Does God have to be a physical being? can he be cosmos itself for example, something which has no form.
I always see personifications of God, but is it possible that he simply does not exist in such a form, only as something fleeting and not seeable?
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I've always felt that more ancient interpretations of "God" alluded to that, only their languages we're simpler and had no such words for cosmos or matter, I mean it seems silly to think that an omnipotent being capable of forging infinity as we know it would be sentient as we are, or even give a shit for that matter. Can any anons, who are well versed in ancient theology, give any examples of people(s) or civilisations of whom believed this about their respective diety? That it encompasses all things and isn't necessarily a living and thinking being as we are?
agnostic naturalistic deism
I too would like to know
Stoics like Cleanthes, Epictetus, and Zeno fit this mold pretty well. They believed that, in order to live a just and virtuous life, you had to follow God's will (God's will being what/how nature intended humans to live).
Dogmatically, no major religion actually believes God has a physical form. Read everything here under the existence and essence of God, chapters 2-13. St. Thomas Aquinas's Summa Theologica is the most concise work on the subject and a good way to get a general idea of how monotheistic religions conceive of God.
newadvent.org
As for God as "the cosmos," that is pantheism, founded by Spinoza in the 17th century. The ancient Hindu concept of Brahman is very similar to this, although cloaked in mythology, but in the West it is a relatively recent concept. Read part one of his magnum opus Ethics for more.
earlymoderntexts.com
The christian god is said to be everywhere at once, and at all times at once.
It's actually pretty cool that nearly 4000 years after some goat-fucking peasant wrote that we discovered that time is in fact a dimension that we can theoretically freely move around in.
But to answer the question, yes, the classical interpretation of the very christian god is that. He only takes form to communicate with people in the bible, and after a while he stops doing even that.
just the whole "created man in his image" narrative is the one people love the most
this is sort of a form of deism or more philosophical theism than anything else. The monotheistic religion do not have this.
Ancient interpretation is one thing but if it's grounded in the religious text its another. For example Abraham actually met with God understand an oak tree and saw him face to face.
>Dogmatically, no major religion actually believes God has a physical form
I would like to remind you that Aquinas would be wrong in presuming that, he's presupposing it through philosophy not through the actual biblical text itself
Yes. Exactly this. I don't believe in any form if religion, since they're passed down from human to human, and interpreted through humans, but I love this idea of it. Very nice insight, user. You put ideas that I elated to into words very well. I'm glad you did it.
being thought up and passed down by humans doesn't mean its less credible. You're assuming we're separate entities from god and his universe.
Interesting, I'll definitely take some time to read on these stoics. Thanks user.
But the Christian God, regardless of what form they take, still appears to harbour emotions concerning mankind, instilling morality within us and laying down rules of how we should behave on the earth, and punishing those who go against that will. What I'm looking for is examples of God(s) who are said to indeed be the driving force behind creation itself, but indifferent to mankind, not because it is aware and doesn't care, but because it simply isn't a sentient beings, it does not think, does not have rhyme or reason, does not have purpose, it just.......is. Here's an example, a dog sneezes into a puddle and a bacterial culture forms, and for the sake of my point, this bacteria becomes aware of how they were formed. They understand the dog had no intention of forming them necessarily, and doesn't care one way or another what happens, but they acknowledge the dog doing so, and give the dog praise and thanks. Thanks for the tidbit either way user.
>Ancient interpretation is one thing but if it's grounded in the religious text its another. For example Abraham actually met with God understand an oak tree and saw him face to face.
See my reply to
>What I'm looking for is examples of God(s) who are said to indeed be the driving force behind creation itself, but indifferent to mankind, not because it is aware and doesn't care, but because it simply isn't a sentient beings
Just today, and in this very board, I learned of this:
en.wikipedia.org
""The One" (Τὸ Ἕν) is a concept that is prominent in the writings of the Neoplatonists, especially those of the philosopher Plotinus.[113] In the writings of Plotinus, "The One" is described as an inconceivable, transcendent, all-embodying, permanent, eternal, causative entity that permeates throughout all of existence.[114.'
Seems to more or less fit what you are looking for.
Seems that the Greeks had many philosophers who were down that alley with how they interpret God. Interesting stuff, thanks user.
The ininite Brahman in Hinduism, the Dao in Daoism
1. Giving em too much.
2. Obv. They didnt know about multiple dimensions.
3. The thora was completed in 600bce, same as the Gita and thus not 4000 years old lol they wish.
I don't think God has a consciousness similar to an animal and I don't think he considers beings on an individual basis-- I doubt if he thinks in language. I believe it's a force guiding energy through cycles of chaos and order. Definitely not something granting our wishes.
Like the Egyptian Ma'at?
I see god as a concept that has been abused through the ages for power. Like the Egyptians. It started as a means to explain the unexplainable or to move people to do things they'd never do otherwise.
As a previous user said, deistic religions such as Hinduism follow the more abstract belief in God you describe. The various deities within the Hindu mythos describe lessons meant for humanity to learn.
But hinduism have Visnu and Kali, all those gods and they have plenty of idol worship concerning these gods. Are they in fact just a fleeting unseeable form, but have a human-like appearance to probe to Humanity that they exist?
>of whom believed this about their respective diety
1)Indus with the Brahman
2)some Greek philosophers who thought God was "pure thought" and didn't have a human personality (Solon, and Plotin to name a few)
>I would like to remind you that Aquinas would be wrong in presuming that, he's presupposing it through philosophy not through the actual biblical text itself
What biblical text are you talking about that supports this? And no the incarnation doesn't count, at least not where God's essence is concerned.
Nope
He's beyond anything we can possible understand,for now
>OP
Tons, this is only a snippet, for YHWH appearing to people in bodily form (whether its his fullness, name or presence)
Genesis 17:1-2
When Abram was ninety-nine years old the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am God Almighty; walk before me, and be blameless, that I may make my covenant between me and you, and may multiply you greatly.”
Genesis 18:1-2
And the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day. He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing in front of him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth
Exodus 33:18-22 Moses said, “Please show me your glory.” And he said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name ‘The LORD.’ And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.” And the LORD said, “Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock, and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by.
Exodus 34:5-7
The LORD descended in the cloud and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD. The LORD passed before him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children’s children, to the third and the fourth generation.”
Jeremiah 1:9
Then the LORD put out his hand and touched my mouth. And the LORD said to me,
“Behold, I have put my words in your mouth.
I see him as some metaphysical construct that relies on massive and unfounded leaps of faith to justify. He served a purpose when we just didn't know certain things or felt the need to have some kind of concrete base for anything in existence (including thoughts and acts) but he's quickly becoming vestigial.
For the most part these are purely metaphorical, neither Christianity or rabbinical Judaism hold these to be be a physical body and strictly hold that God is "I am who am," pure being and not a created entity.
I wanted to add this in as well which is the second personhood of YHWH
Genesis 22:16-18
And the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven and said, “By myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies, and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice.”
Genesis 33:11-13
Then the angel of God said to me in the dream, ‘Jacob,’ and I said, ‘Here I am!’
And he said, ‘Lift up your eyes and see, all the goats that mate with the flock are striped, spotted, and mottled, for I have seen all that Laban is doing to you. I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar and made a vow to me. Now arise, go out from this land and return to the land of your kindred.’”
Doesn't the Christian god technically not count since he is also the son, who was physical?
>the metaphorical meme
The view of a physical body was always there in the text, only eisegesis can get to the metaphor point, no proper exegesis can show this point. It clear says that God has a body and his body can come down to the earth. The development of the non-body God was only developed later by Jewish philosophers and Christian theologians who were influenced by the Greek philosophical view of the God's body. In actual fact it is anachronistic to do so, remember that Judaism and Christianity grew out from an Ancient Near Eastern world not a Greco-Roman world that people like to apply today.
Read Bodies of God by Benjamin Sommer a Jewish scholar who admits that such development caused the non-body of God to develop.
Best biblical depictions of God are the Burning Bush, where he gave his name and the Ark of the Covenant, which I believe was lost because it became and idol. There's a passage in John I believe where Jesus is being batised. The Son is there, a dove representing the Holy Spirit lands on him, and the Father speaks in a light from Heaven to say, "this is my Son, with whom I am please." For the most part, I dislike the general depiction of God because it can lead to sinful idolatry or lead us to make our own assumptions of Him.
is there any religion at all where god does not appear in a humanoid form? where he's just present as a fleeting thing, unkowing of us and our actions.
Fair enough, but that still doesn't change the fact that today, no religion believes these things.
He or it is the completement (pleroma) or intelligent energy.
Never deny that, they're wrong.
How are they wrong?
They're wrong cause they base their view of God on a philosophical presupposition not the actual text itself.
Islam has that, the only Abrahamic religion which outright denies "created in human image" thing, which is also the reason why religious human depiction are forbidden
His voice doesnt help much, its very drowsy. Are there any others like him with a more enthusiastic voice?
The hindu 'gods' are just scrubs tbqhwy
>Dogmatically, no major religion actually believes God has a physical form
Wrong. Mormon movement states God has body like yours. And yes, they are a "major religion" with millions of adherents around the globe.
And don't forget the original semitic religion (the ancient hebrews) declared the same.
He mainly specializes on the Law of One. I came across his videos looking for stuff on Valentinianism. He does speak about traditions from all across the world and throughout history and explains the shared beliefs in them.
A lot of yt channels with videos on Gnosticism have taken off in recent years but one the those that has been around for a while is Gnostic Media.
>no words for cosmos or matter
Greeks literally made those words up so they did have the words.
Really that's what a college course on the subject would sound like.
mechanical-translation.org
According to the Mechanical Translations group the Hebrew verb translated as create actually has a meaning of fattening in the sense of being filled up. Perhaps there's something with that and pleroma which comes from 'pleroo' meaning "to fill".
mechanical-translation.org
en.wiktionary.org