European Islam

Okay OP i'l; actually answer insead of shitpost

Well for a more extreme example look up Bektashi Islam. Basically developed for Albanian converts back in the Ottoman days, basically its lax on pork and alcohol, prayers infuse esoteric Sufi practices and use the Albanian language. but this is an extreme example.
>Would it be as comfy as vid related?
If you mean Islamic communities developing independent of Immigrant influence, then absolutely you'de expect it to have a much more european flavor. However, unlike the video you posted in actual practice most European converts tend to be introduced to it through already established immigrant communities. Look up Hamza Yusuf, the most influential white convert around now, his practice is the same as your usual eastern and African Muslim. If anything, Islamic practice in the west is more Arab in practice than in say Turkey, or Indonesia, etc where local customs hold more sway.
>Which characteristics of European culture would mesh most easily with Islam, and which would conflict most?
Conflicting: I think the biggest thing is that Prayers are required in Arabic(traditionally) even if you don't know what you are saying(like the majority of Muslims). Also some aspects of Islamic gender roles might hurt western sensibilities( men always lead from the front over women), Homosexuality is generally completely forbidden( though some fringe progressive mosques in Sweden want to challenge that), also Islam tends to have much less room for personal interpretation and accommodation compared to how Christianity has been watered down over the centuries

Most favorable :
Well there's the fact that the figures and narrative in the Quran should be quite familiar to most Christians( Mary, Jesus,Joseph ,Moses etc etc are all there) basically Islam sees itself as completing what Abraham began. If you have conservative values regarding family then it might be quite amicable to you as well.

Great post, user, thanks but
>Hamza Yusuf
He's a bad example since he's American and America is a cultureless shithole. There are European examples like Tim Winter that fit that description, though, so I know what you mean.

Basically the video answers many of your questions as to what it would LOOK like, as in religious art.

Arabic would be treated kind of like Latin by Catholics.

I suspect Imams, theology and philosophy would be more strongly influenced by:
- Greeks like Plato, Aristotle, Plotinus;
- the Kalam;
- the Falsafah, i.e. Al-Kindi, Al-Farabi, Avicenna and Averroes;
- likely a few ideas from non-Islamic theologians like Augustine, Maimonides and Aquinas;
- the perennial philosophy and Baha'i ("124,000 prophets" were sent to the world, says a hadith)
- possibly even the Mu'tazila;
more than anything you see in the Middle East, which owes much to Al-Ghazali, and unfortunately Al-Wahhab for Salafism.

Qur'anic hermeneutics will emphasize the relevance of the Meccan surahs on interfaith relations and being the better part of Islam.

I expect a lot of interest in Sufism.
I don't really think Quranism is going to build particularly large communities even in Europe.

It will if you keep sponsoring your own goddam barbarian migration.

that sounds like a god-tier religion

fair enough. I'm living in Canada so my frame of reference is North America where immigrant culture tends to mesh the average plebshit Muslim together creating some weird hybrid Islamic culture . oddly enough enough though, Britain is seen as producing basically the top tier of Islamic scholarship easily rivaling any where in the Middle East

Europeans would manage to fuck it up just like they fucked up Christianity with Protestantism.

qz.com/616573/a-women-led-mosque-in-denmark-is-eager-to-challenge-the-patriarchy/

Also AMA I'm a former Muslim from Poland and a current Catholic.

>Bosnia is not Muslim majority, since Orthodox and Catholics combined have a higher percentage of the population.
Uh, no? Muslims make just over 50% of the population. And even if it fell below 50% it would still be the dominant religion by far.
As for the last one I'm guessing it's Kosovo.

Don't you find Catholicism kinda mordbid? It comes off as "Feel Guilty About Eveything: The Religion".

are you a tatar?
if so, KYS traitor.

Specifically? It has very similar tenets to Islam, but I feel like the Church is more understanding that we're sinners striving to follow these rules. Christianity believes in a loving God.

Whereas in Islam I found that they enforced rules that none of them followed and it was hypocrisy all around.

I like to think of it this way: the Church is a field hospital for sinners, not a hotel for saints.
>tatar
Yes.
>if so, KYS traitor.
Why? If you look deeper into Islam, you'll realize that it's a false religion created by a false brother, my brother.

a false religion created by a false prophet*

>implying Sharia law wouldn't bring order and righteousness back to Europe's degenerate decadent culture

Our ancestors died fighting for our faith, but to be honest, Lipkas were never real tatars in the first place so I take that back. Do as well pleases you

>no pork, circumcision, reverence for the hebrew language, polygamy
Well the Jews assimilated okay with those parameters (they did abandon polygamy eventually, like most European muslims)
As for alcohol, prohibition and temperance were quite European for a while (Scandinavia still tightly regulates it) while the European Muslim countries allow alcohol.

You sound like typical 'muh heritage' Americans.

I invite you to look deeper into Islam beyond a sense of culture and realizes its errors.

I guess young adult muslims would be better companions that young adult christians.
Having lived in Milan for most of my life, I've been in contact with these cultures for my entire lives (there are lots of arabs and north africans in Milan), and if they have to be honest, most of them were baller af.
Even the most religious ones always had an edge that was also extremely hilarious to me. On the other hand actually devout christians are often a bore to hang out with, unless they're well-read, which happens often if you meet most of your acquaintances and friends in university. Christians who are not independent in their thinking are usually too concerned with being nice for them to be interesting in the slightest. On the other hand clueless devout muslims are always zesty in their remarks, without almost never falling into vulgarity, since they're trying t mantain a dignified facade (which of course stems from their religion) with their peers.

Still, I'm pretty sure it would be pure Hell for women and LGBTQ+ people. Regardless of how much Veeky Forums despises, let's say, trans people, their percieved faults certainly do not match the punishment they would get in a Islamic society, which to me immediatly disqualify its ethical validity (but of course this apply to most theocracies in history, rather than contmporary Islam in particular).

Are you a believer yourself?

>dignified facade
It's not a "dignified facade", it's a form of good manners known as "adab".
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adab_(Islam)
>pure hell for women
no
m.youtube.com/watch?v=hu2swFMCLJ0

Muslim immigrant youth are too edgy. They also tend to drink and sleep around but still think they are good Muslims

They stop being European when they convert

>trans people
In some Muslims countries they are more okay with those than with masculine men taking it up the ass, and subsidize transition for homosexuals. In others (like Egypt apparently) they crack down on trans people primarily. It's weird.

interesting, its like a blende of Medieval tapestry Islamic art, and cubism

>100 AD
"Those Christians stop being Roman when they convert "
>500 AD
"Those Saxons stop being Saxons when they stop worshipping Woden"
>present day
...

If you watched the video their simple style of arabic calligraphy is p cool too

I've been raised catholic, and I'm currently rediscovering my faith. At the moment I'm reading and studying the Bible with a great theologian and a group of other 9 students.

>It's not a "dignified facade", it's a form of good manners known as "adab".
Dignified facade was not meant as a pejorative, in fact I've remarked that it was a good thing just a few words earlier: I appreciate the fact that even the most ignorants believers never end up adopting forms of humour that are essentially vulgar. In the christian world this is usually avoided through bigotry, which is not something I'm really fond of.

>pure hell for women
>no
Should I really care about the fact that some women will appreciate this lifestyle? I'd rather grant them the possibility of doing so in a free society, which is something that one can do in most countries.
The horror starts when this is applied at a state level: certain women are clearly not meant to be devout muslims, and I don't think I've got the right to force them to adopt this ideology.

>They also tend to drink and sleep around but still think they are good Muslims
This seems pretty common in every major religion: I'd say that it is normal for young adults to have sex and drink every once in a while in general.

In a way those things aren't wrong

One thing that bugs me about Islam is their attitude toward mustaches. First of all the mustacheless-beard look is horrid, secondly why can't I grow a nice twirly mustache?

Honestly, I have no idea what I'm talking about, but somehow I've gotten the impression that mustaches are frowned upon.

This. Europe will be majority Muslim in the future and that is a good thing. Hopefully the teaching of Allah (pbuh) will help the Europeans come to grips with their colonialist/capitalist past.

>I've been raised catholic, and I'm currently rediscovering my faith. At the moment I'm reading and studying the Bible with a great theologian and a group of other 9 students.
I'm glad you found your way back, mate. :)

God bless you.

>in the christian world this is usually avoided through bigotry
Not sure what you're saying here. Could you elaborate? How is vulgar humor averted through bigotry?

>Hopefully the teaching of Allah (pbuh) will help the Europeans come to grips with their colonialist/capitalist past.

But Islam clearly supports both colonialism and capitalism. After all, Muhammed was a merchant whose companions created a colonial empire

Its a hadeeth (saying) of the Prophet for Muslims to grow their beards and to trim mustaches to be different from the disbelievers. You can grow mustaches but trim them so they don't go over your lip, like pic related I'd say.

Also this

Thats a subset of Muslims called Salafis.
Most Muslims just keep regular beards

>Stoning people who commit adultery
>Whipping/cutting off of hans for theft and robbery

I'm not a Muslim but I absolutely support this

ok so one can grow them long on the sides but not over the lip?

Another question for you guys: I noticed in OPs video they never seem to wear a headcovering (the males i mean) while praying? Is that not a requirement? Is it a Sunni thing (dudes in the video are Shi'i)?

That is not needed, but can be worn, its all up to the person. There are some sayings that the Prophet used to keep his head covered during prayers but its not totally confirmed so its whatever.

The playfulness that so easily falls into vulgarity is suppressed by adopting a rather stiff and ''concerned'' character. This has been my experience so far with Catholics.
You go from lively muslims to idea-policing Christians, who will dissect every single one of your sentence, searching for sins, flaws and possible implications to what is deemed as immoral.

Of course I harbor no hate and no contempt cause of it, but the original question of this post was about comfiness, and how entertaining are the members of a certain religion is certainly part of said comfiness.

Its not required though it is Sunnaht that was once historically observed to differentiate Muslims from non-Muslims but now a days its more common for Shiites to wear it than Sunnis.

If you're interested in asthetics, honestly though i'm Sunni i'd say Shiites have much more in that regard

Interesting view, thanks.

>If you're interested in asthetics, honestly though i'm Sunni i'd say Shiites have much more in that regard
I disagree. Shiites are more monolithic. Sunni world is massive and diverse. You got different aestheics based on what part of the Sunni world you find yourself in.

well the thing is Shiites have a certain standerdized form of religious art and garb whereas religiously Sunnis tend to wear boring robes and simple skullcaps to the most. And they don't even condone religious painting for the most part
The clothing you seem to be alluding to has to do with local tradition and culture. For example Christian Caucasians wear a similar attire in your pic related as well

If you wanted to see weird Islamic sects that infuse culture check out the Alevis and their weird dance/prayers
>youtube.com/watch?v=IDYhq8vhu6c

If europe converted to islam would they not circumsize like the romans and greeks did not circumsize when they converted to judaism 2.0 because genital mutilation is retarded?

Since the only way to convert europeans is through taqiyya and denying hadiths and certain parts of the quran(women must breastfeed men to prevent them from lusting, the sun sets in a muddy spring, the earth sits on the back of a whale), then european islam would be heretical according to arab and turkish salafists.

>taqiyya
Tell me about this "taqiyya", o wise one. What is it?

Lying about the true tenets and beliefs of islam to make it more palatable to potential converts.

Muslims claiming that mohamed bettered women's rights or was antislavery is classic taqiyya

My god, that's awful. Please provide me with your many credible sources for this claim, as I am sure you have many to spare.

Classic taqiyya

youtube.com/watch?v=qle_4qiH4tU

youtube.com/watch?v=yexjCT4TKms

literally none of those things are remotely in the Quran. Otherwise you'd be able to provide verse and Ayat number for them

youtube.com/watch?v=6F4wBeshTsw

>Acts17apologetics
>converted2islam
Wow, case closed I guess.

Sahih Hadiths are second only in authority to the quran. If a hadith's is authentic then its teachings are considered obligatory in islam, and Bukhari's hadith's are authentic.

this is in the quran meanwhile. Are you gonna say that the verse doesn't exist? if you say it isn't literal you're commiting blasphey because according to the quran itself all revelations are clear and literal.

youtube.com/watch?v=UVwizsojd1Y

The hadith and quran verses presented are still true. Or do you only accept the word of silamic scholars?

islamqa.info/en/83423

According to the islamic scholars themselves, you should go drink some camel urine because mohamed considered it a medicine.

>as a non-Muslim, my version of Islam is the infallibly correct one.
cool story, would read again

They're only reciting islamic scripture. muslims commiting taqiyya by lying about islam's true morals in front of westerners are the ones presenting their own versions of "islam"

As an authority on the subject you should obviously correct them about their own religion.

>the tired old "if you're not a muslim you know nothing about islam"

And yes, if I know and read this scripture then I know the true nature of islamic values more. Besides, there are people who follow these teachings. Look at the gulf monarchies. And I don't want my country to be like them.

You still haven't refuted any of the scripture presented.

ok start here
google.com/amp/s/splendidpearls.org/2015/03/30/shaykh-abdal-hakim-murads-book-recommendations/amp/

my only complaint about that list
>islam is a religion that's over a thousand years old
>many old books that can be easily accessed online for free
>no recommendation on his list older than 1975 despite a plethora of good older books
give us your shekels goyim: the reading list

>gives random islamic propaganda written by a convert that I can't have access to

Where do these books rationally justify these given verses?

You obviously can't get around these ridiculous verses and you know they're ridiculous and prove that islam is an irrational cult so you just pass the ball to a scholar and expect that I should believe him since he's an "authority".

>islam is a religion that's over a thousand years old

Appeal to the ancients fallacy

This is what European Islam looks like. The same shit as everywhere else.

Do you intentionally ignore the hadith and quranic verses I presented?

BTW the way you muslims fight uncomfortable questions by just expecting us to believe your scholars is equivalent to claiming that people are unfit being unfit to criticize nazi ideology because they haven't read David Irving yet.

I'm always interested to hear the stories of those who convert from Islam to Christianity, and to Catholicism more so!

Do tell, how did you start your conversion? Have you received Eucharist yet? Confirmation? How do you feel about the fact Islam says you should be killed for leaving? How has your family taken it?

>uses obviously faulty argument style of posting 2 minute youtube videos and random quotes
>expects me to refute his arguments using the same shitty methods as if that would even prove anything
babby tier desu, put in some actual work into understanding the religion

I think that's one of the issues. It becomes very easy to dismiss critics who don't understand Arabic because it's a false translation or something like that.

...

>random quotes
those are quotes from sahih hadiths and the quran, they're not random.

I gave you the verses to show that islam is morally questionable, you evade my assertion

>put in some actual work into understanding the religion
I've read the whole Al-Bukhari hadith and the Qurtubi tafsirs, they both reaffirm and don't refute those morally questionable verses.

I read the commentaries of several islamic scholars, and they also confirm that these verses are morally correct, which I simply can't agree. Notice how you evaded answering the link where the islamic scholars said that drinking camel urine is healthy because the hadith verse says so.

So I've understood islam sufficientlyn and I find it distasteful.
But that's moot, the content of these verses is clear, and

Except people like TheMaskedArab and Converted2Islam know arabic and still confirm the immoral meaning of the verses. Converted2Islam was also an Islamic scholar for 16 fucking years. You can't just say that he doesn't know anything about islam.

so much this

Why do you think that quotes and youtube vids are arguments? You think I don't have my own cache of youtube vids I could toss your way? I just know how futile that would be since nothing could be easier to refute (i.e. all you'd have to do is post your own vid in response leading to a never ending shitfest of youtube links). It's not an argument. Guess what? Islamic fiqh is complicated as hell. There is no easy version.

Redpill me on Russian Islam

Meanwhile, in Christendom...

The Alevi are awesome

t. Alevi

What is the Turkish sect that I was reading about that are denied as Muslims by most of the Muslims in Turkey?
They seemed more reasonable than most Muslims, i.e. female participation in services, non-literal Qur'an etc.

We don't really practice the Islam most people know and are comfortable with. If anything I'd call it a mixture of Shama ism/Buddhism/and millenianist Shia islam

Persecuted since the 1400s we still amke up the vast majority of Turkish culture

>tatar
>actually being muslim

pic one

-t. volga tatar

Europeans came to countries like India, colonized it, terrorized its citizens, and killed them. I do not like Muslims but this is karmic justice.

But I'm no "barbarian" by any stretch of the word, the only MENA country I've visted is Egypt and it's the only time I ever vised mosques, for secular touristic purposes.

I really don't think the whole package of Islamic jurisprudence with corporal punishment, mutilation, death penalty, etc. is going to be cared about by an "European Islam" that much. If you look at the larger Islamic communities in Europe they disagree with those of the countries closer to the Arabian peninsula. Majority and minority are switched around.

I'm positive there will still be circumcision. Otherwise "European Islam" will be within constitutional parameters and international law, with a minority of crazed fundies.

The real question is how relevant can "European Islam" and "non-European Islam in Europe" when it's voting time, and what would they vote for. Will they join the Christian conservatives in Europe? I think they might, given that many are Catholics, who aren't as stupid as American Evangelicals that would do everything in their power to make sure Muslims vote for their political opponents, forever.

Also notice how the "foreign fighters" that joined for ISIS went to Iraq and Syria instead of doing the fighting here.

Anyway, Islam is one of the world's great religion, mosques, even very large ones are already in Europe and more will be built, this is a fact, which is why I chose to reply to this thread seriously. Because - seriously - it's not going to disappear.

The balkans and ukrainians never colonized yet they suffered the most from Islamic slave raids and forced conversions

Forget the videos. Focus on the verses. Also are you saying sahih hadiths and quarnic verses are merely quotes.

>I just know how futile that would be since nothing could be easier to refute

Then refute me claiming that islam is immoral because the verses in the hadiths and the quran are immoral.

Post a video if you want so i can refute it

>Islamic fiqh is complicated as hell.

You really seem to want to hold nonbelievers to a much higher standard of understanding of islam than actual muslims.

I see you're going for the "Islam is too complicated for anyone other than islamic scholars to understand so it shouldn't be criticized. Allahu akbar!!!!11" fallacy

I interpreted those verses in one way.

Some people from the tribe of 'Ukl came to the Prophet and embraced Islam. The climate of Medina did not suit them, so the Prophet ordered them to go to the (herd of milch) camels of charity and to drink, their milk and urine (as a medicine).
Sahih Bukhari 8:82:794

It says that the prophet thinks camel urine is medicine. What is here to be interpreted?

And they ask you about Dhul-Qarnain. Say: “I shall recite to you something of his story.” Verily, We established him in the earth, and We gave him the means of everything. So he followed a way. Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a people.

Qur’an 18:83-86.

The sun sets in a muddy spring. Whats to be reinterpreted?

>I'm positive there will still be circumcision.

Most europeans view it as unhealthy genital mutilation, so they will have to pay off a lot of doctors to propogate otherwise against science. Besides its not mandatory in Islam, so this practice might be dropped.

Everything civilized upstanding white people do is going to end up comfy.

In Christianity you have the book of Acts in which the Council of Jerusalem decrees that Gentiles within Chirstianity aren't to be circumcised.

Islam is an universalist religion, and "European Islam" won't give a damn about the difference between Arabs and Mawali (i.e. non-Arab Muslims), let alone continuing any historical conflicts between them, because it'd be a religion by Mawali for Mawali.

Circumcision is universally accepted among all Islamic schools jurisprudence, it seems the least likely "bloody" feature of Islam to go away. Only Quranists don't do that, and their numbers as I said I believe to be insignificant to build anything but tiny communities.

>Most europeans view it as unhealthy genital mutilation
I wonder how they intend to combat this practice within Orthodox Judaism, though... In Islam you often get circumcised at a much later age, too.