Native American General

Precolumbian USA was a lot sparser populated than what is now Mexico or the Andes, and so they cities were a lot smaller. The Spaniards looking for the seven cities of gold/de Cibola (cibolo was how they called the bison) than some natives and even some Spaniards sweared were in North america (it goes back to a legend of the xii century, about 7 bishops than ran from the muslims with gold and settled in the antillie/mythical islands in the atlantic,making seven cities) made a series of treks than travelled North America. They allied or warred with the inhabitants, and they found a few cities(they destroyed the biggest they found because the locals harassed them, they said it was habitated be 10.000 or so, beleived to be chocktaw), but never anything in the scale of the south. They described they costumes and etc too, normally they were little farming villages with the three crops systems, they varied wildly in costumes and all. The few than lived hunting bison or cibolos where described as pitiful, living in abject poverty etc, moving with they dogs and barely scraping a living.

>General
please don't

"Native Americans" is a pretty broad subject, it really depends on what kind you want to talk about. Generally you can divide them into
>Pacific NW
>California
>Great Basin (Nevada, Utah, Colorado)
>Plateau (Idaho, Eastern WA)
>Southwest
>Plains
>Southeast
>Northeast
And each of these areas have vastly different tribes and cultures across thousands of years. Some developed agriculture and even build cities, some didn't.

I find the Eastern Agricultural Complex to be pretty neat, which was reliant on the symbiotic relationship of three staple crops: Maize, Squash and Beans. They grew these crops together in the same spot because they all benefitted each other. Maize gave a natural pole for beans to climb, beans enriched the soil, and squash blocked sunlight on the ground to prevent weeds.

This set up was used by many agricultural natives, including the Pueblos, the Mississippi Mound Builders, and the Eastern Forest Tribes like the Iroquois.

We like to think of all Native American tribes as nomadic hunter-gatherers who live in Tipis, but the truth is that many tribes were sedentary farmers, who build simple villages to sprawling cities like Cahokia, and often traded for valuables from far away lands.

A good example of this is the turquoise trade, where raw turquoise was gathered in the Southwest and traded to Mesoamerica, people like the Toltecs and Aztecs for chocolate, clothing, jewelry, and other goods.

Dumb arrow chuckers who had it coming

Interesting thanks

You may have read that the last instance of armed Indian resistance was at Wounded Knee in 1890. In fact, the last instance of Indian resistance was at Wounded Knee in 1973. Look up Dennis Banks, Russell Means, and the American Indian Movement. Contemporary Indian history is a criminally understudied subject. People act like nothing interesting happened to Indians after the close of the 19th century.

Interesting stuff

Met one who was at Alcatraz, absolutely based individuals why can't we take all the welfare from mexicans and give it to them?

Was he Ohlone? Some of my friends relatives are and go to alcatraz every year.

Along the Pacific Northwest their was limited trading with Japan, as Japanese ships would occasionally wash up there. Native groups there would use copper imported from Japan as a status symbol.

A friend of mine told me that his band also intermarried with a group of Pacific Islanders who made their way from the kingdom of Hawaii to the Pacific northwest.

During the start of European contact, there was a small crisis between the Kingdom of New Spain and the British empire, called the Nootka crisis, in which both countries wanted to claim the coast for themselves. Both had been in limited contact with King Maquinna, of the Nuu-chah-nulth peoples in Nootka sound, who had in only a few short years of trade managed to learn both English and Spanish. He oversaw the dispute and managed to negotiate the resolution that neither country could claim right to the territory, but that both countries could trade along the coast and would aid in defense should any hostile country try to claim the area.

He was also found of taking European slaves as prisoners of war, one of whom, John R. Jewitt, wrote a book about it.

In more recent history, the inventor of surfer rock and heavy metal, Link Wray, was part Shawnee and incorporated some native musical elements into his work. Unfortunately he's tragically unappreciated. Here's one of his songs, youtube.com/watch?v=SYLKckjKG2o

Look into Beringia.

Kek where did you get this? It's obviously cree, but where is it from? Quebec, Ontario or the prairies?

I really just meant it like, "tell me about anything because I don't know shit." Not like I'm going to do this every day.

Meh, people have bought literal cans of feces as art pieces.

>last instance of armed Indian resistance was at Wounded Knee in 1890
What about the Oka crisis?

aeon.co/essays/how-did-the-introduction-of-guns-change-native-america

They routinely burned down large sections of the continent to practice forms of slash and burn agriculture and create barrens for hunting game. The irony being that they're portrayed as being wardens of nature when the forests are a result of European settlement. In 1607 the first Jamestown colonists wrote about the great fires and how they first assumed it was a signal to far off Indians to gather for war.

>Virginia, between its mountains and the sea, was passing through its fiery ordeal, and was approaching a crisis, at the time the colonists snatched the fagot from the Indian's hand. The tribes were burning everything that would burn, and it can be said with at least as much probability of Virginia as of the region west of the Alleghanies, that if the discovery of America had been postponed five hundred years, Virginia would have been pasture land or desert.

archive.org/details/jstor-1921261

*blocks your path*

>disease comes through
>Tribals make it worse by going to constant war with each to torture and capture captives
>Exterminate their own people to be a minority among minorities in their own homeland

>hey're portrayed as being wardens of nature when....

They almost hunted and trapped every fur bearing critter to extinction in the norther states, just to earn that euro cash / goods from trade.

The natives were pretty much shitbags that sold each other out and tried to exploit the Euro's for their own gains. In the end, their own greed and disregard for each other is what lead to their eventual demise and subjugation by the Europeans.

Whites are doing the same thing to themselves today, only the invaders aren't bringing advanced technology and civilization, they're destroying it.

It's a shame they weren't forced to assimilate. Living in Arizona I see the sad state of Native Americans clinging on to their ancient way of life, completely incompatible with modern society. Drug abuse, alcoholism, and gambling is rampant among the community, and they live in squalor despite government assistance and federal outreach (affirmative action for higher education assistance/sponsorship). The culture doesn't have to disappear entirely, but if they don't assimilate there will be very little left to be proud of after several generations of poverty and a mixed bloodline.

>The natives were pretty much shitbags that sold each other out and tried to exploit the Euro's for their own gains.
Why are you expecting different tribes to all have each other's backs though? I'm sure there was tension between them and they each had something to gain without taking into account the effects it would have hundreds of years down the line. The different European ethnic groups and states would have sold each other out in a heart beat had the roles been reversed. This kind of pan-nationalism your hinting at didn't exist in that context. Also, you're completely ignoring how much disease came into play and the fact that the European's intentions for colonizing the Americas were almost entirely fueled by greed.

>Whites are doing the same thing to themselves today, only the invaders aren't bringing advanced technology and civilization, they're destroying it.
>muh white genocide
Oh, you're one of *those*

>Why are you expecting different tribes to all have each other's backs

I'm not. Because I'm a realist.

People try to shit on the Euros for "colonizing" different lands when they did the same shit that everybody else did, including the "natives", but they just did it better.

>different European ethnic groups and states would have sold each other out in a heart beat

And yet they fought off the Muslim and Asian invasions that plagued Europe for centuries.

Red women lusted after white cock and cucked their men by getting COLONIZED.

Yeah, just like that time France rode in to save Constantinople from the ott- oh wait lol they allied them nvm

Yea, just like how the Muslims ran through France from Spain and Aust....oh wait, they stopped them cold.

Fuck off back to /reddit/tumblr/ where you belong, prissypants.

>People try to shit on the Euros for "colonizing" different lands when they did the same shit that everybody else did, including the "natives", but they just did it better.
Yeah, and how honest are you being when assessing the Native Americans by being a reactionary and completely turning the tables to make them look like the bad guys in that scenario when they were the ones being invaded? Not very. You're calling yourself a realist but you're clearly ruling in favor of one and not the other. The initial events can be viewed neutrally, but the effects it had were utterly detrimental which makes it difficult for some people to digest.

>And yet they fought off the Muslim and Asian invasions that plagued Europe for centuries.
Can you really attribute all of that to some type of pan-European spirit though? The amount of interwarring in Europe should give you some idea on how each group ultimately worked in their own interest. Also, remember in WW2 when Germany and Japan went on expansionist chimp outs and allied with each other? Lol.

Also, why are you putting those words in quotations? Those are the correct terms.

>how honest are you being when assessing the Native Americans

100%.

Unlike you.

They were, and still are, complete shitbags, and that's why they failed to adapt, and why they now live in their ghetto tier "reservations". Fuck them.

We're done, here, skippy.

>they are because they are
Good argument. You've succesfully made your point by abandoning all comventional forms of reason.

lol butthurt

Don't bother user, all you are going to accomplish is making those tendies his mom cooked for him extra tasty tonite.

>why can't we take all the welfare from mexicans and give it to them?
idiot

I always felt the European colonists treated the Indians with the dignity and deference they treated other European nations. That is to say, they were conniving, two-faced backstabbers. The very idea that people outside your group matter at all is quite a modern one, and in much of the world, it still isn't the status quo. Indeed, the names we have for the various Indian tribes are usually the tribe's word for "people" or "The People." If you weren't in the tribe, you weren't people.

I actually feel bad for the Natives, they were nearly wiped out by an epidemic and they fought as hard as they could but they couldn't resist the tide of change, at least they're building their numbers up as of recently.

It wasn't one, they were different disaes than killed portions of them, another a few months later than killed another portion etc. Europeans suffered lots of disaes too there (specially in the jungles, early settlements would be decimated monthly be plagues), but because the ones than were killed could be replaced without affecting the motherlands it isn't considered a factor.

>He oversaw the dispute and managed to negotiate the resolution that neither country could claim right to the territory, but that both countries could trade along the coast and would aid in defense should any hostile country try to claim the area.
That's some fancy talkin' to get this kind of deal.
>we get to govern our land
>but you guys can trade with us and have to protect us

600AD - ~1400AD Muslims capture and old Portugal and parts of Spain
Pre 1200AD Chinese muslims visited America.
1400+ AD Columbus "discovers" America.
Columbus was Portugese.

This obviously was no accident nor a discovery. No way that word of the Americas did not travel through the Islamic world and thus Europe like a wildfire.
/THREAD

No. The Europeans enslaved the Natives, but resorted to using African slaven when the labor made the Natives die by bushes, because they weren't fit for the job.
It was a priest who suggested to switch to Africans btw

Uhm 20 million died from those illnesses out of a 50 - 100 Million people population

>Russell Means
hes one of my heroes

They're responsible for the greatest embarassment the US cavalry have ever suffered
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modoc_War
>120 vs 1000
>Only lose at that point because one of them stabs their leader in the back so he gets immunity from prosecution

It's estimated 90% died from those illnesses.

Sorry, user. I already knew this, having taken a college course on the history of New Spain, but being a Yank, it takes conscious effort to realize things that happened outside our present borders mattered too.

A lot of people don't get this. Disease was absolutely devastating to the natives here, but it wasn't exactly a picnic for the Europeans. If smallpox broke out in a European town or village, even with their knowledge of the disease, even with their quarantine practices, even with their inherited resistance to it, they could still expect to lose between one in four and one in in three of their population.

The fire burning they used was actually great tool for agriculture and forest control.
Their main source of food come from garden likes and forest that was domesticated.
Diseases really fuck natives over.
Early contacts with American Eastern coast told about plenty of native settlement with population big enough to actively prevent landing or any attempt of colonization.
After diseases wipe them over first landing English colonist survive by looting abandoned and empty native settlements. Early reports from colonist told about park like forest that rapidly turn wild because keystone spice - Natives - go almost extinct and abandon their old agriculture methods.

Also slash and burn its non viable method if you have no steel axes to clear forest.

Slave trade and abducting natives also happen in north America.

They were fairly accomplished copper miners/smiths..at least in the North/East United states from Michigan to the Carolinas

Nobody thinks that (after reading) that the conquest was entirely planned or am i the only one?

No,a total of 20 million died, the 90% was taken when they believed that the Native population was around 22 million strong.

You're acting like the case is closed. The Indian population in North America is a hotly debated historical issue and far from settled.

The ones that don't assimilate are the true nationalists.

The main point is that these are the numbers the 90% was based on.
So tell me how 20 million out of 50-100 million native Americans makes 90%?
I'm very interested.

I forget where I heard it, but is it true that the Shaman/Medicine Men (I don't know the exact proper term for it) were never trained or no knowledge was passed down on how to actually cure any people of the tribe, just that they were supposed to follow or look for the signs on how they were to be cured? For example, whatever I was listening to was talking about how a member of the tribe was sick, so the shaman or whatever went out in the middle of the night to pray/meditate and he saw a glint or a sparkle in the forest and he went to it and picked the plant that it came from and made an herbal tea out of it.

Is there any truth to this?

*huffs gasoline*

Not exactly truth but...
Look at this.
>have stable society
>great agriculture
>park like forests full of nuts and fruit trees
>no pests
>no diseases
>knowledge is passed, and you as a shaman train your disciples and educate them well
Then diseases. Nothing that you see before. You have no knowledge how to cure it, no idea of quarantine because there is no similar diseases, nothing. People die like flies and these who survive are often maimed, blinded or broken. It kills most of your disciples. As most of village you live. You can try to train somebody new but they can die soon in the case if you survive which is low because you as shaman take care of the sick.

In short most knowledge die with you and your disciples and it also hit other crafts or arts.
Most knowledge is lost and diseases come each decade(or often).
Some people try to save your civilization from getting destroyed. Ally and confederate, seek knowledge and survival through peace. But if they gather diseases strike(some new strain) and kill them. In the end most of your elites die.
Its truly breakdown of society. The ones that survive revert to more primitive and brutal ways. Old customs and laws are abandoned.
Its kind of Mad max postapocaliptic world where survivors form gangs for protection and brutality rule.
And then come invaders.
They are weak and smelly and do not know how to survive but they bring steel tools and weapons.
Useful against hostile tribes and as a trade partners especially if you keep monopoly. And because they are weak.
But diseases kill more of your people than theirs and they still grow in number as they come from their ships.
its more and more them and less yours.
In the end they grow strong and you grow weak., It the end.
They push, taking lands, breaking treaties they sign when they were weak . Nothing you can do stop them.

The interesting part about natives in USA is like the ones who are more than 1/32 part Indian are rare and here, in South America, like literally everyone in the street has significantly more native blood.

Some deserved it, most did not.

Don't fall for the genocide meme

We are talking about the americas not mexico.

So Mexico isn't a part of the Americas?
Where do you think that largest amount of Natives northern America were concentrated?
And your comment also does nothing to negate the fact that the added file perfectly comes out at the 90% you're trying to push trough, but only at a population of 22 million

>We are talking about the americas not mexico
But Mexico is part of the Americas. What did you mean by this?

The effects of diseases had different effects throughout the americas, mexico is one example, but not the only one. It's not a standard you can apply to the whole continent.

That's ok, however:
What if the Natives received their first wave of plagues after being in contact with the Vikings (whom at the very least were aquinted with christianity)?

So then, the word of the Vikings travelled to South America making it so that the Incan chief could usher the famous words that he had a "vision" of the cross coming to America (i don't know if you have heard about it, but he prophersized that the cross would come to his land, but prophesies are bs so it must have been soemthing else, like a premonition that these savage Vikings would one day come to the south).

Had the Vikings, who were even less into hygienics than the Natives infected them, the natives would have stood no change

This is the only plausible reason i can find for the "mysterious illness that killed the Natives prior to the arrrival of the Spaniards".

And Europe was united by the time Colombus set sial, so there is no reason to assume that the rest of Europe had no knowledge of the discovery made by the Vikings.
Also, the Chinese muslims (and thus Muslims) even went to the Americas on various occasions.
So seeing that Portugal and Spain were under Islamic occupation from 600+AD to 1200+AD one could easily assume that the this knowledge got into Portugese ears, making them more than eager to send Christoffel and a bunch of convicts and pedophiles to scout out that land

This is the conclusion that i get when i put together all the facts we surrounding the "discovery" of the Americas

So you're saying that it's a coincidence that the % of Natives who died from decease in Mexico is the same as "the % of Natives who died from the deceases in the Americas?
You say coincidence, i say mistake and i do not believe in coincidences

>Vikings, who were even less into hygienics than the Natives
I thought Scandies bathed and had haircuts far more often than any other Euros until the 16th century

The Vikings also traded with the Muslims.
They pillaged their neighbours and then sold the neighbours with the spoils.

Aercheological data suggested that, yes.

youtube.com/watch?v=vAXAjZH7hwY&t=0s

People who have been to the Americas prior to Columbus

>Columbus discovered America
>isn't called Columbia
Really makes you think doesn't it?

But that isn't the standard for all of the Americas, that's closer to Mexico.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2730237/

There were two Colombuses. The one who took credit and Colombos (which Colombia is named after).

If those blocked my path I'd just sit and wait for the fuckin "one of us lies, one only tells the truth" puzzle.

Vikings would actually be cleaner than the Conquistadors since they regularly bathed.

That, and I have a feeling there was more swamp ass and BO in central Mexico than there was in Newfoundland.

>believing Chinese state propaganda about Zheng Hi
next you'll tell me you believe that retarded bullshit about pre-Romonov Russia controlling all of Europe

The only thing i am saying is that the "90%" does not refer to the entire Americas, but to Mexico and the article you posted proves that.
The picture i posted here is in that article (which i didn't knew at all).

Ya, but i said that the they were less hygienic than the Natives, at this point the other Europeans hadn't come into the picture yet.
However, i must admit that i do not know if they were less hygienic than the Natives, but we do know that they had bacteria and virusses they were resistant to, but the Natives weren't.
They were like the Quarians in Mass Effect.

>They were like the Quarians in Mass Effect.
Perennial losers?

Problem is that Conquistadors brings pigs with them.

Tali is my Quarian queen

And set them loose so the pigs became wild boars who ravaged the lands, destroyed crops, attacked the Natives and the Conquistadors did this on purpose

Nah.
It was more a typical custom - a moving alongside army food reserve that you do need to feed.
Thing is natives almost completely lack diseases resistance as they have almost none domesticated animals - having wild game reserves instead and fire controlled forest/parks/orchards- natives when weak against diseases are strong against parasitic infections.
Main problem with pigs was that they were often carriers of diseases that could hop on humans and natives lack resistance to them.
Other factor was a bringing African diseases to Americas but its another story.

>that you do not need to feed as its feed themselves

>The only thing i am saying is that the "90%" does not refer to the entire Americas
There's probably a huge chance that it does though, and that also doesn't take into account the extra 5% that died through direct conflict with the Europeans. If that doesn't accurately reflect the percentage of US natives that died, then explain how their population dropped to 250,000 by the end of the 19th century despite having a population of *at least* 2,100,000 pre-colonialism.

"Soon after Europeans and enslaved Africans arrived in the New World, bringing with them the infectious diseases of Europe and Africa, observers noted immense numbers of indigenous Americans began to die from these diseases. One reason this death toll was overlooked is that once introduced, the diseases raced ahead of European immigration in many areas. Disease killed a sizable portion of the populations before European written records were made. After the epidemics had already killed massive numbers of natives, many newer European immigrants assumed that there had always been relatively few indigenous peoples. The scope of the epidemics over the years was tremendous, killing millions of people—possibly in excess of 90% of the population in the hardest hit areas—and creating one of "the greatest human catastrophe in history, far exceeding even the disaster of the Black Death of medieval Europe",[23] which had killed up to one-third of the people in Europe and Asia between 1347 and 1351.

One of the most devastating diseases was smallpox, but other deadly diseases included typhus, measles, influenza, bubonic plague, cholera, malaria, tuberculosis, mumps, yellow fever and pertussis, which were chronic in Eurasia.[29]

This transfer of disease between the Old and New Worlds was later studied as part of what has been labeled the "Columbian Exchange".

The epidemics had very different effects in different regions of the Americas. The most vulnerable groups were those with a relatively small population and few built-up immunities. Many island-based groups were annihilated. The Caribs and Arawaks of the Caribbean nearly ceased to exist, as did the Beothuks of Newfoundland. While disease raged swiftly through the densely populated empires of Mesoamerica, the more scattered populations of North America saw a slower spread."

Alright, but what does all of that have to do with the numbers I gave you?

Sorry bud, but the Spaniards did this this on purpose

"For many natives, on the other hand, the question of eating pigs was not even under consideration. They maintained their traditions of raising crops of corn and beans, and did not see any benefits coming from these new competitors to their land. Even so, and pushed onto ever more marginal plots, these Indians were still affected by the European herds. Cattle reportedly grazed and destroyed Indian croplands, and the pigs followed up by rooting out the leftovers just below the surface, resulting in frequent disputes between natives and colonizers.

Some scholars have reasoned that livestock were a primary cause of the Indians’ rapid decline. Estimates of the Indian population before and after the arrival of Columbus vary, but all are catastrophic. Mexico’s population of roughly 20 million was reduced to 1.6 million by 1618. Crowd diseases like smallpox brought by Europeans originally derived from domesticated animals that lived in close proximity to their human masters in the Old World. Influenza, for example, is known to have come initially from pigs. Although there is no record of an epidemic of this disease in the Indies until 1518, it is possible that strains of the “swine flu” were brought as early as with Columbus’ eight pigs.[13]

The most distressing indications of pigs transmitting disease comes from Soto’s expedition to North America. In the century after Soto visited the Mississippi valley, no Europeans reportedly came, but when the French appeared in the seventeenth century most of the cities and communities Soto encountered had been wiped out— an estimated demographic collapse of 90–96 percent. Ann Ramenofsky and Patricia Galloway speculate that Soto’s hogs might be responsible for the demographic collapse of indigenous populations in the area."

Cont.

Some modern music. Grime and danceable.

youtube.com/watch?v=w3TpDQ0vsB4

youtube.com/watch?v=QbrvwaVXJ48

"Swine can transmit brucellosis, leptospirosis, trichinosis, tuberculosis, and even anthrax, infecting the indigenous human population directly, as well as the deer and turkeys they fed upon. Only a few of Soto’s wandering pigs would have been enough to infect the entire region.[14]

Besides being a carrier of Old World ailments (much like their Spanish masters), livestock like cattle and pigs displaced the Indians on their own land. Former Indian agricultural plots made way for large Spanish pastures for livestock. Fray Antonio de Remesal noted in 1532 that in the Antilles the natives protested the pigs:

In Quito, from at least 1577 through 1584 the Indians complained that “los ganados de los españoles se les comen las sementeras.”[16] Even the cropland that remained was often destroyed by escaping or free-roaming herds.[17] The frequency and similarity of these complaints show that the problem was undoubtedly repeated wherever and whenever the Spanish brought their livestock.

In Mexico City, the Indians complained to the Cabildo, and the Spaniards countered rather speciously that the Indians deliberately planted their crops exactly where these animals would roam.[18] In 1544, the Cabildo petitioned the king to stop the Indians from “disturbing” the livestock:

The Spanish Crown actually prohibited the raising of pigs near Indian agricultural plots in 1549, but given the continuing complaints, there does not seem to be any evidence that such a ban was widely enforced.[20] Similarly, a royal decree was issued in 1549 for Cartagena “prohibiendo que los españoles crien puercos en los poblados indios de encomiendas,”[21] but its effect is not readily apparent."

So everyobdy knew about the effects the pigs owuld have and Natives themselves didn't even eat pork.

Just read the first and last sentence of the first paragraph

First expeditions completely did not.

Check out the Iroquois History and Legends Podcast. I'm not very knowledgeable on the subject so I can't vouch for its accuracy but I find it a fascinating insight into Native American history.

By all accounts he was an exceptional politician. He even mastered European table manners and impressed everyone who met him with his elegance and charm.

He was also presumably something of a Europhile, and named one of his sons Napoleon.

Do the chiefs of the various tribes issue public statements on Pocahontas and Sacajawea?

What do they think of them?

>>no pests
>>no diseases
That's retarded, they had them, only than the new ones were more virulent to them.