Was it really genocide or just a famine?

Was it really genocide or just a famine?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=jgGP_evkvOk
youtube.com/watch?v=zKqu93-wGGE
youtube.com/watch?v=lBsHjJ_gK1U
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_major_famines_in_India_during_British_rule
holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com.ar/2012/10/index-of-published-evidence-on.html
historiography-project.com/books/pressac-auschwitz/448.php
historiography-project.com/books/pressac-auschwitz/438.php
historiography-project.com/books/pressac-auschwitz/436.php
twitter.com/NSFWRedditVideo

OY vey six gojillian

These are the countries which think it was genocide.

Why Canada and Australia?

A bit of both. The Ukraine had always been a breadbasket, Soviet policies caused a famine, and further Soviet polices made it worse, but only for Ukrainians.

>countries that hate Russia
>countries that literally exist because of genocide
>Portugal

why would anyone want to be a part of this group

I wonder, do Holocaust deniers who discard every document, forensic study, photograph, testimony, confession and census in favor of the Holocaust as unreliable yet believe the Holodomor believe there is some superior form of evidence for the latter than there is not for the former?

Holocaust deniers are fucked in the head.

The Holocaust is one of the most well documented genocides in human history.

Why do communist lovers like you bring up Le Holocaust meme when the thread is about Holodomor?

Trying to derail the thread?

Why do you trade your mass murders of millions as if you can besmirch the other by "OBJECTIVELY LINKING X GENOCIDE TO YYYYYYY!!!"

PROTIP: We consider you BOTH living scum. You can frolic together in your edgy genocide worship now.

Funny how these random famines just happened to pop up in communist countries right after efforts to collectivize agriculture.

>Denying mass murder is fine when we do it!

Take your autism meds

Russia and Ukraine had a history of famines long before the Bolshceviks overthrew the Tsar.

>hating the murder of millions is now "autistic"

This meme never made any sense but now most of all you really don't make any fucking sense

It was something that needed to happen

The famine of 1891 didn't even come close to hitting seven figures. Continue blaming the Tsar or Russia's natural climate for the millions of deaths though.

You mean before the industrial revolution where agriculture technology was still primitive? No way!

>man-thinking-small.jpg
>1698x1131

this really toasted my oats

So we have ITT

>nazis also did it so it's okay!
>the memelaks deserved it looooooooooooooooooool dead ppl
>it was capitalism's fault anywai
>the tsar killed like half a million with cholera so it's NATURAL

And none of them resulted in millions of people dying. Wow, it looks like collectivized agriculture made the problem 10 times worse than it would have been otherwise! And let's not even get started on Lysenkoism and all the lives that it ruined.

>The Ukraine

I'm a Canadian here and we have a bunch of Ukrainian immigrants from the 1900s. Particular in Saskatchewan where I live. Maybe because our capital city flag looks like the Ukraine flag.

...

What I mean is, if documents, demographic studies, pictures and pretty much all types of evidence for the Holocaust are not sufficient for them to believe such genocide happened, why do they deem those types of evidence to be reliable proof for the Holodomor? Sounds like double standards to me.

Derail what, autist? OP's question makes no sense.

I don't deny either genocide, you fucking idiot.

It was both. How does one preclude the other? You just wanted some (You)'s, didn't you? Pretty dumb post desu

>The Holocaust is one of the most well documented genocides in human history.
And yet it still didn't happen.

reminder that there were no homicidal gas chambers.

Reminder that the crematoriums of Auschwitz could not have possibly have burned as many people as is claimed if they were working nonstop for the entire length of the war, and there is no evidence of mass graves or mass burning of bodies.

What is this showing?

Zyklon B is the chemical insecticide that is claimed was used to kill prisoners in gas chambers.

Zyklon B's express purpose is an insecticide used to fumigate mattresses and clothes to kill lice and flees which spread typhus.

There were severe typhus epidemics in the concentration camps because they were overcapacity and conditions were bad.

The exact same amount of Zyklon B was issued by the Nazi government to Auschwitz, at the height of the period it was claimed they were using it to gas their prisoners, as was issued to Oranienburg, a small concentation camp in Germany which has been proven to never have had homicidal gas chambers (only small ones used for delousing blankets, clothes, and matresses) and no one was ever killed in a gas chamber. Oranienburg was inspected by Allied investigators because it was liberated by the Allies, Auschwitz was not.


Reminder that the myth of 6 million Jewish victims and gas chambers has been spread by the Jewish press since WW1.

Reminder that your pic is retarded, has been refuted, and you are an idiot vomiting stormfag propaganda like a drone.
Reminder that nobody ever denied that zyklon b was also used for delousing, you are "refuting" a straw man.

isn't killing millions through incompetence worse than doing it on purpose?

Kek. Reminder that image is retarded and proves nothing.

Reminder that no gas chamber exists which was used for mass executions.

Reminder that the tiny rooms used for delousing are still stained blue, but the ones which you claim were used night and day to gas millions of jews have no trace of zyklon use, and were merely morgues next to the crematorium.

youtube.com/watch?v=jgGP_evkvOk

youtube.com/watch?v=zKqu93-wGGE

youtube.com/watch?v=lBsHjJ_gK1U

lol this image is hilarious.
The more I read it, the more it just admits the images it tries to debunk are correct, but to ignore the conclusions.
Fucking lol.
Have you ever read this, or do you just post it whenever you get triggered and pretend like you confidently proved your point?

this.

>posts pic with articles mentioning 6 million jews
>IT'S ALL A CONSPIRACY!
>hey, here's a pic with articles mentioning 4,5,7 million
>b-b-b-but it proves nothing
/pol/tards

>Reminder that the tiny rooms used for delousing are still stained blue, but the ones which you claim were used night and day to gas millions of jews have no trace of zyklon use, and were merely morgues next to the crematorium.
False, the forensic studies do show traces of zyklon use (see the krakow forensic institute research). The one that doesn't was performed by a bachelor in arts that didn't know delousing and killing humans takes different concentrations and performed the wrong test. This is how retarded stormfags are.

Depends I guess.

Were they really famines or just genocides?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_major_famines_in_India_during_British_rule

Nice non arguments. Yes, I know anything /pol/tards see confirms their conspiracy.

It doesn't matter that Jews also tried to claim they were victims in other numbers, the point is there is a record of them pushing a baseless and exaggerated number of victims to manufacture outrage and paint themselves as perpetual victims.

>h- he performed the wrong t- test!!
no he didn't. He performed the correct test, because he found traces of zyklon in the delousing chambers and not the alleged homicidal chambers.

Yes it takes less gas to kill humans, but when killing hundreds at a time, continuously, repeatedly for months or years, you would need enough zyklon to actually leave noticable traces

Not to mention the room claimed to be the homicidal gas chamber (really just a morgue) was not airtight enough to be used as a gas chamber, and the Germans would have all gassed themselves if they had tried to use it as such.

Sorry to bust your delusions kiddo. It never happened.

>the point is there is a record of them pushing a baseless and exaggerated number of victims to manufacture outrage and paint themselves as perpetual victims
No, there isn't. There are a number of articles mentioning a variable number of jews were in danger (which is pretty evidently true) or other things related to them. It's funny how you brainwashed idiots can make a claim based on propaganda (>m-m-m-muh magic 6 million number), get instantly refuted, and not even flinch. You don't even care that you were fed lies to repeat.

>no he didn't. He performed the correct test, because he found traces of zyklon in the delousing chambers and not the alleged homicidal chambers.
He did the correct test because you like the result? Great argument, retard. The methodological problems of the report are well known, to the point that negationists have stopped using it (at least the sophisticated or intellectually honest ones).

>Yes it takes less gas to kill humans, but when killing hundreds at a time, continuously, repeatedly for months or years, you would need enough zyklon to actually leave noticable traces
Which it did.

>Not to mention the room claimed to be the homicidal gas chamber (really just a morgue) was not airtight enough to be used as a gas chamber, and the Germans would have all gassed themselves if they had tried to use it as such.
False. In fact there are german documents asking specifically for gas tight doors. You are just repeating retarded propaganda based on the soviet reconstruction of one of the chambers. Once again, a drone.

Nice reddit spacing, faggot. Go back.

>The methodological problems of the report are well known
because I don't like his results

kek. nice confirmation bias, retard.

>Which it did.
Which it didn't

>In fact there are german documents asking specifically for gas tight doors.
No there aren't. Provide the source.

An admixture brought about by a combination of bad crops, mismanagement, and straight up indifference to the problem. The thinking probably goes "well, their starvation is fairly convenient for us, so let's let this state of affairs run its course, no need to rock the boat."

>people are still using this newspaper

The Chicago American was owned by William Randolph Hearst, an American tycoon and pioneer of yellow journalism, who knew Hitler in person and had ties with the Nazi leadership. It was Goebbels and his propaganda machine who coined the "6 million dead Ukrainians" number. The Holodomor as an intentional genocide is literally a Nazi myth made up to victimize Ukraine and justify their "liberation" during Operation Barbarossa. Conquering Ukraine was vital to Hitler's plans for turning Germany into a completely self-sufficient super power.

>because I don't like his results
No, because chemistry says so.

>Which it didn't
Objectively false. See the krakow forensic institute study.

>No there aren't. Provide the source.
holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com.ar/2012/10/index-of-published-evidence-on.html
control + f gas tight
Worth noting is that some of the bibliography with documents asking for gas tight doors is from negationists.

"U kraina" literally means "at the borderland", so the article is fully justified here.

MUUUUUUHHHHHHHHH REDPILLL LOOKA AT ME INFOGRAPHIX LOOOOOOOOL EXPAND UR MIIINNNDD J00s

DID YOU REMEMBER TO PRAISE HITLER TODAY? 1488 LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

>control + f gas tight
>find only orders for doors to the ovens.
You do realize that smoke is a gas correct? And that having a door on an oven which is burning corpses would be preferred to breathing in the smoke right?

Man, you've really proved it this time.

>to the ovens
The gas chambers were inside the crematoriums. Do you think that "“14 showers” and “1 gas tight door” in crematorium 3" means they were asking showers for the ovens? Were they asking for gas tight windows to look at the ovens?

>gas tight windows
dude. are you retarded?

Do you know why people make windows gas tight?
to keep bugs and the wind out.

Are you telling me that these gas chambers had windows in them?
As in windows made of glass?
And these thousands of people just marched into this killing room, let themselves be gasses to death, and nobody broke open the glass window to try and escape?

No, I'm saying that it makes it particularly obvious that they aren't talking about ovens.
Anyway, if you actually look up for the documents in Pressac's work, they are mostly explicitly not for ovens:
historiography-project.com/books/pressac-auschwitz/448.php
It's kind of hilarious how you just found some random bullshit to rationalize being wrong and now you are sticking to it. Seriously, what makes you think they are for ovens? Fucking random shit to convince yourself.

>I don't like this guy because he might have had ties to Nazis so obviously the article is false and the event never happened
>What do you mean you're ignoring this article about the Holocaust because it's written by a jew?!
Commies and Stormfags: Two peas in a pod. Always have been, always will be.

historiography-project.com/books/pressac-auschwitz/438.php

>What do you mean you're ignoring this article about the Holocaust because it's written by a jew?!

Are you illiterate? Did I say anything about jews or the Holocaust?

>Two peas in a pod. Always have been, always will be.
Watch out, we have an enlightened radical centrist here.

He's saying you're using the same logic m8.

you're too young to be here

Yes, and how? I was talking about a publication from a man that literally pioneered the fake news of his generation. You people can't be so retarded.

I'd call it genocide given that it was part of a deliberate program to wipe out a subset of people (kulaks) through starvation. It was doubly useful for the soviet administration because they could use the cash that they got from the grain which they collected (and continued to forcibly collect throughout the famine) to industrialize.

>Seriously, what makes you think they are for ovens? Fucking random shit to convince yourself.

because it says the doors are for the crematorium and that they are 30/40, which either means a very small squarish door if it's centimeters or a giant door aircraft hanger door if it's in meters, you dumb nigger.

and they're ordering 12 doors
Why would they need 12 doors for one gaschamber?

The morgue (which you claim is a gas chamber) only had one entrance/exit. Why would they need 12 doors?

Did you even read Pressac's link?
> Third design: based on the testimony and drawing of S Dragan and the ruins of Krematorium V. This design was adopted for Krematorium V and perhaps also for Krematorium IV. It was imposed by the need to be able to gas small groups of victims and by inadequate Zyklon-B supplies. A fourth gas chamber was created in the western unit by dividing the corridor in two in the proportion 1:2 [visible in the ruins of Krematorium V]. Four gas chambers, each of which had to be gas-tight, required six doors (or seven including the external door of the corridor) with seven openings for pouring Zyklon-B. The ruins of Krematorium IV give no indication as to whether a fourth gas chamber was installed there.
> the gas chamber [Leichenkeller I] of Krematorium II was divided in two in order to be able to “treat” small groups of people unfit for work (in 1944, according to Henryk Tauber). It is not known whether Krematorium III was also modified in this way:
>There remain a number of unclear points regarding the orders for gas-tight doors for Krematorien IV and V. While it would appear that the last “gas doors” were fitted in Krematorium V on 16th and 17th April 1943, i.e. twelve and thirteen days AFTER official acceptance of the building, the orders of l6th June 1943 for iron for fittings for Krematorien IV and V and for fittings for 4 gas-tight doors for Krematorium IV, then on 17th April the order front the Krematorium maintenance service for 4 new doors, again for Krematorium IV cannot he explained in the light of present knowledge. It could be that the first type of door proved unsatisfactory and the SS wanted to make them easier to handle, or stronger, or make other modifications, as had already been done with the gas-tight windows, where two different models were produced.

I'm picturing it now.
>Yes, I need 12 doors for my secret gas chamber with only one entrance
>Yes, even though they are clearly marked as for the crematorium, it is much more logical to jump to the conclusion that these doors are for secret gas chambers, which are for a secret plan to exterminate all the Jews, even though there is no written order to do this anywhere

(continued)
> Order for Krematorium IV, issued during the interior fitting out by Riedel & Son, dated 15th February 1943 [and not 1942 as seems to he written] requesting among other things 210 anchors for fixing the gas-tight doors. Issued one month after the order for four gas-tight doors, two days after that for “12 gasdichten Türen ca 30/40 cm” and thirteen days before these “doors” [windows] were fitted, this note is directly connected with those orders and is good additional evidence in “Gas-” for Krematorium IV.
Those ones are windows.

Holodomor was covered by much more than the Chicago Tribune, but I'm sure you'll find a way to handwave that away too, you tankie fuck.

>It was imposed by the need to be able to gas small groups of victims and by inadequate Zyklon-B supplies.
Ahhh yes. Nothing says a plan to mass murder millions than building an entire gas chamber for "small groups" and "inadequate Zyklon-B supplies"

Come back when you have an actual argument.

Putting "things" in quotes for "no" reason doesn't "actually" do "anything", you know.

come back when you have actual evidence of
>the most well documented genocides in human history.

it does when you're actually quoting things, you moron.

Pressac's work has already been posted as a good example, as well as the holocaustcontroversies index of evidence on auschwitz. In any case, seeing how getting refuted doesn't affect you in any way, I'd say you are a fanatic that doesn't really care about evidence.

Not sure what your "point" is. You'll have to "elaborate" on that.

>unironically using a blog as evidence
What the fuck

It's an index, retard, its platform is completely irrelevant.

>evidence
>12 doors marked "for crematorium"
>not enough to convince me of a massive secret plot to exterminate millions of people.
Man, I don't know how any fanatic could deny such overwhelming evidence.

>unironically using wehraboos as evidence

What the fuck

Yeah, you go ahead and cite a blog in an academic paper. I'm sure your Professor would be thrilled.

...

>Mexico
>hates Russia
?

>dead bodies
>evidence of intent to murder millions
kek

The gas chambers were in the crematoriums, dumbass. The discussion started with you (or some other retard) saying that the chambers didn't have gas tight doors. Now it turns out that they did, so you are objectively wrong and resort to deflect the issue. The fact is that gas tight doors were used in those chambers, and that traces of zyklon b were found.
historiography-project.com/books/pressac-auschwitz/436.php

I'll go into any link of the index that interests me and use the document because I'm not a retard.