What tactics could the Romans have used to avoid the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest and the loss of 3 legions ?
Context :
The legionnaires followed along rudimentary trails that meandered among the Germans' farmsteads, scattered fields, pastures, bogs and oak forests. As they progressed, the line of Roman troops—already seven or eight miles long, including local auxiliaries, camp followers and a train of baggage carts pulled by mules-became dangerously extended.
Varus and his troops were entering a passage between a hill and a huge swamp known as the Great Bog that, in places, was no more than 60 feet wide. As the increasingly chaotic and panicky mass of legionnaires, cavalrymen, mules and carts inched forward, Germans appeared from behind trees and sand-mound barriers, cutting off all possibility of retreat. Rather than face certain torture at the hands of the Germans, he chose suicide, falling on his sword as Roman tradition prescribed. Most of his commanders followed suit, leaving their troops leaderless in what had become a killing field.
>"An army unexcelled in bravery, the first of Roman armies in discipline, in energy, and in experience in the field, through the negligence of its general, the perfidy of the enemy, and the unkindness of fortune was exterminated almost to a man by the very enemy whom it has always slaughtered like cattle" Velleius Paterculus, a survivor.
Did the Roman Army systematically loose when it had no choice over the time and place of the engagement ? I'm seeing a parallel between fighting germanic tribes hiding in forest and the conquest America. Of course, legionnaires lacked the mobility of the spanish musket infantry or the US cavalry, but does it really all comes down to that ? Mobility ?
What do you think about the French commercial strategy in New France ? Setting Forts, trading with the native, making alliance and make them fight each other. Could it have been adapted to Germania by Rome ?
Daniel Edwards
Why exactly did teutoburg change history? Only the Romans cared that they got btfo by g*rms
Andrew Allen
>Why exactly did teutoburg change history?
Brody Myers
It could have been avoided with the use of scouts, not sure why he never utilized them. Maybe due to the fact that his Germanic right hand, Arminius, told him to cross the passage.
John Gutierrez
Intergrate the Germans more completely, just like they did in Gaul by uniting them against a common enemy (migrating Celts that didn't accept Roman hegemony). There were too many sandals on the ground in Germany.
Tyler Ortiz
They got what they deserved, they trusted a G*rm.
Lincoln Lewis
Choosing the battlefield is a huge advantage but the Romans could and did adapt to unfavorable situations. It would be rare for ANY army to lose when it gets to choose the ground, since badly outmatched forces would choose not to fight at all.
Benjamin Bailey
Had the Romans not been BTFO, they were planning on conquering Germany. This would have prevented the Völkerwanderung, whihc in turn would have changed history in ways that are impossible to predict.
You have to consider that Germania at this time was essentially one huge forest, which was very, well empty. No cities to conquer, the first German cities were actually founded by the Romans, like e.g. Aachen, Cologne or Trier. The Germans were primitive tribesmen and had little to offer to the Roman Empire.
Consider also that the northern european climate is not very attractive for people who are used to the mediterranean. You might want to read what Roman historian Tacitus wrote about Germania, the land and its inhabitants:
Lucas Martin
Romans hated using scouts, really julius was one of the few generals pre empire that used scouts ar all because it was seen as unworthy.
Asher Johnson
>Romans hated using scouts Source please, this seems interesting. Was there some sort of historical figure who never relied on scouts and that all Roman generals admired ? Are is it beacause Auxiliaries replaced them and it was later perceived as a not Roman worthly job ?
Hudson Garcia
>hated using scouts There's literally a miniature battle fought during the wars with Macedonia between Roman scouts and Macedonian vanguard
Zachary Fisher
This is wrong, Teutoburg wasn't a single battle, but a series of ambushes over 3 days, the romans where literally lost in the forest and the Germans where grinding them down. The battle at the swamp was just the last stand of the already depleted Romans.
>It could have been avoided with the use of scouts They had scouts, problem was they where German auxiliaries commanded by Arminius. You know the Arminius that turned coat and instigated the entire battle from the start?
Justin Jenkins
Velleius Paterculus wasn't a survivor of the "Varian disaster" as it was known to the Romans. He did have friends who had been survivors of it and he had personally served east of the Rhine so he probably knew what the experience was like.
The Romans did have forts in Germania for centuries, beyond the frontiers. They traded with the natives, and did all the shit that you are talking about. They were masters of bribing one tribe to attack another and it is half the reason the empire survived so long. In the end their decisions to arm one tribe against another led to the Barbaricum being awash with Roman gold and arms leading to the tribes gradually coalescing into larger, more dangerous groupings such as the Frankish.
Oliver Sanders
>You know the Arminius that turned coat and instigated the entire battle from the start? Then how do you advance in foreign lands without auxiliaries ? Particulary dense forests ? Maybe they should have just... have burned it down. Did the Romans actually lacked a fully integrated reckon unit in their Legions ?
>bribing one tribe to attack another So there was not enough animosity between all the tribes to prevent an unification ?
Ethan Cruz
Only thing that it really changed was delaying the invasion of Britain
Leo Perry
Yes, and the Roman expansion into Germania, plus their retreat behind the Limes.
Ryder Wilson
see
Caleb Miller
>So there was not enough animosity between all the tribes to prevent an unification ?
There was a massive amount of animosity, but over the centuries the smaller tribes began to recognise the "divide and conquer" strategies of the superpower on their borders and charismatic chieftains were able to unite various tribes into larger ones. What had been dozens of tribes in the 1st century B.C. became a dozen. The unification wasn't complete, with still divisions between them e.g. Salian Franks-Riparian Franks-Mosan Franks etc. but in response to Roman aggression (constant punitive raids and interference) they felt it was better to get together to pose a better defence.
Brandon Morales
many of tribes such as the Huns and goths came from further east and Scandinavia and where encountered as they migrated through Germania.
If the Romans controlled Magna Germania, i can only see the Romans encountering these people at earlier dates.Furthermore past the river Elbe there's no real major natural barriers for the Romans.
Liam Mitchell
>What tactics could the Romans have used to avoid the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest and the loss of 3 legions ? They could have sent an actual military man as a governor rather than a mere administrator who was convinced the germans were tame and refused to consider the possibility of rebellion. I suppose that's a strategy actually. Oh well, Carus was the main reason for the debacle anyway, kinda pointless to argue about what to do when your leader is just gonna shut you out regardless.
Xavier Cooper
>What is Oder/Neisse/Sudeten line
Noah Nelson
One could argue that the Elbe and Riesengebirge make for a far easier to defend border than the cancer that was the historical limes germanicum. Not to mention that fighting a few germans at a time, with the empire whole and strong, would have been far easier than the constant and massive pressure of the volkenwanderung. Hell, given an early enough consolidation of Germania proper, you could have had enough romanization that the roman empire might have endured rather than shattered upon demographic pressure, kinda like with Gaul.
Gabriel Lee
Germania had nothing besides glory and soldiers to offer the Roman Empire. It was too vast and empty a place covered in forests for the romans to hold without severly weakening their other fronts. If you read the ancient authors it becomes apparant that the primitive germanic peoples held freedom above all. It would have required some amazingly costly efforts to turn Germania into a province. The much more prudent way to deal with the barbarians was to weakening them by dividing the tribes and buy their loyaltyvthrough petty trinkets and a fancy wall system which is exactly what they did. That strategy work pretty good for almost 300 years.
Isaiah Brown
>Germania had nothing besides glory and soldiers to offer the Roman Empire. Why was Germania so much poorer than Gaul?
Asher Roberts
im not sure a larger German province would be a positive thing with the massive internal problems the late empire was facing but anythings possible
Jaxson Kelly
Teutoburg wasn't the last attempt, if anything the assassination of Germanicus by the retard Tiberius was a bigger event that changed history. >Constantly btfo of Germans for two campaigns >Retrieve the lost eagles and bur the dead lost in Teutoburg >Was going to embark on another campaign to beat the Germans again and most likely conquer some territories >His assassination led to his son Caligula to be sent to rape island Fuck Tiberius
Matthew Long
The legions, Varus, bring them this way. Through narrow passes. 'Cross rivers, mountains and snow. Deep deep deep into the dark forest.
Jonathan Lewis
Larger in itself would be bad. But a more romanized germania would mean german legions led by german generals rather than tribal mercs led by tribal kings. Would the empire really have shattered without the germans cutting out swathes of Europe for their own tribes? If they had just been yet another tide of provincial generals looking to take over the imperial purple rather than the imperial land?
>the assassination of Germanicus by the retard Tiberius >implying it wasn't all Livia's doing
Tyler Johnson
My barbarian
You're the best auxiliary ever.
Owen Perez
what about the Goths? they pretty much larped as Romans but it never helped the late empire
Camden Sullivan
WELCOME TO MY WALD :-DDD I WILL BE YOUR GUIDE :-DD
t. Arminius
Xavier Butler
Technology of the time prevented proper resources extraction from its really wild terrain.
Isaiah Harris
>they pretty much larped as Romans Larp is the right word for it. They might have worn togas and spoken latin occasionally, but in the end it was: >king Alaric I sacks Rome to gather spoils and raids Italy until emperor Honorius grants him lands in Aquitania, where he founds the Visigothic Kingdom and not: >general Lucius Flavius Alaricus, governor of Moesia, rebels and takes control of Rome and the Praefectura Italica in a bid to overthrow emperor Honorius and take over the empire I'm not sure whether I'm getting my point through.
Jose Hall
of course, he was first and foremost a goth, he didn't actually see himself as a roman.
Aaron White
Gaul was a fertile and lush region surrounded by navigable water routes which are great for trade. It was also famous for its mercenaries who took on contracts all through out the mediterrenean which would imply a great exchange of ideas and technology.
Germania was a damp svamplike forest with few mineral riches (found at the time that is, later on it was revealed that Germany was very rich in them) with acess to the sea on only one side. These things combined made the germanic tribes isolated and poorly equipped. Add to that,if we are to believe the ancient sources, disdain for agriculture and an extremely militarized society that displayed its dominance by the area of desolation they could maintain around their territory and it is no wonder why Germania sucked to live in.
Dylan Ortiz
Was this attitude deeply engrained? How long did it persist after Charlemagne?
Elijah Sullivan
>worn togas
Nobody wore togas in the 5th century Roman Empire. Everybody wore Germanic style trousers, military cloaks and hats. Climate change meant shit was a lot colder than a few centuries earlier.
Jace Wilson
>One could argue that the Elbe and Riesengebirge make for a far easier to defend border than the cancer that was the historical limes germanicum.
It is a common theme in historiography on Rome for people to impute a certain level of knowledge onto the Romans that they didn't actually have.
Protip 1: Rome never had a grand strategy.
Protip 2: Rome never really had actual maps, only itineraries and lists.
Protip 3: Romans didn't have aerial photography, satellites or Ordnance Survey workers.
Evan Moore
Paterculus was a historian not a teutoburg survivor you fucking autist
Eli Bennett
~1806
Tyler Reyes
>this thread again
The battle of Teutoburg is one of the most overrated battles in history along with the Poitiers Battle
Gabriel Rivera
check the Historia Civilis for interesting and entertaining videos about Roman history.
>society that displayed its dominance by the area of desolation they could maintain around their territory Tell me more user.
Christian Anderson
Always good to read about Romans getting a taste of their own medicine.
Bentley Powell
Well you say that, but if so why did Augustus want to expand specifically up to the Elbe? Also many roman writers mention how inadequate the limes was as a defensive border.
Liam Morales
>2,000 years later, professional armies still can't contend with native guerrilla forces
Military "strategists" btfo
Alexander Watson
Romans weren't really known for luring armies in by traitors and ambush them user.
Hunter Price
t. Contrarian
Owen Jenkins
From a tactics point of view it kinda is user. It's just a moron leading his army in an ambush and getting slaughtered. There's not much to discuss beyond "don't trust traitors".
Juan Barnes
>2,000 years later, professional armies still can't contend with native guerrilla forces
Cameron Brooks
...
Lucas Cook
Romans weren't really fond of ambushes, betrayals and genocides
Brody Ross
>this is what romanboos actually believe
Parker Williams
he's kinda right for example romans fucking hated odysseus because of his cunning and his based schemes
Jayden Butler
Well, ambushes are something you do when you're on the defensive usually, the romans preferred mass enslavement to genocides, and well I suppose they did make use of traitors too yeah. 1/3 kinda gives him the point tho.
Aiden Jenkins
>and well I suppose they did make use of traitors too yeah. But did not pay them.
Lincoln Sanders
>Romans weren't really fond of ambushes, betrayals and genocides Bwahahahaha Read more
Hunter Kelly
Please read something besides Gibbon.
Daniel Hall
>Romans occupying area west of the Elbe will prevent Gothic migration, who were living in Sarmatia at the time.
Jason Ortiz
>ambushes Altough it is a common form of warfare, and I'm positive they may have used it at some point, it's also true that ambushing was not even close to be one of the most used tactics by the Romans
>Betrayals Why do they need to betray? They were the main power in their time, they just need to extert that power.
>Genocides Again, it was seldom seen in the Roman warfare. In the Republic, only two (three) cities were razed to the ground by them, these being Carthage, Ambracia and Corinth.
You can't assimilate genocide with taking prisoners during conquests.
Moreover there's not a single proof of a sistematic killing of any group during Roman times, not even the christians were object of genocide.
Mason Jackson
>Betrayals As in having locals turn traitor user. You know, opening gates during sieges, sabotage enemy operations, instigating coups and rebellions. Also why are you quoting me, I'm agreeing with you.
Andrew Morales
Oh please. Romans lost more people in a battle during the 2nd punic war, and they had less of a population to draw from back then.
Jason Kelly
Pfff. You're like a little baby. Watch this.
Nolan Thompson
Ok, then it's about the Völkerwanderung
Ayden Walker
Oh you could contend with them, but it takes a lot of time and resources, and what you have to do can be so costly in terms of diplomatic reputation and money that it might not be worth fully commiting to
Aka just walk in, kill all the civilians and burn every town until the rebels capitulate, if they don't continue burning the country down into a smoking husk and then leave and come back later until they're ready to surrender. You become pretty evil in the eyes of the world, but that's one way to force guerilla out of their hidey-holes.
Colton Morales
I have no idea desu but I think it, if it's the desolation-building and general isolation) went away at around the time pf the Marcomannic Wars that Marcus Aurelius thought.
Nolan Jackson
That's all I know about it unfortunately. It would presume that it basically serves the same function as a somewhat extensive border wall. It slows down invasions while displaying the might and capacity of the state.
If you want more general "information" you should read what Tacitus had to say about the germans. I always get goosebumps at his mention of the Cimbri. That "They are not what they once were"-line is some really good writing. The part about the tribe that paints themselves black and then go on nightly LARPs as the Wild Hunt in foreign territory is also really great.
Luis Sanchez
In germany there is a traditional game called "whos afraid off the dark man" deriving from them
Gavin Hall
Neat. I wasn't aware of that.
Joseph Thomas
Forgot to add: Could you tell us the gist of the game?
Brandon Parker
The fact that Arminius used his Roman training to predict how the legions would respond to his raids is impressive and explains how he could completely decimate three of them whilst suffering comparatively minimal losses himself.
