Does Stalin even qualify as a bad guy?

Stalin greatly aided the rise of Hitler and the Nazis, in both a political and military sense. In the early 30s, at a time when the NSDAP was gaining ground in elections Stalin ordered via the Comintern for the German communist party not to collaborate with non-communist left-wing parties like the Social Democrats. This prevented the prospect of a leftist coalition obstructing Hitler's rise to the position of Chancellor.

Then, in the spring of 1941, at a time when his generals and spies were providing him with information of an imminent German attack, Stalin refused to believe it, retaining his dogmatic conviction that Hitler would invade Britain before turning against the USSR. Such was Stalin's determination to avoid antagonizing Hitler he went as far as to throw some of those who earned him of a German attack into the gulags, and did not set up appropriate defences along the Russo-German border. It was this carelessness and lack of preparation that enabled the Germans to advance as far as they did, as well as the incompetence of the Soviet generals, which was the result of Stalin's purges. So yeah, although he defeated the Germans, he made it much harder himself, and for the Russian people.

Lebensraum doesn't allow for peaceful co-existence. Millions of Russians would have killed in order to free up room for German colonies. We're talking death tolls in the double-digit millions.

acceptable

nordic aryans > slavs

but they are both white

Nobody ever claimed that Stalin was a perfect leader, but he was a least good enough to save his country from complete extermination at the hands of a merciless foe. That certainly deserves some credit.

but... we do. we have mountains of evidence. what they did to the austrians for Heydrich, total cleansing of villages, which we have proof of, that sort of total industrial genocide was applied across Poland and the USSR. we have proof of what they did to captured POWs. we have proof that they destroyed historic Warsaw and St. Petersburg. we know that the hatred between two incompatible cults of personality led to operational mistakes at Stalingrad.

"we have no proof" only if your research is limited by what you find on /pol/

> throwing your "true" white men in the grinder in a hopeless, unwinnable, 2-front war and Britain+USA
> just so you could kill a lot of "not just as white but still white sort of" people
> killing off nationalism and native european culture for good and continuing the timeline to the present
> "acceptable"

can anyone explain to me why do so many people hate the jews?
what is the reason for it?
is it simply conspiracy theories or is there something else?

My school teachers simply said me hitler hated the jews because it was an easy scapegoat and a lucrative political option, but i find this explanation shit

redpill me guys

>Germany was terrified of what they were trying to bring

Not just Germany, the whole world was. It's politically incorrect to point out now, but communism and bolshevism were inherently Jewish movements. From the front to the top to the bottom.

In the 1930's, anti-Semitism was popular and uncontroversial. There was no social stigma attached to begin an anti-Semite until Hitler went full-retard with it and did something so utterly revolting that many countries started actually passing laws to protect Jews from persecution.

isn't this sort of passive aggressive glorifying of nazidom precisely the problem?

op btfo

Don't get me wrong, the USSR under Stalin's leadership did many truly awful things that are impossible to justify. But having said that, it is still wrong to view Stalin as some sort of evil cartoon villain who never did anything right.

>Lebensraum doesn't allow for peaceful co-existence.

Of course, the population would be resettled elsewhere. It goes without saying that most of the green area on your map wasn't planned to be colonized by Germans.

>Millions of Russians would have killed in order to free up room for German colonies. We're talking death tolls in the double-digit millions.

There were no genocide plans.

>Judeo-Bolshevism
My second favourite thing, after White Genocide.

jewish commies tried a revolution in bavaria and used machine guns in streets or something

>what they did to the austrians for Heydrich, total cleansing of villages
you mean the Czechs, and this had nothing to do with genocide. It was a sort of reprisal that also happened in France, Greece, etc.

>total industrial genocide was applied across Poland and the USSR.

yes, against Jews (and Gypsies to a lesser extent).

>we have proof of what they did to captured POWs

There's actually no proof that the POWs were deliberately killed (except for Jews, commissars and some other groups), the evidence rather points at the other direction.

And against Polish intelligentsia. Polish schools were also closed, Polish people kidnapped, Poles from territories annexed by the Reich were deported.

Poland as a country essentially stopped existing. And according to Himmler the very concept of Polish identity should be erased in the next 20 years. Same with Ukrainians and Belorussians.

Stalin DOESN'T have a higher bodycount than Hitler. The highest accepted estimates for his death toll (20 million) are roughly equal to the lower estimates of allied civilian dead. Factor in the millions of allied soldiers, and the Germans whose death warrant Hitler signed by invading all of Europe, and we see that Hitler is responsible for many more dead. In half as many years as Stalin, too!

3 million Soviet prisoners were starved to death in Nazi concentration camps.

>There's actually no proof that the POWs were deliberately killed (except for Jews, commissars and some other groups)

You yourself just listed three examples of Soviet POW's being deliberately killed. And the ones that weren't killed immediately were subjected to forced labor and inhuman conditions.

Regardless of his beliefs (which were in fact communism, no matter how much commies want to sperg out and say otherwise) his function was that of a bourgeois revolutionary.

i.e. industrialised the nation and dragged it into modernity. Generally this takes a lot of bloodshed.

All of Germany was starving at that time you dumb nigger. It wasn't done on purpose.

>Putting somebody in a prison camp and denying them food is an accident

>putting someone in a prison camp and running out of food was intentional

nope. for one soviet POWs were starving en masse as soon as the eastern front opened. second, while at the end of the war the food supply in germany was strained, they still had effectively rationed food for the civilian population so that no one starved. Hitler took special concern to make sure this didn't happen because he believed that a disgruntled populace (and jewish meddling) caused germany to lose WWI

That's not true, no. Stalin doesn't have any Jewish ancestry and was pretty shitty for Soviet Jews.

Why are you deliberately lying? Soviet casualties were much higher than Western PoWs. 57% death rate is not normal, even Gulags were less deadly.

And it certainly was. There is a very clear difference in the way that Soviet POW's were treated in comparison to how American or British POW's were treated by the Germans. Soviet POW's were being deliberated worked to exhaustion and starved to death. In Nazi ideology, Russians were on the same level as Jews, vermin to exterminated, nothing more, nothing less.

Could it be Stalin's plan was to send an endless amount of people to the eastern front (or western in his perspective) until he could bulge into German territory? Say it wasn't so. The casualties are a result of Stalin's idiotic plan, not because of how POWs were treated.

>feeding civilians before prisoners of war is a crime

>Soviet POW's were being deliberated worked to exhaustion and starved to death. In Nazi ideology, Bolsheviks were on the same level as Jews, vermin to exterminated, nothing more, nothing less.

Fix'd that for you

No. Soviet POWs were captured mostly at the start of German invasion.

It actually is. If you have a group of people imprisoned, then you are absolutely responsible for providing humane treatment. If you are unable to do this, then you are required to release the prisoners.

>Critical Theory logic

>feeding your own people than people who were imprisoned for killing your people is a crime

Marxist logic

>Soviet POW's were being deliberated worked to exhaustion and starved to death. In Nazi ideology, Russians were on the same level as Jews, vermin to exterminated, nothing more, nothing less.

Yes of course it had to do with "Le evil Nazi ideology" and not because what the communist did in Holodomor (which by the way the Germans liberated)

>Holodomor
You mean the famine which struck the whole of the USSR?

Th nazis were welcomed as liberators by many in the USSR. Was watching a documentary the other day with footage of Ukrainian women giving flowers to the Nazis because their lives were so terrible before their arrival. Hitler was right about the Jewish commies and Stalin was a piece of shit

One right doesn't right a wrong, OP. I think the Russians should thank Stalin for crushing Hitler's tiny dick into a fine paste, but curse him for bringing toils upon his people (now whether or not that toil was better in the long run is another question entirely).

Okay that's bullshit. Yes in some baltic countries and western Ruthenia, the germans were greeted warmly. The Ruthenians still vividly remembered the Holdomor, and the Baltics had only recently been taken over. But that tiny support quickly evaporated once the Nazis started fucking everyone up. Get your Nac Soc propaganda out of here.

It's actually in the Geneva conventions, which Germany was party to. Don't sign treaties if you don't intend to follow them.

Yes, it had everything to do with Nazi ideology. The idea that Hitler cared about Holodomor in the slightest is silly, because he was planning a much larger famine that would kill off most of the Soviet population. The deliberate starvation of Ukraine by the USSR will forever be one of history's greatest crimes, but it would have been surpassed by several magnitudes if Operation Barbarossa had succeeded.

This is actually true. However, all that goodwill quickly evaporated once it became clear that the Nazis were there to exterminate, not liberate.

Are stormfags pathological liars?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor_genocide_question

the tactics they use online reminds me of creationists actually.

They falsely believed that the Nazis will liberate them from the Soviet rule. In 1939 Western Ukrainians also welcomed the Red Army happy they were liberated from Polish "oppression". Many Ukrainians that joined the Nazis never even experienced holodomor.

You do realize that there was a food shortage in Germany before Germany had attacked the Soviets right?

As 1940 drew to a close, the situation for many of Europe's 525 million people was dire. With the food supply reduced by 15% by the blockade and another 15% by poor harvests, starvation and diseases such as influenza, pneumonia, tuberculosis, typhus and cholera was a threat. Former president Herbert Hoover, who had done much to alleviate the hunger of European children during World War I, wrote:

The food situation in the present war is already more desperate than at the same stage in the [First] World War. ... If this war is long continued, there is but one implacable end... the greatest famine in history.

Germany hadn't attacked the Soviets until 1941. You fucking commieboos from leddit and leftypol are truly a scourge. Go starve yourself to death.

Stalin was probably the greatest man who ever lived. A son of a shoemaker literally became the most powerful man in the world. Extremely well read and intelligent. Massively industrialized his country, turning it from a feudal shithole into a superpower. Saved millions of lives and the entire Slavic race, and he wasnt even Slavic. Still loved by tens of millons in the former Soviet Union. Somehow still hated by both nazis and ((())) 70 years after his murder (google Doctors Plot)

More leftypol shitposting

>his leadership saved his country from being overrun by the most terrifying, most genocidal regime in human history
Communists?

Why only 2% of Western POWs died in German camps and 57% of Soviet POWs?

>implying white nationalists don't consider the Kaiser one of the worst people in history
Do you even 1488?

Explain this: why would Jews, who were mostly merchants and shopkeepers at the time, support violent anti capitalism? You're a literal cretin. I would hate to see how you look like irl

If it was so terrible, then Hitler should have surrender and spared his people 5 years of death and destruction. Refraining from invading the USSR also would have been a smart move. It is quite true that German civilians suffered at lot during WW2, but that was because of the stupidity and careless of their own government at the time, which chose to drag the entire country into an unwinnable war. If Hitler had simply refrained from invading other countries, all that pain and suffering would have avoided. But with all that being said, none of that compares with the horrors that Soviet civilians had to endure during the war. Entire towns were massacred by the Einsatzgruppen. The Soviets didn't even have the option to surrender, because they were facing a genocidal foe that would have killed them all to the very last man.

Not him but because of industrialization and factories you jackass. You think the merchants of those shopkeepers sold product that was made from thin air?

Wtf I hate Stalin now

Utterly retarded. Why would a private storeowner support state-run factories?

We live in a unique period in human history where Jews aren't run out. They've been hated longer than the Roman Empire existed.

Complaints have always been the same. Rootless cheap promoters of degeneracy and subverted of culture that act as parasites on their host and move on somewhere else after its destroyed.

Also even though the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is fake, it's also been scarily accurate in predicting history so far.

So Jews supported the government expropriation of their own usurous banks and businesses....... because of factories...... ._. Please dont have children

Except you are wrong. Jews weren't accused of promoting degeneracy and subverting cultures until 19th century. Before that they were accused of bloody sacrifices, coin debasement or working with enemies.

The Greeks disagree.

Source?

Fuck off with your Jewish "logic", shill. Rational thought and logic is just another Jewish hoax

>Except you are wrong. Jews weren't accused of promoting degeneracy and subverting cultures until 19th century.

Except you're wrong.

Why even ask for a source? If he does give a source, it will just be from some kooky right-wing website.

Metropolis is from 1920s.

His point is people continued to falsely accuse them after the 19th century.

This is what I said.

Stalin could have done to Germans what they did to the Soviets after the end of the war, but he didn't.

Okay, I looked up the quote from Herbert Hoover, and it appears that he visited Germany AFTER the war and that is the most likely origin for the quote in question. In other words, he said that in 1947, not 1940.

Not concentration camps, but POW camps. They were not intentionally starved.

They were starved and killed by the Nazis. The first gassing was tried on Soviet POWs.

They were most definitely starved intentionally. There is no question about it. This is obvious when you considered the conditions afforded to British or American POW's and compare them with the Hellish conditions that Soviet POW's were put through. And by the way, there is no clause in the Geneva conventions that says you are exempt from providing prisoners with humane treatment simply because it would be an inconvenience. If humane treatment is impossible, then the prisoners have to be released.

1) The Soviet soldiers were weakened because of the food rations in the Red Army were rather poor in 1941 and because they were often cut off from supplies for several weeks during encirclements before being eventually captured.

2) The logistical situation on the Eastern front that lead to German soldiers themselves not having suffiecient amounts of food at many occasions

3) Lack of local food stocks in the Soviet Union, which were brought back or destroyed by the Red Army

4) The fact that there was enough food to supply Western POWs doesn't mean that there was enough for millions of additional Soviets

1. Soviet rations are irrelevant because the POW's were held in German camps, therefore the Germans were legally responsible for providing humane treatment. They failed to do this.

2. Logistics is irrelevant. The Geneva conventions clearly state that if humane treatment cannot be provided in a specific area, then the POW's must be moved to a different location where humane treatment is possible.

3. Again, completely irrelevant. The prison camps were German, so the Germans had complete responsibility for ensuring ethical treatment of prisoners.

4. Doesn't matter. If you take prisoners without having the ability to feed them, then the responsibility is 100% yours. If humane treatment is impossible, then the POW's must be released.

The POWs that were gassed were likely not randomly selected but rather Jews, commissars or so called instigators

>And by the way, there is no clause in the Geneva conventions that says you are exempt from providing prisoners with humane treatment simply because it would be an inconvenience. If humane treatment is impossible, then the prisoners have to be released.

No, but it means that the reason for the mass starvation of POWs was not that the Nazis wanted all Russians dead. There was btw actually a significant number of POWs that were released already in 1941.

All your points are irrelevant for the question that was discussed: Whether POWs were intentionally starved or not.

>intentionally holds people in camps without food
>this is not intentionally depriving them of food

Starvation of POW's was deliberate and intentional. There isn't a shred of doubt about this. You say that there was a food shortage? Doesn't matter. If you unable to feed prisoners, then you must release the prisoners immediately or you are instantly held responsible.

>we only killed tens of millions because the bad guy killed millions!
take your retarded logic to /pol/.

>Stalin ordered via the Comintern for the German communist party not to collaborate with non-communist left-wing parties like the Social Democrats.
that was never going to happen. german communists never ever trusted the socdems after they used farright paramilitaries to crush their communist revolt in berlin. the socdems likewise really hated the communists.

>Then, in the spring of 1941, at a time when his generals and spies wer....
yeah i agree he did make the war a lot more awful than it had to be

When you take prisoners, you are responsible for providing humane living conditions. This is what the Geneva conventions say, and Germany signed this treaty. This is no clause in this treaty which allows a nation to deny food to prisoners simply because of a food shortage. America and Great Britain held up their end of the treaty. They had food rationing in their own countries, but they never used this as an excuse to starve POW's.

>It goes without saying that most of the green area on your map wasn't planned to be colonized by Germans.
your ignorance is showing. the WHOLE of eastern europe was designated for lebensraum i.e. removal of all natives to make way for german settlers.
>Of course, the population would be resettled elsewhere.
funny how germans exterminated populations instead of resettling them (mostly by working them to death). if they weren't exterminated, the nazis planned on making slavs into slave laborers to serve the new german settlers.

>There were no genocide plans.
it was absolutely implied in all of Hitler's eastern plans which called for a percentage of each countries population to be eliminated and another percentage designated for forced assimiliation.

>>intentionally holds people in camps without food
>>this is not intentionally depriving them of food

No, because they did not intentionally bring about the "without food" point

>Starvation of POW's was deliberate and intentional.

You have failed to prove this. There was a breach of legal norms, but this does not say anything about the intentions. Practically, it would have been very unwise to release millions of men, especially considering the partisan danger. Needless to say, the Allies didn't just release POWs either when there wasn't enough food.

Hitler called slavs subhuman back in the 20s in mein kampf. I never could understand why "white nationalists" would lionize a guy who wanted the largest Euro subgroup eradicated. Or do you also not see slavs as european?

You still haven't grasped that noone even argued that the treatment of Soviet POWs conformed with the Geneva Convention.

>"Le evil Nazi ideology"
just because its commonplace to say nazi ideology was inhumane DOES NOT make it false. have you actually read up on nazi ideology?

>Hitler called slavs subhuman back in the 20s in mein kampf.

I don't think they were explicitely called subhuman, he implied their racial inferiority however. This does not necessarily mean eradication, though.

>one scene from a documentary that might well have been propaganda footage staged by the nazis
>Im REDPILLD guiz XDD

The treatment itself is proof. You are not even denying that that the inhumane treatment occurred. You are simply trying to imply that it should be excused because of a "food shortage." Complete nonsense. There was food rationing in everything country that during WW2. This was not something unique to Germany, and it certainly does not excuse their monstrous treatment of Soviet POW's and Soviet civilians.

What's the fucking difference?

So then you have admitted that the German army starved Soviet POW's. Don't reply, because I know what you will say. You will try to insist that this was an "accident." Bullshit. There is no "accident" in international law. If you take prisoners are responsible for providing humane treatment, period. Claiming that this was an accident does not absolve you of responsibility. Quite the opposite.

Except that's bullshit and most estimates estimate much more