Communism

Cum ta Burlinn

The Berlin Wall is the ultimate proof of Communism's failure. No proper country would ever build a double wall with snipers, barbed wire, and machine gun turrets just to stop their own citizens from leaving.

The U.S. is probably in the process of doing that now instead of to keep people out.

Capitalism IS compatible with human nature. Marxists simply deny there is such a thing and imagine they can perfect humans thru education, everything we have learned about humans since Marx's time suggests this is nonsense, and the total failure of any communist regime to achieve ANY of their stated goals is testament to this.

Animal Farm is not about communism, it's about totalitarianism in all its forms.

The situation on the German frontier was volatile an the Soviets were truly concerned about aggression from ex Nazis. Just look at this propaganda piece.
youtu.be/CdxqJ4P39hY

What are you babbling about? No-one is forced to stay in America, on the contrary millions of people actively seek to move TO America. Meanwhile the Commies "perfect" system required them to quite literally murder their own people for the "crime" of wanting to leave.

Animal Farm is very clearly a metaphor for the Russian Revolution and its aftermath. 1984 is a much better example of a general criticism of totalitarianism in all its forms.

fpbp /thread

Rethink you are lives.

I'm no fan of Marx, but that image is incorrect. Marx did hold jobs. He was a working journalist.

That's nice, but Orwell himself was very clear about what his work was about, and it was about totalitarianism of all stripes, not just gommunism.

Get a life and a better job rightshit shill.

>being this buttblasted

Your messiah was a crank and his crackpot theories lead to countless millions dying and suffering.

nice ad homined image, now where's the argument?

Your life is meaningless and you'll never amount to anything more than being an unconvincing shill.

it doesn't work due to human nature

we find it hard to do things when we can't see the immediate results

you work in communism but don't see the fruits of your labour, it gets stolen from you and given to other people

you have no say

>What is death of the author?

Whatever you say cretin.

...

Communism can never work because it is based on false premises. Marx's entire work is based on his theory of alienation, according to which, the worst aspects of human society (according to him), such as violence and religion, were the results of class polarization, which communism would then solve through the common ownership of the means of production.

Archeology has shown, though, that violence and religion predate class polarization, it exists even in primitive communist societies of hunter-gatherers.

Few have noted how this completely destroys Marxism. If alienation is false, then there is no reason to believe that even if True Communism™ was achieved and the means of production were in the hands of worker's councils, it wouldn't quickly degenerate into warfare between different councils and hierarchization within.

Basically, human nature.

...

Communism goes against the grain of human selfishness, whereas capitalism goes with it. Communism demands people to be nicer, more altruistic than the average person actually is.
Free markets do a better job of allocating resources than central planning does.
Investors and financiers, the much-maligned rentier class of bankers and speculators, actually serve an important role in society. The economy benefits when there are big concentrations of wealth that the holders of the wealth can insert into the economy based on their own judgment, at times of their own choosing. It benefits for a similar reason as why an army functions better when there are reserves behind the front line than when all personnel are equally divided along the front line with nothing behind them. Sometimes a big task or opportunity arises that can be really accelerated by investment. Capitalism is good at this. Of course government can also serve the role of the deployer of reserve wealth, but history shows that things work best when there is a mixed system - both private investors and the state capable of directing massed wealth as needed.
That said, Marxism is sometimes attacked for things that Marx himself didn't support. From what I understand, Marx himself viewed communism as a potential next stage after capitalism, that would potentially be enabled by technological advancement. He didn't think it was something that would necessarily work if deployed in agricultural nations like early 20th century Russia and China. And perhaps, if technological change leads to a post-scarcity state, communism will become a realistic political system. But in the current reality, with current levels of scarcity, it just doesn't work well enough.

Well you know lots of things are human nature but are regulated in civilized societies like violence. What's proposed is that the regulating be applied on labor and financing as well.

>Implying

The very fact that humans were able to live under both feudalism and capitalism essentially precludes the type of "human nature" capitalists claim humans posses.

No it doesn't you stupid assclown. This kind of moronic "opinion" is why you "people" are such absolute simpletons, and why your woowoo political ideas are so utterly laughable.

>posts a bunch of losers

Hhahaha, is this supposed to be pro commie? Because it just makes you look like the incompetent losers you are.

>both my Grandparents were tortured trying to come here from Cuba, grandpa was beaten to shit, grandmother was raped numerous times by guards
>Finally made it here in 77, leaving their children behind, not knowing if they will ever have the chance to see them again
>Mom comes during the Mariel boatlift
>Boat nearly capsized on the way here
>One of her cousins was on another boat which did capsized, while her cousin survived her 3 month old baby was swept out into the ocean
>After the Mariel her cousins and other brothers and sisters tried hard to make it to the states
>Some made it, most failed and we're imprisoned in Cuba and she hasn't heard from one brother who was caught 4 fucking times trying to leave Cuba since the last time he left
>EVERYONE was miserable in Cuba and risked life and limb trying to get to Miami.
>Was grateful for every opportunity she had to work
>Worked her ass off, learned the language to the point that she lost her accent since she moved to Massachusetts and they weren't as friendly to Cubans.
>Started teaching in colleges
>First thing shes is some thick rimmied douche bag wearing a Che Guevara shirt with a set a BMW keys
>All this faggots presentations were about the glory of Communism
>Last presentation of the semester was about how much better life is in Cuba than here
>She says fuck college and starts teaching in elementary school.
Fuck 1st world communistas. I hope you guys do get to live in a communist society one day and get sodomized when you try to escape.

They built the wall in order to prevent the west and the CIA from "buying" the east's high-skilled workers such as doctors, you historically illiterate dildo.

At the time the Berlin Wall was constructed, East Germany's income per capita was 2/5 that of the west because the east was forced to pay much more in World War II reparations than West Germany. Hindering it's economic growth.

By the time the wall came down, eastern workers were making 2/3 that of a westerner's salary.

This is a thread about communism retard.

If you understood absolutely anything about the social structure of feudalism you would realize how stupid you sound. There is no possible coherent definition of human nature that can reconcile humans adapting to both feudalism and capitalism. The truth is that humans can more or less adapt themselves to any social structure that can provide them the basic necessities of life.

A communist society has never been achieved. The USSR, Maoist China, Cuba, etc. are all socialist states. You must one of those guys that thinks Bernie Sanders and Hitler are socialists.

>They built the wall in order to prevent the west and the CIA from "buying" the east's high-skilled workers such as doctors, you historically illiterate dildo.

So they built the wall because their doctors wanted to get paid more out west? Sounds alot like what he said, they were keeping them in.

>Yugoslav wars
>Spanish civil war
>Capitalism
Kill yourself.

That image is ridiculous.

This infographics is terrible bait. I have a half asses knowledge of history and know this is complete and utter dog shit.

Of course they were keeping them in. How is it unjustified to protect extremely vital workers such as doctors from being bought off by the west?

Compensate them properly? Don't pay them in dogfood?

On the off chance you actually want serious replies, I'll give you one from the perspective of someone who has read virtually the entirety of Marx's writings on political economy.

There is a bit of a latent contradiction between Marx's work as a political economist and his work as a social revolutionary. A historical materialist analysis of human history makes clear that new modes of production virtually always arose as an accidental, unplanned and unintended by-product of people trying to reproduce themselves as they were. In reality, no widespread mode of production in human history was enacted as a result of coordinated conscious deliberate action by humans.

The unsettling implication of this is that it is extremely difficult--if at all possible--to impose a new mode of production on the real underlying economic circumstances of human existence. This has been made starkly clear in all the cases where "communist" revolutions occured in largely pre-capitalist societies which had nothing like the productivity necessary to make a communist mode of production really feasible, and which then had to resort to totalitarianism to try and force the kind of labour productivity improvements that the capitalist mode of production intrinsically generates, and to force people to accept the relatively low living standards associated with that limited labour productivity.

Ultimately, in order to paper over the significant difficulties of implementing a mode of production by collective fiat and the necessary inefficiency of a mode of production that has the satisfaction of human needs as its main focus rather than the absolute maximization of labour productivity you need to have a high enough level of labour productivity to be able to ensure a minimal drop in standard of living for most people, which is likely to only be practically achievable once automation has reached a sufficiently advanced stage to severely curtail the amount of socially necessary labour time.

wtf i hate communism now

I bet they were probably gusanos, that's why you didn't write the reason why they were trying to escape. but you are LARPing

I don't recognize all of the people in that picture but I know that the ones I do recognize are anything but successes which in turn makes me think that the whole picture is bogus.

Communism needs capitalism when it's at its zenith. Problem is capitalism keeps evolving into something better and strnonger. 20th century movements should have stopped at Democratic socialism. Communism will win in the end. The people will no longer need to slave for a minuscule existence while the elites profit from our sweat in labor and our blood from war. Just how the kings lost their power, the elites will lose their

Eat a back of dicks, you can find Cubans in the entire world that had to make miracles to escape the island. Literally millions of them all over the world.

Life in the island was and is still a miserable unlivable shithole. Even for people who you'd think would have higher standards of life like judges.

Leaders will always be needed. And if leaders are needed, social classes will inevitably continue to exists.

Money is not the only way in which you can create social classes, Power and authority are ultimately what people seek, money is just a way to gain power in the age of capitalism, and when it ends, people will find other ways to attain power.

Literally dozens of reports from the UN, UNICEF, and other observers confirm that it's better off in many ways than most other Latin American countries.

being slightly better than completely shit isnt saying much

It doesn’t value creativity, forced collectivization, absence of citizens’ rights, reduced incentives to work hard, militant opposition to imperialism,
indifference towards the environment, economic calculation problem, class struggle’s going nowhere, mass murders, Karl Marx was wrong, etc.

I'm confused, how does the free market necessarily equate to what is right?

You think conflict is always necessary?

I am of the opinion the free market is like an option from a menu at a restaurant, not the basis for which the restaurant exists, but just a choice. In other words, I think it is human nature to adopt and conform to the bounds of society's mandates and obligations, depending on what they are.

I'm not saying capitalism or communism is the answer, but we do NOT currently live under a completely free market anyway, let's be honest there is a sufficient amount of mandated pricing.

The supply demand curve is more complicated than people give it credit for anyway, Léon Walrus has illustrated an example of the supply demand curve, and the psychological profiles of the consumers actually causes the supply and demand lines to intersect twice, causing two equilibrium points.

>Hit with the truth
>Oh you must be LARPing

Kill yourself you LARPing commie scum. You wouldn't last a fucking day in Cuba. My grandfather fought for the revolution and NOPED the second he could. "Hurr Durr you guys are counter revolutionary" fuck you and your fantasy world you live in. I bet you own a fucking iphone you faggot.
Latin America sucks dick in general you fucking twat. Sure it's not Venezuela now or Columbia in the 90s. Congrats. You still have millions of people trying to leave the country and millions who have left.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_to_the_Victims_of_Communism

>The truth is that humans can more or less adapt themselves to any social structure that can provide them the basic necessities of life.

So not Communism, then?

Also you're understanding of human nature is as pathetic as your understanding of economics.

Because they're not slaves? You don't own their talents any more than you own their bodies.

Your literally retarded.

Sounds like me when I graduated high school and actually got a job.

I literally don't give a shit. I know first hand Cuba is among the worst.

If you have countries like Venezuela, Haiti and the entirety of central america muddying the statistics then of course Cuba looks slightly decent.

lmao

lol

lel

lmfao

Seriously though, destroying statues is a shitty thing to do. I hate communism but this just makes me sad.

>that image
hard to tell if this is bait or some sod from /leftypol/ genuinely believes this

>Muh human nature

Human nature is flexible.

To a certain very limited degree perhaps, but nowhere near enough to make gommunism possible.

>human nature
this shit meme seriously needs to stop

Is communism a slave morality?

>animal farm
>children book

what? animal farm is not a children book lad

why?

because it doesn't fit your naive worldview?

Deng powered the entire Chinese economy with the force produced by Mao rolling in his grave.

Fucking ironic.

Human nature is determined by the environment. Actually, what do you even mean by "human nature"? If you mean "everyone has same pay", that's never even been the idea in communism.

Really shows how leash-led some people are when the message "destroy hierarchies, replace egalitarianism" gets twisted into "garbage collector and rocket scientist receive the same benefits lul" tier of garbage.

Correction:
*replace with egalitarianism

North Korea is much more fascist than socialist, which you would know if you knew what you what you were talking about in the least.

He (and all of his followers) disregarded the market. Communists said that value=labour*material. This isn't true. Value is what you can sell your goods for. This is why every comunist state (except Romania) went into the debt spiral. They gave more to the workers than they produced.

Also, since ordinary people didn't own their land and tool, they didn't care enough to maintain them. State monopoly guaranteed comfy jobs, and lack of competition resulted in lack of achievement in everywhere except the military/space exploration. State grants made people lazy, there was a saying: "they pretend to pay us, we pretend to work". They didn't want to work and had to be forced to do it. You would be thrown into jail if you were unemployed.

Then again, communism was a ruse to rile up the proletariat, so the urnite intelligentsia could overthrow the aristocracy and take their wealth.

t. someone who lives in a former communist country

>inb4 some community college retard says it hasn't been tried

why would anything designed by a fat NEET who never bathed and leeched off of his bourgeoisie friend for his entire life work?

Attack the argument, not the person. By doing that you lose by default, proving yourself a barbarian amongst civilized men.

>Human nature is determined by the environment.

No. It was shaped by the environment during our evolution but to say it "depends on" the environment displays a total ignorance of 100+ years of scientific study since Darwin. This infantile equation that our nature is determined by our circumstance is precisely why communism has and always will fail so terribly.

>2017
>communism
Look at this fucking picture. This level of development could only be achieved under a capitalist system.

What argument? He didn't make one, he just stated his moronic opinion, proving as he did so that he knows nothing at all about feudalism, capitalism, OR human nature.

> By doing that you lose by default

OH NO a literal halfwit on the internet thinks I've "lost"! How will I ever recover from the shame of knowing that you, a cretinous spastic, think poorly of me? Oh woe is me!

What I meant is that you made yourself look like a retard. Bawl though you might, expect no further (You)s.

HAHAHA you're using bishop as an example of a good leader, thats retarded.

This picture is confussing captialism with imperisalism. Also, the first one is absolutley ridiculous. No marxist government has ever produced new forms of medicine that actually worked, so no we could not have saved them with socialism, more would have died.

RRREEEEE VENEZUELA IS NOT SOCIALIST YOU RACIST WIENIESSSS!!!!!

Because you live in a bourgeois democracy (probably) and there's a huge material interest in shitting all over it. You know how monarchists lost their shit over the rise of Napoleon? It wasn't because he was an absolute dictator (god knows there wasn't a shortage at the time), but because he had the good sense to fuck over the aristocracy and promote competence. Stalin will come to be understood as a hero on par with Napoleon. Tldr read Hoxha and fuck to the eurocommunists

> the price mechanism

This. Instead of letting prices set themselves, communists want to work out all prices of everything with a pen and paper, or later with a computer, and then pass laws fixing those prices. If you charge differently you get sent to Siberia.

I'm not making this up. This is what the field of linear optimisation and programming was invented for.

Something that can be arranged very easily in Soviet Russia.

*tips fedora*

What did your parents do for a living in Cuba?

There is no such thing as a fixed and unchangeable human nature. Humans have lived and do live in social forms with wildly different and totally opposite norms, values and expected behaviors.

I love it when people who don't even understand neoclassical economics, much less Marxian economics, vomit forth their totally uninformed drivel like it contributes anything to the discussion.

Nice word salad.