Was Operation Barbarossa a mistake or success?
Was Operation Barbarossa a mistake or success?
David Thomas
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Jonathan Campbell
Well it certainly wasn't a success. It's not super clear what would have happened without Barbarossa. There's some debate about whether or not Stalin was planning to attack the Germans first, but the evidence is sketchy at best.
Isaac Ortiz
It was neither.
Adam Mitchell
Le bump
Easton Taylor
It was about as successful as Barbarossa himself.
Sebastian Richardson
>Was Operation Barbarossa a mistake or success?
It was a strategic necessity, but obviously a failure.
The situation facing Germany in early/mid 1941 was as follows:
France has been subdued, but will cost manpower to continually occupy, and doesn't provide any large immediate benefits to the war effort.
The assault on Britain has failed disastrously, the RAF inflicted devastating losses on the Luftwaffe in terms of men and planes (especially heavy bombers), but no gain was made
The war in the Atlantic is unwinnable, the RN will never realistically be defeated by the KM
The NA campaign is going better than expected, however Italy has proved entirely incompetent and will likely not play a major part in the war
The Med is a mess, and the RN and RAF are sinking supply ships at an extraordinary rate
Minor theatres (Greece and the Balkans, Scandinavia etc) are just manpower sinks, and provide no real benefit to the war effort
We are running short on raw materials, oil being the main one, and we need to secure supplies not found in our borders necessary for a long term war
Lastly, the USSR, our great ideological enemy, is RAPIDLY increasing its level of industrialisation, and has manpower potential several times ours.
Britain has been driven off the continent, but remains untouchable at sea and air, they are attacking us with raids in Norway and France, and are causing Italy enormous trouble in the Med, while requiring us to split our forces to hold NA. They are committed to a protracted war, and are receiving massive support from the US. As time goes on, they will weaken our spread out forces as they did to Napoleon.
As time goes on, the USSR will surpass us in mechanisation, and they already have a manpower base far larger than our own. We know they will not maintain the peace, as they see us as just as much of a threat and enemy as we see them.
We cannot win a protracted two-front war, we must strike and win a decisive victory, and soon.
What do we do?
Brayden Nelson
The real mistake was not putting the German economy on war footing and launching Typhoon.
Lincoln Lopez
>What do we do?
Fix the economy, woo the occupied territories, consolidate our gains. Send a few divisions to North Africa to roflstomp the Brits, and after rolling through Egypt prop up Arab collaborationist regimes in the Mid East. Now Stalin has a southern front to worry about, so he probably won't be starting any shit.
Noah Williams
>. Send a few divisions to North Africa to roflstomp the Brits, and after rolling through Egypt prop up Arab collaborationist regimes in the Mid East.
New to the thread, but ultimate victory in the ME is pretty much impossible. You simply can't project force far enough in the desert for it to matter. dtic.mil
About the best you can hope for is to hold on as long as you can with as little force as you can to prop up Italy's southern vulnerability.
Jordan Scott
>Fix the economy, woo the occupied territories, consolidate our gains. Send a few divisions to North Africa to roflstomp the Brits, and after rolling through Egypt prop up Arab collaborationist regimes in the Mid East. Now Stalin has a southern front to worry about, so he probably won't be starting any shit.
The problem is, all that might take a few years, and without having to abandon the population dense and relatively developed west USSR, by the time you come to fighting them, they will overmatch you considerably.
Germany is reaching the upper limits of her mobilisation in 1941. If she mobilises more than a few million extra reserves, she will start cutting into her labour force. In 1941, the population of Germany, and all her annexed territories was ~80 million, while the population of the USSR including their annexed territories was ~196 million.
Remember that the emergency war economy of the USSR was still able to massively outproduce Germany, even with most of its traditionally populous and productive areas occupied. Give them a few extra years of peace, and two fronts or no, they will be infinitely more difficult to handle.
Then further, remember that if the USSR is invaded, you will still be fighting a two-front war against Britain (and possibly the US). The potential for Britain to open up a major second front (or third, assuming they keep fighting in Africa and the ME with the massive British Indian Army), is a serious threat to long-term plans.
And finally, keep in mind that if you plan on fighting a two-front war with the USSR, with one of your fronts being in central Asia, your supply lines will be ENORMOUS, in other words, a massive and very easy target for the RAF/RN and Soviet airforce, let alone Communist insurgents (as happened in Poland).
Dylan Watson
>Send a few divisions to North Africa to roflstomp the Brits
No. Just no.
Jaxon Davis
Might have worked if the germans had a bit more intel on russia, and if they'd managed to trap the russian army in their pincers.
Juan White
>Germany is reaching the upper limits of her mobilisation in 1941. If she mobilises more than a few million extra reserves, she will start cutting into her labour force. In 1941, the population of Germany, and all her annexed territories was ~80 million, while the population of the USSR including their annexed territories was ~196 million.
Which is why Germany doing it alone was bound to fail. The European axis powers together had some 170 million, about equal to the Soviet Union in 1939. The Soviet Union picked up some new territories in the following year, but they were about as loyal to the USSR as the occupied territories were to Hitler. Stalin was an extremely cautious man, and after the Finland episode he would not risk an attack on an enemy that matched him in manpower.
>And finally, keep in mind that if you plan on fighting a two-front war with the USSR, with one of your fronts being in central Asia, your supply lines will be ENORMOUS
You don't need to fight. Just establish a few pro-axis regimes to remind Stalin that his oil fields are awfully close to your panzers, and so he best not start some shit.
Colton Scott
>You don't need to fight. Just establish a few pro-axis regimes to remind Stalin that his oil fields are awfully close to your panzers, and so he best not start some shit.
That's implying Germany won the north Africa campaign
Mason Morris
>the european axis powers together had some 170 million
Right, but none of the other european axis powers were anywhere near the germans in terms of effectiveness.
Nathaniel Reed
Italy scored a fee victories
Brody Cook
And a retard can probably quote a single sentence from "Hamlet".
Andrew Baker
>nazi desperation play taking to the streets to gain support
>get arrested and shot at
>oh shit it actually worked, people take us seriously now
>nazi desperation play nagging the president and larping as soldiers in mock parades
>causes riots and a lot of chaos in some places
>oh shit it actually worked, the president appointed our guy fuhrer
>nazi desperation play confiscating private persons property to boost budget
>people are okay with it, because lol jews
>oh shit it actually worked, we can afford public services now
>nazi desperation play taking huge loans to start large public projects
>all the plebs get jobs moving rocks and laying asphalt
>oh shit it actually worked, our economy is bubbling up and looking decent
>nazi desperation play demanding territory from neighboring countries
>britain and france don't want war, they let it happen
>oh shit it actually worked, free clay and we look strong
>nazi desperation play invading france because they can't win a proper war
>frenchies confused a forest for an impassable barrier
>oh shit it actually worked, half of france surrendered just like that
>WE ARE INVINCIBLE, EVERYTHING WE TRY WORKS
>WE CANNOT BE STOPPED WE ARE THE GREATEST
>LETS INVADE THE USSR, WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG
They got lucky a few times in a row and believed their own myth.
Chase Jones
Mussolini specifically said Italy won't be ready for war for another couple of decades. He didn't want to fight.
While Germany captured tanks from Slovakia, Poland, Austria, etc, and rearmed heavily, Italy was buying tractors and laying down train tracks.
Should've stayed neutral, but I guess they felt cheated after Turkey took the land they were promised in the area after WWI, and they weren't given the peace of Austria they wanted.
Evan Fisher
>strawmanning one of the biggest wars in human history
Yeah them germs could never do anything right huh Albert
Jordan Jenkins
Name one thing germans did right, other than scoring penalty shootouts.
Ryan Myers
>your supply lines will be ENORMOUS
In the army of the master race 2/3 of all vehicles is a horse.
Lincoln Ramirez
>scoring penalty shootouts
>beating up your rivals and trying to take revenge for them being totally unreasonable dickheads is scoring penalty shootouts
>recovering from the worse economic nightmare in modern history after Americans and the allies fucked you over with their debased paper dollars and making you pay for something that you did not start is not something to be proud of
>trying to recover your stolen land that the allies randomly cut up for no other reason the to increase their empires and cut you down to size
>implying the soviets had any legitimacy AT ALL to hold their end of the bargain
id really like to see you do a meme post for the brits evacuation at dunkirk
Jeremiah Anderson
Are you okay?
Germany is still not "recovered".
It is still occupied by France, England and the USA. Ironically, only the Russian occupation zone is free, because Germany paid billions of dollars of bribes to the ruskies to fuck off.
Germany is still stuck in the EU jail that France built for it, and it can only have an army or do foreign policy through the EU.
Germany is a slave country still.
Ryder Hall
Are you fucking joking? Of course it was a failure.
Carter Hernandez
>Germany is a slave country still.
Just like most European countrys are to the United States and NATO whats your point?
Luke Green
Barbarossa is what would have happened if Veeky Forums were in charge of a country.
>hurr we are america, let's invade china!
People just got fucking arrogant and underestimated the geography and vastness of our planet and our ancient survival instincts.
>Who needs winter clothes? We are superhuman! (later...): "God damn it's so fucking cold! Why did I never hear about this peculiar phenomenon? I had no idea that cold can feel so fucking painful! In Germany we just tolerate it!"
Elijah Ortiz
>You don't need to fight. Just establish a few pro-axis regimes to remind Stalin that his oil fields are awfully close to your panzers
But he couldn't even do that very successfully, The Hungarians and Romanians were constantly up and arms about their own borders and well Poland didn't exist. This would only leave Finland and Turkey with considerable borders with USSR. From these 2 only Turkey could be considered powerful and even t was really in the gutter when it comes to economy and wanted to stay neutral.
Somehow though they managed to persuade Finland to start a joint-offensive as co-belligerents for lost areas + the rest of Finnic people living in western Russia. But even then the finns just stopped their advances in their pre-war isthmus borders only pushing to get defensive ground in northern Karelia.
This was mostly due to their leader being an ex-tsarist who didn't wan't to participate in the german city-siege of Leningrad. due to being huge Tzar-boo
And even so the soviet's were able to start a massive offensive to force finns to a armistice, granted not with the exact results they hoped for.
Sebastian Fisher
Delays in the invasion of the Soviets and the unexpected resistance of the Brits during the Battle of Britain doomed Barbarossa from the start.
Nicholas Cox
>Delays in the invasion of the Soviets
Another dank meme. Had Barbarossa started on schedule, it would have been an even bigger clusterfuck. Russian roads are a wondrous thing when the spring rains come.
Angel Martinez
>some debate
telegraph.co.uk
Reminder that Stalin was attacked first back in 1938!!
en.wikipedia.org
Lincoln Jenkins
The mistake was designating Moscow as a target for Army Group Center.
AGC should have had the task of pushing towards Moscow only to (1) keep Soviet Armies engaged and (2) provide cover to the flanks of Army Groups North and South.
After the winter the targeting of Moscow could be reevaluated.
Also better preparations for winter warfare and all that.
Cooper Anderson
>Who needs winter clothes? We are superhuman
Funny, Hitler claim to wear shorts at -10°
Therefore the German army would resist the -30° of the russian winter
Christopher Thomas
the good old winter cloth meme
they had cloth the just had no infrastructure to transpprt them AND ammo+food to the front.
you can decide either you starve freeze or you can not fight
Charles Martin
You say create puppet states in the ME, but the distances in NA are as bad as Europe, it is almost 2000 KM from Tripoli to Alexandria, and that's just the start. Then you have to cross the canal and move into the Levant.
Even if all that happens, and you set up functioning puppet states that can supply panzer divisions, you will be attacking the USSR across a huge mountain range., and once you get past that the terrain in the southern Caucasus is not particularly tank-friendly either.
Dominic Edwards
germany as the economic leader of the EU representing the EU, i think
Wyatt Harris
Thank me later.
Aiden Roberts
Not a mistake but not a success either.
Joseph Campbell
Germany owns the EU. Its a massive European control apparatus and currency manipulation scheme. Germanys economy is based on exporting to poorer Euro countries and depending on their poverty to keep the Euro from going too high. If the Euro died, Germany would be screwed.