anything, naturally.

They usually argue that that it was logistically impossible to kill that many people in that time and dispose of the remains.

no matter what you present to them they will not accept it.

But if you want an example, watch the movie Shoah where they go to some small villages in Eastern Europe and they ask some of the older people to give their account of the day all the Jews were taken from their village. (A humorous part was they asked an old Polish woman if she was sad to see the Jews go, and she said something along the lines of "No, because the girls were much prettier than I and now that they were gone I could get some attention from the men"). And none of them ever heard from them again, and the village remains without a jew some 40 years later.

This kind of thing happened all over parts of Eastern Europe. So much as the nazis declaring whole regions "Judenfrei".

I'd rather have evidence to back me up if I do get into a debate than have nothing, though.

Inb4 someone post the imgur propaganda

It's Wikipedia, but here is a list of Jewish Shtetls which were depopulated during the Holocaust.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_villages_and_towns_depopulated_of_Jews_during_the_Holocaust

Which has been the argument they have used since it was first created in the 1960s by that Holocaust denier in France....forget his name.

All the towns and cities in Lithuania completely depopulated of Jews during the war

dovidkatz.net/dovid/Lithuania/Holocaust/LT-Holocaust.html

The American Nazi, George Rockwell perpetuated this argument as well in this 60s on a pretty large scale.

I wish we could just ignore people like this but I have a feeling that's actually not a good idea...

Yet interestingly the deaths of 70 million in WWII was not logistically impossible.

There is a big problem with this. It requires a lot of additional work. Repatriations, change of borders and post-war chaos made it impossible to accurately collect all needed data.

For example, the first accurate census in Poland was not conducted until 1950.

How did they dispose of the remains anyway?

Am I the only one here who believes that all these numbers are inflated AF?

how are remains usually disposed of?
70+ years of research say otherwise user

It's one thing to point out that "we can't know for sure if it was 4 millions or 6 millions or 8 millions, also some of the survivor stories are obvious bullshit" and another to say "Hitler dindu nuffin he just wanted to corral the perfidious traitors until the end of the war, also we must finish what he started"

Alright, maybe this is a stupid question but lets say they are somehow right and there really were less than 6 million Jewish people killed (not to forget everyone else targeted by the Nazis). It was still an attempt to exterminate and dehumanize an entire group of people. Does the number really matter if it encourages people to remember wwii and be aware of human and civil rights enfractions?

I meant the remains of the remains.
Even if they managed to cremate every dead body perfectly, they're going to have to place the ash somewhere.
Unless they just dumped it into the Baltic sea

They discovered heaps of ashes, some of it was dumped into the river, a lot was also buried.

No, the fucking numbers keep getting smaller.

They are there, but the Jews have pretty strict rules regarding bodies, and most of the time when a mass grave is discovered they will just leave it be....(another weird thing is you can take pics of everything in the Wash DC holocaust museum, except for the room that contains the many kilograms of hair that was Sheared off those entering the camps. So I doubt you will ever see a mass grave opened up unless on the occasional time where someone is digging and the come across a mass grave (which I think happened last year or the before in Belarus)
What number are you referring to? 5.7-6 million has been the consensus for quite some time now.

The did just dump them places. Guards and nearby towns people were made to bury the bodies of uncremated victims once the allies got there. If my memory is right the allies sometime dug up bodies that had been dumped before they arrived to do autopsies.

There is also a Polish census from 1946.

Total: 23,929,737
Polish: 20,520,178
German: 2,288,300
Other: 399,526

And this is from 1931:

Total: 31,915,779
Polish: 21,993,444
Ukrainian: 3,221,975
Ruthenian: 1,219,647
Belarussian: 989,852
Russian: 138,713
Czech: 38,097
Lithuanian: 83,116
German: 740,992
Yiddish: 2,489,034
Hebrew: 243,539
Local: 707,088
Other: 11,119
Not Declared: 39,163

...

mainly working class jews were targetted

they mainly died of typhus and starvation

>nazis wasting money gassing jews in the middle of a two front war
>nazis wasting money shooting jews in the middle of a two front war
>hitler can't tell the difference between working class dumbass jews and rothschild
>hitler seriously believes he is getting rid of a problem by killing working class jews
>people seriously believe middle class jews didn't gtfo at the first sign of trouble
>"well we'll just stay even though we have money to leave and everybody is destroying our businesses"

average jewish family made 3 times what average german family made in weimar germany. these are similar to today's numbers in the USA.

>What number are you referring to?
Every time I read a retard talk about shrinking numbers it's a stormfag making a reference to the auschwitz plaque or imaginary revisions of the auschwitz death toll based on some /pol/ infopic.

It always amazes me how /pol/tards put a couple of half assed rationalizations over mountains of evidence.

You don't feel woke?

>hitler can't tell the difference between working class dumbass jews and rothschild
>hitler seriously believes he is getting rid of a problem by killing working class jews

>If the world of international financial Jewry, both in and outside of Europe, should succeed in plunging the Nations into another world war, the result will not be the Bolshevization of the world and thus a victory for Judaism. The result will be the extermination of the Jewish race in Europe.

And late Goebbels wrote this in his diary:
Regarding the Jewish Question, the Führer has decided to make a clean sweep. He prophesied to the Jews that, if they yet again brought about a world war, they would experience their own annihilation. That was not just a phrase. The world war is here, and the annihilation of the Jews must be the necessary consequence.[4]

xd I have ben redpilled now Hitler did nuthin' wrong, jews did the Holocaust, and joe pedosta fucks kids ina pizza shop. I am su fuckin' based now.

>the Babi Yar massacre was a lie
>bone-grinding machines
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babi_Yar
>The most notorious and the best documented of these massacres took place 29–30 September 1941, wherein 33,771 Jews were killed.
>Victims of other massacres at the site included Soviet prisoners of war, communists, Ukrainian nationalists and Roma.[5][6][7] It is estimated that between 100,000 and 150,000 people were killed at Babi Yar during the German occupation.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderaktion_1005
>Blobel began his work experimenting at Chełmno (Kulmhof). Attempts to use incendiary bombs to destroy exhumed bodies were unsuccessful as the weapons set fire to nearby forests. The most effective way was eventually found to be giant pyres on iron grills. The method involved building alternating layers of corpses and firewood on railway tracks. Afterwards remaining bone fragments could be crushed by pounding with heavy dowels or in a grinding machine and then re-buried in pits.[1] The operation officially began at Sobibór extermination camp. The Leichenkommando exhumed the bodies from mass graves around the camp and then burned them, after which task the workers were executed. The process then moved to Bełżec in November 1942.[2]
>The operation also returned to the scenes of earlier mass killings such as Babi Yar, Ponary, the Ninth Fort,[1] as well as Bronna Góra.[11] By 1944, with Soviet armies advancing, SS-Obergruppenführer Wilhelm Koppe, head of the Reichsgau Wartheland ordered that each of the five districts of General Government territory set up its own Aktion 1005 commando to begin "cleaning" mass graves. The operations were not entirely successful as the advancing Soviet troops reached some of the sites before they could be cleared.
Hmmmmm

What was the purpose of the 3 Einsatzgruppen units (each consisting of 500-1000 members of the SS and Gestapo) during Operation Barbarossa? How were these units different than the Wehrmacht's Security Divisions (Sicherungs-Divisionen) and Guard Units (Landesschützen)?

Why did every defendent in the Nuremberg Trials and subsequent nazi war crime trials almost exclusively use the defense that they were just following orders ("Befehl ist Befehl")? Why didn't anyone deny the crimes they were accused of? Especially something as egregious as the mass murder of millions of people?

What did SS and nazi officials in internal memos mean by the word "Special Treatment" (Sonderbehandlung) regarding jews in their custody?

How could the prisioners at the Bergen-Belsen be starving to death when 3 km away the food stores for the camp contained "600 tons of potatoes, 120 tons of tinned meat, 30 tons of sugar, upwards of 20 tons of powdered milk; cocoa, grain, wheat and other foodstuffs." Why was this food withheld from the starving prisioners?

If the Jews were evacuated "to the East" rather than being exterminated in Poland, what happened to them? Why have so many family members of those "evactuated" never heard from their loved ones again? Wouldn't they try to make some contact in the past 70+ years?

Why were warning posters posted outside of the ghetto in Częstochowa Poland that threatened the death penalty with anyone who 1) Provided shelter to escaped jews 2) Supplied Jews with food or 3) Sold food to Jews ? Why wouldn't they want Jews to recieve outside food?

>Germany has no history of genocidal behavior
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_and_Namaqua_genocide
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanisation_of_Poles_during_the_Partitions
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drang_nach_Osten#Background

>If the world of international financial Jewry, both in and outside of Europe, should succeed in plunging the Nations into another world war, the result will not be the Bolshevization of the world and thus a victory for Judaism. The result will be the extermination of the Jewish race in Europe.

And the damning thing is he referenced and reinforced what he said in 1939, 3 years later to the date

"In my speech before the Reichstag on the first of September 1939, I spoke of two matters: first, since we are forced into war, neither the threat of weapons nor a period of transition shall conquer us; second, if world Jewry launches another war in order to destroy the Aryan nations of Europe, it will not be the Aryan nations that will be destroyed, but the Jews...Once the Germans Jews laughed at my prophecy. I do not know whether they are still laughing, or whether they are laughing on the other side of their faces. I can simply repeat — they will stop laughing altogether, and I will fulfill my prophecy in this field too. "

It's obvious that the Holocaust is the first time most stormniggers have encountered primary sources and have absolutely no idea how to work with them.

This leads to them putting survivors accounts on a pedestal far higher than even the most fanatic Nazi hunter, while simultaneously crafting their own version of "the narrative" based more on cartoon Hollywood villainy than anything in actual history, in order to debunk those same survivors.

God knows why. Maybe they think it'll win people over to their cause. "Gee, this contextless infographic that says there were rumours about boys being masturbated to death sounds sketchy" "You know that means you are a holocaust denier in 683 countries? Here, have more infographics" "WTF I love Hitler now!".

This leads to them demanding the Holocaust be treated as any other historical event, but then REEEEE when the usual methods are used to prove it happened.

Imagine if their burden of proof for the holocaust was the benchmark for all other historical events?

Classic gish gallop.

The truth does not fear investigation.

A statement usually following a series of deliberately altered images or text blocks stripped of all context in order to match a specific agenda.

This.

>le truth no fear de la investigation
Nobody who says this actually cares about investigating anything. As well, the Holocaust is one of the most investigated events in human history.

I sincerely doubt anyone who is critical of the accepted history of the Holocaust is actually interested in truth in any sense of the word.

Even David Irving, who I gladly defend as a matter of free speech, seems on the surface a respectable historian, but when he starts speaking it's pretty clear that he wants to whitewash Hitler.

No

Thing what they rarely don't understand is that many people hate Nazis (or Germans in general) for things beyond Holocaust, crimes committed on their people.

No.

the one and only ''argument'' in favor is that asholes with agendas manipulate numbers all the time, this happens after all wars and genocides, one side adds zeros so the other side reduces the thing by orders of magnitude

so say, someone from one line will claim 400000+ people were killed at some place, emphasising this or that ethnicity or denomination, while the other side will claim thats bullshit and no more than maybe 10000 were actualy executed and the rest just got disentery cause war scarcity and there was never more than 40000 people in there any way and most survived and also they had libraries and day care and a comedy theatre and it was a lovely place and everione was smiling - both claims are assanine and/or statisticaly impossible, and both claims will be either sort of or outright supported by this or that political option

now the fucks that go into these forms of public necrophilia are usualy rather militant and completely identified with some ideological agenda, so it wouldnt be strange if they saw it as their duty to manufacture truths appropriate to the agenda

all this being said the shere size and atrocity of such events sticks with people, and while that is the basic reason someone will always either deny it or make up excuses the population as a whole simply knows it happened, its part of collective memory and stays that way for generations, and regardless of weather people think it was a good thing or a bad thing they simply know it happened, jokes are made about it, stories are shared from generation to generation, the places and the objects used are still there, the bones are still there too

but then you get a population like americans, that didnt actualy experience any of it, never saw it happen, never suffered any of it, has no actual experience of it
so all they have to go on is second or third hand information and official data, so denying it, as retarded as it may seem, may seem to make sense, if youre a stormfaggot

this

in most of europe, outside germany, the holocaust is seen as that thing that the germans also did during the war, that thing when they killed those jews... thats it

so much shit fell down on so many millions of people across the entire continent no one gives two halfs of a fuck about it, not even so far as to even care about denying it or cofirming it or even care about the numbers

>Germany has no history of genocidal behavior.
Kek

The problem is, the 6 million figure became accepted way after WW2 was over. In fact most of the details of the Holocaust became widely known decades after the war. By that time, no one had much of a reason to vilify Nazis or Germany. So the asholes with agendas arguement doesn't really work either.

Another common idea in Holocaust denial is that the Soviets manipulated the criminal scenes, that's why all the extermination camps were on their side.

Sounds convincing unless you know anything about Soviet propaganda. During and after the war they barely ever spoke about the concentration camps the Jews (because 1. Stalin was also quite anti-semitic, 2. as Communists and internationalists they didn't want to emphasize ethnic/religious identities). Instead they talked about Nazi atrocities against the common Soviet people (burning of villages etc.) and tried to frame the war as "bourgois capitalists trying to re-enslave the liberated Soviet workers" etc.

In Eastern Europe most people had no idea what the Holocaust even was before 1989. So why would the USSR go through all that trouble of falsifying tons of evidence of a genocide and then barely even talk publicize it?

>massive levels of jews fleeing germany
>this is somehow supposed to be favourable to the view that the germans weren't actively trying to hurt the jewish population
amazing

I would be inclined to listen to Holocaust Denial theories, if 100% of the people who support them were not antisemitic (i.e.: based as fuck).

There is no such thing as a non-antisemtic Holocaust Denier.

there wasnt realy that much holocaust denial in puplic before 1989 any way

its a heavily postmodern thing, its that logic of being radicaly sceptical about any and all information that comes from either the media or official sources, and treating any statistics as lies

then you have places like yugoslavia where the thing was so heavily overblown, mainly because there the main victims were serbs as opposed to jew which were a realy small minority relative to the whole population, and this was instrumentalised politicaly on every step - at the same time tito did nuffin wrong

then suddenly you can talk shit about the party all you want cause the system collapsed and evrione and their grandma are on and on about the hundrds of thousands killed in forced marches mass executions and labor camps AFTER the war - but off corse the holocaust never happened there, thats all commie propaganda, and the numbers are obviously made up, so that prooves it never happened

then you have places like italy where any and all mention of such shit was seen as being seriously impolite, so its like they chose to forget all the shit fascists did all over so they could also forget what communist guerrilas did in italy so they could forget how they got fucked by germans and bombed to shit by allies and generaly acted like a nation of drunk imbecils, so now italians practicaly dont know what they did, but the things the partisans did to italians in istra are well known and emphasised and off course, overblown by right wing groups - which in turn is negated and denied by right wing groups in slovenia and croatia, which is ironic cause othervise they claim commie partisans were the embodiment of murderous evil hellbent on exterminating their specific ethnicity, specificaly

same thing happens in ukraine and russia about the hladomor, and in bosna now after shit like srebrenica, and the number of people killed under stalin goes up by 20 million every 5 years... its typical

well, if people think you are going to start another war of extinction you'll have a harder time starting another war of extinction in the first place

If I'm honest, I don't buy that the entire Holocaust was a hoax, although I certainly think the numbers are inflated. What I object to is how the jews have used it to get whatever they want.

>muh antisemitism

Good goy

sounds like the local population didn't want them in their country then huh? maybe they shouldve left.

this is the main point. It doesn't matter how many were (((gassed))) or died in the camps. If you want to imprison people for whatever reason, that's up to the laws of your country. Where they crossed the line was imprisoning people from non-occupied territories imo. That's bullshit, and it is not morally defensible. The partisan war in the East is a sticky situation, lines get blurred. Also what the Lithuanians and Latvians did is up to them. Germany can't really be blamed for those massacres. The Germans did kill non-combatants, people not from the Eastern front. How many is up for scrutiny, but you shouldn't be fined/imprisoned for that skepticism, and Israel is not owed anything.

>local population

Germans were not "local population" in Lithuania yet.

never seen those photos before.
The jews didn't start a civil war it was the spartacists who did, because they thought the time was now, jews were overrepresented in top brass of it because they were a larger amount of intelligenstia back before mass urbanisation

>it's a /pol/tard posts retarded propaganda while thinking he's enlightened episode

Actually, the one that makes me smile the most is the "shift the blame" one; it happened, but it only happened because of Allied bombing! Actually, any of the spectrum of "The Jews had it coming" also just make me goggle a bit.

Yes, people just ignore the evidence that doesn't fit their narrative.

there's really none, several of the guys who did it literally were all "yeah we did it so what" at Nuremberg

>several of the guys who did it literally were all "yeah we did it so what" at Nuremberg

After being tortured

>its a newfag believes the same manner of retarded propaganda because it fits his narrative based on a priori assumptions

wew lad

>holocaust deniers "it never happened!"
>later on "fucking jews, we'll holocaust you again!"

>allied bombing
>oh fuck we are losing mateirals to the brits better use our remaining stock to burn some jews

>a wiki link disproves thousands of historians

proofs?
Also eichmann in jerusalem

Veeky Forums wouldn't know a primary source or how to read one if they were taught by Harvard prof

I've literally had to give people a walktrhough on how to properly source documents and tell them why wikipedia isn;t the sum total of knowledge. No Total War vidya and Wikipedia does not make you "well read" nor does posting shitty blogs.

>a blog post disproves thousands of historians

Its pretty famous that the nazis were tortured before the Nuremberg trials, Israelis literally do not shut up about it

b-b-b-b-but nazis were tortured
b-b-b-b-but documents were faked
b-b-b-b-but eye witnesses are part of the conspiracy
b-b-b-b-but forensic studies are fake
b-b-b-b-but photographic evidence is fake
b-b-b-b-but demographic variations are fake
I can believe what I want!

b-b-b-b-but muh hitler was actually a jewish puppet as he let the jews all go to jerusalem and he's a terrible leader so i'll actually suppurt stalin because he killed more jews than hitler and stopped (((degeneracy)))

>literally a list of strawmen

how baka can you get?

>eye witnesses accounts

You really want to go down that road?

I love how the stormfag won't actually cite to evidence of their figures being tortured, despite the fact that now they're the one making a claim.

>Germany has no history of genocidal behavior

This has to be a LARP

It's one thing to be critical of Jews; denying historical facts is another.

>no one counter signals anything else except for one part

Its almost like people skirt around the main issue here for their own political beliefs. Except... only stormfags do this not ... you?

it's almost like gish gallop is fucking tedious

Was interested in hearing the ins and outs of holocaust denial and the rebuttal of these arguments and so on. Thought this thread was what I was looking for but it's just a bunch of people calling each other 'kike' and 'stormfag'.

Right? Any kind of database or list of points is inherently gish gallop because points you disagree with are all weak a priori, and when you can read in your own time that is totally like screeching over your opponent in a live debate, therefore being gish gallop.

go to /r/askhistorians