Why are Chinese martial arts bullshit?

It might work against spears n tai chi swords n shit (as it was intended in the crouching tiger days), but MMA is a martial art consisting of the best techniques from various other martial arts. The tai chi guy was a fool to think that water can defeat a rock in a quick battle

MMA is essentially a modern, sanitized pankration.

That's why it is good.

Isn't that Greek oilwrestling or some other homoerotic sport?

>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neijia
If you're just doing Tai Chi, you;re doing exercises.

>homoerotic

Not all of us can be as masculine as a part of the world whose male aesthetics revolve around looking like a twink.

Actually in East Asia, Male Aesthetics involved being strongfat.

>mock westerners for being hairy
>take pride in bumfluff beards that take 40 years to grow

Well Tai Chi obviously isn't a martial art.

I mean, someone who has trained Wing Chun Kung Fu for example would probably do better, but in the end what it really boils down to is much experience you have sparring. And that's actually pretty independent of what kind of martial art you've trained.

My thoughts exactly.

Coming up: Mexican chainsaw druglord vs. an old granny doing morning exercises

He was chatting shit about MMA on the internet prior to the fight.

Chinese martial arts are mostly modern inventions, although some (not many) can vaguely be traced back to legitimate warrior training. They are a response to an Asian feeling of inferiority during the colonial era, where for reasons of nationalism and ethnocentric pride, they 'discovered' these secret invincible arts that proved Asian's superiority over the foreign white devil ("but please don't use them, they are ancient secret techniques" *wink* and "oh you say you used them and got destroyed? well they're actually about the mind not fighting, so you need to meditate for another decade until they are invincible arts for you" *wink*).

I agree. MMA cucks are fucking obnoxious.

but most of Kung Fu is bullshit aswell
Most Asian marital arts are bullshit period

It really isn't if it is applied to actual sparring and combat, like Bruce Lee did.

but it isn't
and bruce lee tried to revolutionize the traditional chinese marital arts. he invented sort of mma light

The only Asian martial arts I can think of worth a damn are judo and like one or two styles of karate, desu. I guess muay thai and sanda/san shou but those are as removed as possible from the 'traditional' sphere.

The best Bruce Lee ever accomplished was jeet kun do, and for anyone interested look up how many jeet kun do guys actually compete and win anything that means anything.

Protip: you probably won't find any.

Sure, but a lot of what he taught, like straight lead kicks and strikes are adapted from Wing Chun.

You'll never see a Western boxer strike in a straight line perpendicular to his body.

>You'll never see a Western boxer strike in a straight line perpendicular to his body.

BECAUSE IT'S FUCKING SHIT, RETARD.

You also will never see a wing chunner beat a boxer.

Karate/Muay Thai/Sanda & Sanshou are basically kickboxing.

It's basically why prior the romanticizing of Eastern Martial Arts, you had westerners gathering around Lei Tai martial arts tournaments and going "well this is literally just boxing with some kicking involved."

It really isn't shit though. But like I said, real fighting is mostly about experience and less about autistic systems and styles.

there is basically only one way of effective fighting (MMA).
If you forbid striking, you get boxing, if your forbid wrestling, you get a boxing.
So all effective marital arts will naturally look similar

He took something from European fencing if I remember correctly, among other sources.

for boxing, i agree
for wrestling (especially on ground), i would argue there are a lot of positions and submission moves one has to memorize

If that were true, then guys from all backgrounds would compete and win. The problem is, they don't. Guys from traditional backgrounds get fucking wrecked every. single. time.

That's literally what I'm saying you fucking retard.

>So all effective marital arts will naturally look similar
Plus there's really so much you can move a human body to begin with.

No you're not, shit for brains. You're arguing that a wing chun nigger could hold their own in the ring which has literally never happened. Quit being a bitch for getting called out on your retardation.

Asian martial arts are quite old. The Wuxxia tales are quite old and martial arts in general found their way into China, via India, long before the colonial era.

A Wing Chun nigger wouldn't beat Anderson Silva, but they'd certainly beat the shit out of you.

No, no! I have a double blackbelt in bitch-stomping. You're fuckin' dead, kiddo.

>newfags not knowing about Hadouken

The double whammy of the Century of Humiliation and the Cultural Revolution.

>tfw I now want a bearded, burly East Asian daddy to fuck me

can you expand on this?

Don't you think it is a crying shame we can't have discussions like this anymore on /asp/? I remember the old days, may laughs where had before rassling blew the place to shit.

Oh absolutely, mandrama fags ruined the board.

Chinese martial arts are not bullshit, its just that over time people no longer train them for fighting but as a type of cultural preservation.

Even back in the sixties in Taiwan, challenge matches between kung fu guys were common. When Wang Shu Jin moved to Japan he excepted challenges from a variety of disciplines and won. The marital arts researcher like Robert Smith and Donn Dreager, both Judoka praised him.

The degradation isn't universal of course.There are "Traditional" marital artists with experience in sanshou and wrestling. There is also push hands but thats more a test of stability than fighting, though some rules sets involve a certain level of grappling. But overall yeah, the traditional forms have become exercise with little application beside push hands, but they dont have to be that way, and they were not that way in the good ole days

remember joe rogan talking about this a while back and saying most martial arts shit like that all comes in after the 70s and all those kung fu films and is basically spiritual bullshit snake oil. People are only drawn to it in the first place for the mystical spiritualism of the orient or whatever vs athletic chads doing MMA for the express purpose of beating the shit out of people in a fighting competition. Its almost like saying "hey who would win between a marine combat veteran and this guy who really likes paintball?"

for all its preaching about spirituality, every kung fu master or whatever I have ever seen is some arrogant chode asshole who runs a McDojo as some sort of pseudo-cult. Some arrogant fat middle aged loser who thinks hes a badass because he has a room of 12 years old bow and refer to him as master.

Sometimes a society has so many layers upon layers upon layers most of them become superfluous and the inhabitants itself forget how things actually work without the needless regulations they follow.

Now someone needs to issue challenges to those cultural peddlers who prop up Chinese delusion in the realm of philosophy and politics (Daniel Bell, Alistair Macintyre, etc.)

Agree with this guy (), but waiting for some based redpilling coming from your side.

MMA fighters are inherently the most adaptable fighters in the world because of the nature of MMA. You've got boxers and wrestlers fighting Taekwondo and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

Legit Chinese martial arts forms do exists, but it's basically ching chong kickboxing, or ching chong wrestling. They probably never rose to prominence, because it's not as cool as 'White Dragon Celestial King Death Punch Form'.

>They probably never rose to prominence, because it's not as cool as 'White Dragon Celestial King Death Punch Form'.
They actually were what most asians thought of as martial arts until the commies banned everything.
There are colonial period accounts (mostly british that I know of) of martial arts tournaments in China, they're literally described as "boxing with peculiar accoutrements".

Personally I dont think this guy is very good at tai chi.

Before you accuse me of "that's not real tai chi" look at this, the guy is supposedly "founder" of his own style, here is the west that is often a red flag for bullshido, same in asia.One is not a "master" of Tai chi until a senior teacher makes you one. Starting your own style either means you have this, or you think your big and tough enough to set out on your own. Clearly this guy isn't the latter and I have doubts he is the former.

Ive also seen Tai chi guys grappling, before, Maybe it was the addition of punches but they are not so rigid, and they do not constantly back petal, weight on their heels.

Are there any videos of this guy doing regular old push hands?
I would never go to a tai chi guy to learn how to fight when there are good kickboxing and grappling schools in every city, but I would go to a tai chi guy who shows superior stability and power generation in push hands, because that can be applied to normal grappling and striking.

>Were they always bullshit and useless in a real fight...

Any "fighting" art that doesn't use live sparring with resisting partners is 100% garbage against those that do.

thanks for the kek user

Oh boo hoo.

That fucking "tai chi" faggot is one of thousands of assholes that extort millions of dollars out of naive people that believe they are being taught how to defend themselves. Fuck that guy, and every bullshit snake oil "martial artist" like him.

>Bruce Lee invented the shitty arm punch

Nope.

Boxers don't punch that way because there's no power in it. That's the way children punch before they're taught how to punch by somebody that knows what the fuck they're doing.

>Tai Chi is a fucking exercise discipline

that's what you think. It is not only good for exercise you know. But only if you're Han ofc.

MMA is for faggots because they don't understand their own contradictions.

They complain traditional martial arts have too many "rules" making the fight unrealistic, which leads to stupid fights like in this video. MMA claims to be the "most effective" and only seek the best way to beat someone.

Well that's bullshit because the best way to beat someone would be a gun.

From that, you have to realise any martial art can't take "reality" has a premise because no amount of training will have you dodge bullets so the only real goal is about sport, not real fights. So why doing an ugly and ungraceful sport like MMA when you can use traditional kung-fu ? Kung-fu was ALWAYS a philosophy more than an martial art, do you think people in the past didn't know the best way to beat a guy ? Kung-fu isn't about that.

*has knife*

now what?

no

yes

*kicks you extremely hard in chest and runs away*

t. butthurt traditional martial arts practitioner

What do you do if you're unarmed and someone attacks you without a weapon? MMA will allow you to defend yourself in a real fight whereas Kung Fu won't do you much good. I hate the whole TMA argument of "well it's not supposed to beat someone up". That's a defeatist statement that just lets us know that you can't justify the hours you put into your garbage martial art.

*unsheathes gun*
heh...your move amigo

It's not really a ''martial'' art if its nature is not combative, is it?

*teleports behind you*

MASAKA

>What do you do if you're unarmed
I buy a gun
> and someone attacks you without a weapon?
I tell the police on him
> MMA will allow you to defend yourself in a real fight
It's not a "real" fight. You can "beat" MMA by the most basic things like "grab him and put your fingers in his eyes". You don't need a martial ART for this, you don't need codes, moves and rules, you just need to be strong and know how to hurt.

MMA is a contradiction, that's it. Why do you think, if that's so great, soldiers never learn a single martial art ? They train to be tought, to have stamina, to be effective with a weapon but not martial art, even MMA. It's useless in reality.

>there's no power in it
A straight punch like that can have a lot of power, it's just not generated the same way power is in modern boxing. Instead of using your hips, you basically use your legs to generate power; if you try something that looks like it without knowing how it actually works, yeah, it's going to be shitty. I've shown punches like that to a few of my MMA friends (I did heavily Chinese-influenced Kempo as a kid before getting into grappling later on), and they've all been impressed.

I think the most important point to make about MMA is that is rule set. It's not really a separate martial art, it's more about training to succeed according to a set of competition rules. In that way, it's not that different from most other arts that also train according to a rule set. What makes MMA stand out is that its rules cover more territory than most other arts, which means you learn things that are more applicable. But the same thing can also be achieved through cross-training effective arts.

>telling the police after you've had the shit beat out of you when it could have all been avoided if you were trained

>It's not a "real" fight. You can "beat" MMA by the most basic things like "grab him and put your fingers in his eyes"

If an untrained moron like yourself can poke eyes what do you think someone with MMA training can do? The whole "just fight dirty" argument is retarded because people with actual training can implement that while fighting dirty. It's also not as simple as just poking someone in the eyes or just kicking them in the balls.

Soldiers do learn hand to hand combat but they don't need it comprehensively because they're armed and the likelihood of hand to hand combat is less likely.

But do you need MMA to fight ? Do you think MMA will add anything to real effective hand to hand combat ? I'm not talking about training here, anyone can train, i'm talking about MMA rules and moves.

It's like have a straight punch doing 100 damage and then a faggot comes out and teach you how doing a backflip while punching in a curb line with three fingers out and wearing a pink tutu will make you able to do 99 damage. Why the fuck would you listen to him. That's MMA.

>I buy a gun
"Excuse me mr. violent assailant, could you please wait for me to just go and buy a gun? It will only take a few days for checks and shit."
>I tell the police on him
"Excuse me mr. violent assailant, could you please wait for the police to arrive and apprehend you?"
>It's not a "real" fight. You can "beat" MMA by the most basic things like "grab him and put your fingers in his eyes".
Top fucking kek. Thank you for confirming to us all that you don't have the slightest clue on the subject.
>You don't need a martial ART for this, you don't need codes, moves and rules, you just need to be strong and know how to hurt.
"Excuse me mr. violent assailant, pls avoid hitting me while I awkwardly try to grab you while you violently attack me and try to aim my vulnerable fingers to a small and very easily defendable target on your body"
>MMA is a contradiction, that's it. Why do you think, if that's so great, soldiers never learn a single martial art ? They train to be tought, to have stamina, to be effective with a weapon but not martial art, even MMA. It's useless in reality.
All soldiers and even most policemen are trained in hand to hand combat you fool. Granted most are rank amateurs, but then most soldiers are also rank amateurs at marksmanship. So unless you want to imply that soldiers don't need guns...

To be honest, that's martial arts in general. MMA is the second guy coming, listening to the faggots and then saying "hey, I think we only need to have two fingers out and I'm not sure about the tutu color".

>Incidentally, it turns out that the MMA guy in the video is now in hiding, fearing for his life because of death threats from Chinese nationalists.

I believe it, the traditional martial arts in china function as cults and are often connected to organized crime

>All soldiers and even most policemen are trained in hand to hand combat
Yes. Not in any coded martial art. Not in MMA. Just hand to hand combat with basics like how to pull your weigh in your punches. Fancy techniques and rules are useless.

These traditional martial arts 'masters' are propped up by the communist government.
This is such an embarrassment that the communists have decided to ruin the MMA guy's life(destroying his business, suspending his social media etc.)
I actually wonder whether original martial arts survived the chinese civil war, as this guy is a communist tool and the lign to the past might be broken an all this a communist reconstruction

>The whole "just fight dirty" argument is retarded because people with actual training can implement that while fighting dirty.
No, the fight dirty argument is retarded because fighting dirty is just stupid. Poking someone in the eye or hitting someone's balls straight on is just as likely as landing a fucking haymaker on a prepared opponent, aka it doesn't happen anywhere near often enough to warrant trying in most situations.

>communist
you keep using that word

I'm the only one itt, don't forget that this IS the people's republic, and they want to keep the 'myth' of martial arts in tact, it's one of china's biggest cultural exports

>Not in any coded martial art.
Uh yeah in coded martial arts. Not stupid shit like wing chun or assorted mcdojo fodder, but still.
Most police forces train judo or sambo for example. US marines train MCMAP which is based on boxing, wrestling, savate and fencing.

youtube.com/watch?v=BT5stC-SBF0

This is a police combatives group called shiv works. They work out of a bbj gym. The guy who runs it, Kit Leblanc as far as I know, teaches BJJ but also as an appreciation of classical Japanese weapon arts, particularly battlefield grappling. He actually said he left classical grappling because it trained him to kill the downed guy which for a police officer is the opposite of what you want to do.

that said they are mostly reworking bjj for situations with weapons.

>Why the fuck would you listen to him. That's MMA.
DESU, your example sounds a lot more like what a Kung Fu or Karate guy would tell you to do. MMA is mostly about simplifying things and doing what's effective. Kung Fu is notorious for including lots of unnecessary flowery bullshit, and Karate's main form of training is essentially dance choreography.

>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Corps_Martial_Arts_Program#Techniques

MCMAP draws influences from several disciplines including Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Wrestling, Boxing, Savate, Jujutsu, Judo, Sambo, Krav Maga, Isshin-Ryu Karate, Aikido, Muay Thai, Eskrima, Hapkido, Taekwondo, Kung Fu, Sayoc Kali, and Kickboxing.[9]

>literally never happened

try again kiddo

youtube.com/watch?v=AQtJMIvnANQ

>Old man gets jumped by young muscular MMA fighter
THIS PROVES MARTIAL ARTS MUST BE USELESS

Worse than samurai vs knight debates.

We're already digging a lottle deeper than that here though

Heres a kickboxer against wing chun

youtube.com/watch?v=qM0zbMCLiC4

holds his own very well

>THIS PROVES MARTIAL ARTS MUST BE USELESS
It kinda does in a way. Afterall the debate is basically 'fitness, sparring and everything that works goes' vs 'listen to my centuries of wisdom and inflexible traditional method'. Both fighters are quite representative of the respective mindsets.

>described as "boxing with peculiar accoutrements".
Classical pugilism (historical bare knuckle boxing) actually has a surprising amount in common with several kinds of Kung Fu. A lot of the punches, footwork, and even the vertical fist punch are pretty much the same. But boxing ended up being seen as more effective at the time (reports of fighters during the boxer rebellion aren't very complimentary) because their training methods weren't as good. A lot of the things people think of as key and distinctive parts of modern boxing actually only happened after gloves and modern rulesets were introduced.

>kickboxer
>long trousers
LOW KICK IS LOVE
LOW KICK IS LIFE
BAN AMERICAN KICKBOXING

The whole thread is wrong and talking shit.

Martial arts aren't some magic secret technique you unlock which makes you the best fighter ever who can defeat anyone. They teach you a series of convenient and helpful moves you learn by muscle memory which you can do in a fight in a particular situation to perhaps give you the edge, say you're stuck in a lock, there's a Judo move you can do to get out of that.

But that's about it, in the end it still entirely comes down to the individual fighters, their strength, reactions, reflexes and flexibility, that's what physical fights always come down to, Martial arts and all training is purely rehearsal so that you can react a little quicker in a situation with less though, it's like learning parachute procedure or reloading a musket.

The MMA guy is a better fighter, that's why he won, I'd bet money if they had swapped practices, that man would have still won.

Thats a rather narrow view of both, and one does not preclude the other .

Yeah, but Bruce Lee really paved the way for modern MMA to be as popular as it is.

He was the original, "style is bullshit, you're all pretentious cunts who need to lift more and only use what works" martial arts guy. For a manlet Bruce Lee was jacked and in phenomenally good shape, and a lot of the telegraphing that he did on camera was in the interest of making a more visually interesting movie, and not indicative of how he actually would have used it to defend himself.

Even if Jeet Kun Do wasn't the answer, he at least asked the right questions about martial arts

>convenient and helpful moves you learn by muscle memory
But see, that the whole point of the argument. People here are arguing that traditional eastern martial arts don't actually teach you convenient moves, and the training methods don't actually instill muscle memory because no real sparring.
If the MMA guys had 'practiced' like wing chun he most likely wouldn't be half as prestant anyway.

Sparring tends to hardwire reactions quicker, on the other hand, unless you have drilled something there are limits to what you can pull off in sparring