Sparta

Sparta literally was war:the state for a very good reason, they had to subdue a slave population many times greater than their own
some stimates go as far to claim that while there where 50.000 spartans living in SParta at its peak, there were 300.000 eilotes (slaves).
You can see why they did what they did.Although in later years came corruption of their system and they became pretty much irrelevant.

>And then you have those fucks that keep talking about how Spartans were gay, even though all textual evidence states the contrary.
Go read up Plutarch's lives, specifically Agesilaus. You can literally see homosexuality on the second page.

> While he was among the so‑called "bands" of boys who were reared together, he had as his p5lover Lysander

Or stuff like this.

>Spithridates also, from the time when he abandoned Pharnabazus and came to Agesilaüs, always accompanied him in his journeys and expeditions. Spithridates had a son, a very beautiful boy, named Megabates, of whom Agesilaüs was ardently enamoured, and a beautiful daughter also, a maiden of marriageable age.

that's right, we were in rome and egypt and greece and shit

>you can't argue that they were a greater threat to Athens and the other city states
yes you can
why do you think Athens allied with the Achaemenids after the Corinthian war

no

They literally sold out greece to Persia to try and win the 2nd peloponessian war (which they started)

>The wide difference between the two characters, the slowness and want of energy of the Spartans as contrasted with the dash and enterprise of their opponents, proved of the greatest service, especially to a maritime empire like Athens. Indeed this was shown by the Syracusans, who were most like the Athenians in character, and also most successful in combating them.-Thucydides.

I guess that explains why the Spartans lost the---

Oh.

Oh, no!

hell yeah brother!
teach these cucks the truth

this is why I will never respect spartaboos
the state they love so much because of its alleged patriotism didn't hesitate a second to sell out in order to win a war they were the aggressor to begin with.

Spartans had way more allies and help and The Athenian citizens also fucked things up multiple times by being dumb as fuck and still almost won with alcibiades before they kicked him out as well.

don't forget the plague
And Alkibiades was a troll.

Wew, lad. Yeah, let's quote the one thing out of context and forget the rest of what's written where he explicitly states physical relationships of any kind were seen as a crime.

>Affectionate regard for boys of good character was permissible, but embracing them was held to be disgraceful, on the ground that the affection was for the body and not for the mind. Any man against whom complaint was made of any disgraceful embracing was deprived of all civic rights for life.

And what is that supposed to show? Like I said, the Spartans won the war, and it did little to harm Athens. Do you imagine it would've been the same if the Medes succeeded in taking Greece from the beginning? Of course not. Spartans were Greeks.

fuck off to r*dditshill

>and it did little to harm Athens
nah man, it prevented Athens from being relevant ever again

umm, proof sweetie?

Spartans were Dorians, it was the Dorians that built the greatest architectural wonders, this is what enamored Rome to the Greeks.

you first

>And what is that supposed to show
That the Persians weren't some boogeyman to the Greeks, but just another political actor. The Greeks were completely willing to work with them on a number of occasions
>the Spartans won the war, and it did little to harm Athens
and the army of Darius paid homage to Delos, what's your point?

/r/the_donald is a colony of ours, i can go there as i please.
you cuck, you cannot!

Saved their ass though after sicilian expedition and prevented the fleet from attacking the council of 400 led Athens.

WE WUZ SPARTANS

you first my man

> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_Wars#Dorian_Greeks_become_dominant_in_Sicily

They litererally were dorians and it's more like

we wuz dorians, since dorians were older then sparta

WE

>spartans are uncivilised and never achieved anyt-
holy shit! btfo!
damn spartans were strong...

No, it was Athens that built the greatest Greek glories, and the Athenians have been there since before there WERE Greeks (they began as a tribe of Pelasgians who adopted Greek Mycenean culture)

>context
>602
This is said to have annoyed Agesilaüs beyond all else. For he was pained at the loss of a gallant man in Spithridates, and with him of a considerable force, and was ashamed to labour under the charge of pettiness and illiberality, from which he was always ambitious to keep not only himself, but also his country, pure and free. 5 And apart from these manifest reasons, he was irritated beyond measure by his love for the boy, which was now instilled into his heart, although when the boy was present he would summon all his resolution and strive mightily to battle against his desires. Indeed, when Megabates once came up and offered to embrace and kiss him he declined his caresses. 6 The boy was mortified at this, and desisted, and afterwards kept his distance when addressing him, whereupon Agesilaüs, distressed now and repentant for having avoided his kiss, pretended to wonder what ailed Megabates that he did not greet him with a kiss. "It is thy fault," the king's companions said; "thou didst not accept, but didst decline the fair one's kiss in feature and trembling; yet even now he might be persuaded to come within range of thy lips; but see that thou dost not again play the coward." 7 Then, after some time spent in silent reflection, Agesilaüs said: "There is no harm in your persuading him; for I think I would more gladly fight that battle of the kiss over again than possess all the gold I have ever seen." Of such a mind was he while Megabates was with him, though when the boy was gone, he was so on fire with love for him that it were hard to say whether, had the boy come back into his presence, he would have had the strength to refuse his kisses.20

Look how disapproving his court is over the practice. Read some fucking sources, you ultranigger.

Alexander wasn't a Spartan

ok
Well he did do that, but he was constantly plotting shit.He was not to be trusted, he attention whored to levels not fathomable, dude was rumored to have fucked dogs in order to gain attention, when he didn't get enough.

>this is the state of Veeky Forums
read a book, cupcake.

The royal house of Macedonia was supposedly descended from Argos not Sparta

germania
germani
german
germany

Really makes you think huh?

>sparta being part of the kingdom
ΠΛΗΝΛΑΚΕΔΑΙΜΟΝΙΩΝ for a reason.

Alexander was leonidas' son
you know, the freaking awesome spartan warrior?

>The Greeks were completely willing to work with them on a number of occasions.

And I take no issue with that. But you would work with an enemy too, if it suited your purposes, even against a family member. That doesn't mean you would sooner be ruled over by an enemy than a family member.

Bad analogy, but you get my point.

And you blame that on the Spartans? Seriously? I can think of many people that had a far worse fate than the Athenians and managed to come back with a vengeance. Maybe the leniency was what got them in the end. Exhaustion and no real motivation to go on. But I wouldn't put that on the Germa--Spartans, I mean.

Alexander was Phillip II's son

umm, no he wasn't honey :)

hook line and sinker.

Well yeah, the athenian state was pretty hedonistic at the time and it had been going up for way too long, it had to fall sometime
But I don't think the fall would be so sudden, if you will, if the war didn't happen.
It wasn't jut the war, it was a combination of war, plague, the 30 tyrants, and general lack of motivation like you said.

>But you would work with an enemy too, if it suited your purposes, even against a family member
My point is that they weren't considered an enemy any more than the Spartans. The Ionian revolt literally started because Aristagoras tried to ingratiate himself with Darius. The Spartans used Persian naval power at the end of the Peloponnesian war and Athens took a lot of money from them in 395

Yet the Parthenon uses the Doric Order.

pic related = Doric influence in Italy.

And what is this supposed to prove? I give you evidence of the practices in Sparta as a whole, and you give me some anecdote about one particular Spartan.

Do you judge nations based on their laws, or based on what one random guy that does?

Think for a second. Employ the brain God gave you.

How was Athens hedonistic.

>Inb4 boylover meme.

And yet why did Dorians never create anything as magnificent as the Parthenon?

Spartans Were somewhat known for diddling boys, it was frowned upon but they were also known for doing it nonetheless.

Every house had shit like pic related in front of it.

I feel the word enemy here isn't very telling. Yes, you could probably argue they weren't considered more of an "enemy." But that doesn't mean them conquering the Hellenes would've been of the same equivalent of Sparta establishing a hegemony.

Cyrene was influenced by Athenian philosophy and way of living.

My point is that Spartans were as much (if not more) of a threat to Athens as the Persians and that there wasn't some inherent hatred of the Persian Empire amongst the Greeks

Firstly google what hedonistic means, secondly that was symbolic.

This is retarded to say. Every society that ever existed had some fag diddling a boy. Fags are everywhere.

That doesn't mean that Sparta as a culture condoned it. They clearly disapproved of it to a greater extent than other city states.

No one is so stupid as to think there weren't any fags in Sparta. That's not the point here.

You don't know much, do you?

> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valle_dei_Templi

All Doric btw

No, you gave "evidence" that they said they disapproved of the practice. You have heard of the term hypocrisy, yes?

I judge people based on what they do, not the ideals they profess, especially when those ideals are flagrantly violated and nobody gives a shit.

Doubly so when you have things like their marriage ceremonies butching up their women as much as possible because spartans aren't used to fucking girls and might think it's icky. And let's not forget the claim made (by you?) in the OP.

> even though all textual evidence states the contrary.
But as soon as some text is cited, you start moving the fucking goalposts, because you're a retard.

so you're syaing greeks were #persianswelcome cucks?
baka, DROPPED
time to worship carthage again, they were truly based

Where is the proof that they actually enforced the laws? We have no way to say that the lover/beloved system wasn't sexual

but Sparta had a REPUTATION for having that particular issue. It was officially condemned but evidently was fairly common.

magna grecia was its own thing pretty much, but whatever

Carthage was literally a Semitic merchant colony trying to destroy stronk Rome by getting North Africans to invade Italy

I should create a tripcode to show the amount of times my arguments end like this.

>but whatever

>as magnificent as the parthenon
You really don't know how to read, so I guess I know more than you

It's called "slander" you dense prick. The Spartan Constitution is very clear that homosex was outlawed, this is the same constitution that the Spartans so slavishly followed to their ultimate demise, if you want to suggest they simply ignored the very clear prohibition against faggotry while making something of a religion out of following all the rest, then you'll need to provide some evidence. And no, the slander of their enemies doesn't count as evidence.

I am not him idiot
That temple is nowhere near the Parthenon's level of mastery
You are too eager to prove everyone wrong.

Carthage means 'nordic' in ancient carthaginian
romans destroyed this to cover up that they were blood brothers
nice try

How about primary sources like Xenophon (A massive fucking spartaboo) Thucydides, or Plutarch. They had a reputation throughout Greece, deserved... that's debatable.

> Valle dei Templi is largest archaeological site in the world

> largest archaeological site in the world

> largest in the world

> world

You judge people based on what they do going by one account of one person that stretches back into the depths of time?

Yeah, sounds legit, man.

I don't move goalposts. Your mind is clearly not meant to think critically. You're assuming that a thing that occurs naturally in every single human population is somehow proof that one society in particular was IN FAVOR of homosexual practices. The two do not add up.

>where is proof that they enforced the laws

This society that's known primarily for being strict as fuck and lawful? I wonder... What a silly argument.

A reputation given to them by whom, exactly? Certainly not people that were friends of Sparta.

>I think I ought to say something also about intimacy with boys, since this matter also has a bearing on education. In other Greek states, for instance among the Boeotians, man and boy live together, like married people; elsewhere, among the Eleians, for example, consent is won by means of favours. Some, on the other hand, entirely forbid suitors to talk with boys.
The customs instituted by Lycurgus were opposed to all of these. If someone, being himself an honest man, admired a boy's soul and tried to make of him an ideal friend without reproach and to associate with him, he approved, and believed in the excellence of this kind of training. But if it was clear that the attraction lay in the boy's outward beauty, he banned the connexion as an abomination; and thus he caused lovers to abstain from boys no less than parents abstain from sexual intercourse with their children and brothers and sisters with each other.

Xenophon, Constitution of the Lacedaimonians

Didn't most ancient civs fugg boys?

Do you imagine that the Gothic cathedrals of Europe were built by or inspired by the Goths? The Spartans didn't invent the doric column, it was just the latest variant on an ancient design that is named (by us) "doric" because of the period when it first showed up, NOT because it was "invented by Dorians".

What's the big deal with spartan men fucking boys anyway it doesn't diminish their accomplishments, its fucking 2017 and it was consensual.

It literally just means "New Town".

>large
>the same as magnificent
READ

The "big deal" is that it's simply not true. I know, fancy caring about truth, afterall this IS the Current Year amirite?

The point is that normie historians talk about it as if it was a thing encouraged by the actual ruling body of the state, which it was not. It's not about homosexuality being good or bad, but about whether or not Sparta is depicted accurately.

It's clear from all the evidence we have that Spartans (whether or not they took it up the bum) did not approve of homosexuality publicly.

>This society that's known primarily for being strict as fuck and lawful? I wonder... What a silly argument.
That's literally based on the reputation that Xenophon, Plutarch and Thucydides gave them. Why do you believe them then but ignore them otherwise?

...

>this is the same constitution that the Spartans so slavishly followed to their ultimate demise
Oh look, the retarded spartaboo once again shows his complete ignorance of history. Remember that one about how they banned coinage, but then started using it as soon as the peloponeasean war turned nasty? Remember how in the agoge system, they encouraged breaking the rules and not getting caught? (You got flogged not for stealing the food, but for not being stealthy enough at getting it). Remember how no archeologists have ever discovered a sussitia? Remember how a king is supposed to be succeeded by the oldest child who was born after he took the throne and how they basically never did that?

What are you trying to say, thicky? Use your words.

wait till he googles his next point

I'm not a spartaboo, but I find your contempt for truth utterly disgusting.

>You judge people based on what they do going by one account of one person that stretches back into the depths of time?
As opposed to a statement of their constitution by a figure that might or might not have actually existed, which also only exists in one account?

>I don't move goalposts.
Yes you did, retard.
>Claim there is no evidence of spartan gayness
>Provide evidence
>Yeah, well, that's just an isolated incident, it doesn't count!

> You're assuming that a thing that occurs naturally in every single human population is somehow proof that one society in particular was IN FAVOR of homosexual practices.
No, that is not what I said or ever implied. Learn to read.

Obviously it wasn't endorsed but it was fairly common, even Xenephon a massive spartaboo had to defend sparta from these allegations and even he admitted there was at the very least an "idealised friendship" (read romantic love) it iosn't hard to see how this could sometimes lead to sexual relations (especially considering how little time they got to spend with wives)

stop arguing about boyfucking

wikipedia is filled with fake pedo article

...

> referential integrity
> using google to search

Use one, and use wisely.

>Why do you believe them then but ignore them otherwise?

I don't ignore them in any way. I've already said that the fact that one Spartan fucked another says nothing to me. I wouldn't even care if they all fucked each other up the ass during training.

I'm sure that it happened, and it may have even happened more frequently than in other places given the segregation of the sexes. But it was still FROWNED UPON AND UNLAWFUL.

Guys in Russian prisons blow each other regularly too, I'm sure, and they have as many fags as we do. Does that mean that Russia is ENCOURAGING homosexuality? ACTIVELY AGAINST IT.

In a rush, gotta leave now, left you this to ponder

>posting links is your own argument

So what you're trying to say is that you're profoundly retarded? Okay, opinion disregarded!