So Veeky Forums where do you stand?

MARIUS did LITERALLY nothing wrong.

Sullafags are literally retarded.

Both were the worst, the people of Rome are sovereign, not these overly-ambitious plutocrats.

Daily reminder there're only two things Sulla has ever done wrong: he trusted Cinna and he spared that Julia boy. I would add sacking Athens to the list, but it's not like they'd left him a choice.

I have to stand with Sulla, since Mariusfags can't stand after so many strokes.

Oh wow, great argument there cupcake.

>Caesar stop being a tyrant, that's the senate's job
Cato died a sad, pathetic little bitch just like his precious senate.

Only mistake Sulla made was allowing Julius Caesar live. He was already on the list ffffff.

HE'S MAKING A LIST
AND CHECKING IT TWICE
GONNA FIND OUT WHO'S NAUGHTY AND NICE

Not an argument, Sullafag.

Daily reminder Marius and Cinna were the first to make a proscription list.

Top fucking kek

>multiple Sullafags (read, patricians) have posted arguments longer than one sentence
>not ONE (1) Mariusfag has posted an arguement longer than a single sentence shitpost

>*****multiple***** Sullafags
>samefagging this badly
Ayyyy

This desperation. Tell me, whose military reforms would ensure the Roman Empire's survival for the next 500+ years? Because the man that did that wasn't Sulla, cuck..

> Tell me, whose military reforms would ensure the Roman Empire's survival for the next 500+ years?
Augustus's? The only thing the Marian reform achieved was the creation of private armies with no loyalty to the Republic, which would eventually destroy it.

>Augustus
>involved at all with the Marian reforms
>"created private armies"
Literally, you are retarded.

> thinks the Roman army stopped its development in 100 BC and was the same Marian army until 400 AD
> call others retarded
Marius wasn't the only one who reformed the Army, you know, and Augustus' reforms are way more influential for the later Army's development.
>"created private armies"
How is this false? Literally, the only reason Sulla was able to convince his troops to march on Rome was because they were landless proletariat who had no vested interest in the political status quo and stood to win more by supporting their general's bid to power, thus making them his private army. It wouldn't be possible with the earlier army of small landowners.

both were awful cunts

That's why Marius gets the popular vote, the people respond to simple messages.

They are called the MARIAN REFORMS for a reason, dude.

>created private armies
>"How is this false?"
Considering the concept already fucking existed in Rome for centuries and the last century and half of the Republic is filled with rampant corruption, civil wars, and the backings of populist Roman politicians and generals usurping power and authority, nothing about Marius making a permanent change to reforming the army into being an entirely professional force made this a new variable in Roman politics.

populares pls go

> They are called the MARIAN REFORMS for a reason, dude.
Yeah, because there was a set of reforms enacted by him around 105 BC. The problem is, he's far from being the only one who reformed the Roman Army, and the Army itself was in a state of constant change from the very start till 1453. The Roman Army in 50 BC is nothing like The Roman Army in 100 BC, and the Roman Army in 300 AD was a different thing entirely. Saying his military reforms had any influence beyond the next 50 years is a sure way to show you don't know shit.
> Considering the concept already fucking existed in Rome for centuries
What? The last private army in Rome by this time was Fabii's one destroyed by Etruscans sometime in the early 5th century, there were no private armies in Rome since then. The closest thing was bands of supporters armed with clubs both sides used during the Gracchi episodes, but this is nothing like an actual army.
> nothing about Marius making a permanent change to reforming the army into being an entirely professional force made this a new variable in Roman politics.
It's like not only you aren't aware of modern historiography on the subject, you haven't even read the wiki, the Marian reforms are rightfully considered to be one of the main reasons for the eventual fall of the Republic. With a hindsight, it's obvious that arming poor people with no say in the government and giving the command over them to ambitious leaders isn't a very good idea when there's no difference between military and political command in your political system.

>Marius builds Sulla's entire career for him
>sulla can't wait one or two year til he dies

Roman in other words

Why did Romans have such odd noses?
Was it seen as a status symbol to have a short nose?

Marcus Aemilius Scaurus was best Roman

>he dies
>rome literally never recovers

He is the most important reformer, enabler, and force on changing and permanently improving Roman military might, traditions, training, and combat tactics.

Marius >>>>>>>>>>> Sulla.

>histography
You really are a retard.

> He is the most important reformer, enabler, and force on changing and permanently improving Roman military might, traditions, training, and combat tactics.
It's not like Romans lacked a military tradition or had any problems with conquering the Mediterranean before Marius. His reforms were an ad hoc attempt to solve the Cimbri problem, which he did, undermining the Republic in the process. Oh, and he was able to do so only because he broke the law by being elected consul 5 times in a row.
> Marius >>>>>>>>>>> Sulla
Right, because we should be Ok with a guy going against the law and the Senate only because he enacted some good reforms 15 years before.

Let me be clear, If Marius had retired/died in the 90s, I wouldn't have any problems with him, I would ever agree to consider him the savior of the Republic. But his unjustified ambitions, his obsession with the seventh consulship and the readiness with which he disregarded the law and the tradition to achieve it make him hard to sympathize with.

Marius saved Rome from literal destruction by barbarian hordes. Sulla saved from from a minor setback against greek wannabee bumboys.

This.

>ywn see a miniseries about Marius & Sulla
It's a pity. Pic related looks a lot like Sulla's bust

>you will never get a 3rd season of HBO Rome