But muh grumman designs

>if it has disadvantages then it's a meme
It was the first jet fighter, fielded in a hurry by a bomb raped nation that was losing the war
i don't think you know what a meme is

Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling it a meme because I think it's not a good bird. It was definitely very revolutionary. I'm calling it a meme because producing 262s was a very bad decision. The things were very resource-intensive and labour-intensive (not to mention fuel-intensive, and at the time when Germany was rapidly running out of fuel), and required highly experienced pilots (at the time when Germany was rapidly running out of them, too). There's a very good reason why all other countries kept producing props until the end of the war despite jet technology being known since very early in the war (there were experimental jet planes as early as 1940).

Then it isn't a meme plane.

Please, be very strict about what is allowed to be called a meme and what is not.

It's what it mean that makes it great more than what it was.

i think it's all about the meme value of a plane

>There's a very good reason why all other countries kept producing props until the end of the war despite jet technology being known since very early in the war (there were experimental jet planes as early as 1940).
The British jet design was shit and didn't invent it like people claim though, the Germans got it right and invented the one we use today

Like the horten ho 229. Had it been invented sooner, it would've given the Germans an advantage. The Horten Ho 229 couldn't be detected by radar, so arguably the first type of Stealth plane.

THE JUG

The British design was inferior, but it was a hell of a lot easier to make, given the wartime situation; as a result, it was far more reliable than the German Jumos.

That's almost like saying if the Americans invented the F-117 sooner, it would have given them an advantage. The fact was that the Germans could not afford to build and maintain their fancier tech.

Honestly, I don't think any WW2 belligerent could really afford to use jet aircraft extensively. They were far more complicated to build and maintain, made extensive use of strategic materials, and consumed more fuel than piston aircraft. It's hard to see how having more Me-262 or having them earlier could have helped Germany's strategic situation. In that sense, the notion that the Me-262 could have made an impact had it been introduced in larger numbers or at an earlier date is erroneously propagated, which can be considered memetic.

That's the Brewster Buffalo, regarded as one of the worst planes of the war.

>couldn't be detected by radar

Oh fuck off retard it had a smaller RCS but only about 20% less than a bf-109 or fw-190 far far away from what we mean by "stealth"

But Britain and the US did have jet fighters.
They just didn't use them because it was a waste of resources.

I know. It just looks like a baby P-47 so much.

*warcrimes you*

>the Finns managed a 33 to 1 kill ratio against the Russians in them

>I'm calling it a meme because producing 262s was a very bad decision.
Wrong. Hitler made a bad decision in 1942 when the plane was ready by saying - change it into a bomber. So 262 went into service in 1944 when it was too late. 1200 built. 300 flew. Scored 700+ kills. Meme dictator, not a meme plane.

Almost everything you've said is wrong. THe Me-262 did not have a longer development cycle than the FW-190. There were 1420 built, and they scored 542 kills. The main reason that not all of them flew had to do with a lack of trained pilots, which would have been the case in any event. The plane was mechanically unreliable, and had a worse kill per sortie record than the FW-190. It was a meme plane.

Not this one?

Outta my way, kraut fucking shits

And because they where at prototype level at best and vastly inferior to the 262.

*doesn't anymore*

> THe Me-262 did not have a longer development cycle than the FW-190
Irrelevant if true. Hitler slowed down production by his decision.

>There were 1420 built
Yes, I was wrong

>scored 542 kills
Disputable. Some sources claim 900.
>The total number of victories scored by Me 262s is uncertain, but is authoritatively put at more than 735.
Roger ford-Germany's Secret weapons of WWII

Being outnumbered and piloted often by inexperienced pilots, those planes in their early and of course not without flaws versions had amazing score.

> On 18 March 1945, 37 Me 262s of JG 7 intercepted a force of 1,221 bombers and 632 escorting fighters. They shot down 12 bombers and one fighter for the loss of three Me 262s.

This man has lived a more interesting and full life than many Kings and Emperors and lived long enough to tweet about it on the netwebs.

Holy shit, he's still ALIVE? I read his biography like 10 fucking times, he's my hero

>Irrelevant if true. Hitler slowed down production by his decision.
From Wages of Destruction, by Adam Tooze, 2006, page 621

>The first designs for the ME 262 were brought to Hitler's attention in the summer of 1942 and he immediately gave it his enthusiastic backing. By the end of may 1943, after further testing, the Air ministry committed itself definitively to pushing the aircraft into mass-production and began to exert severe pressure on Messerschmitt to devote all its resources to the project. If there was any obstacle to accelerated production at this point, it came from Messerschmitt. After the war Willy Messerschmitt and Ernst Heinkel liked to suggest to their audience that the Me 262 was 'ready' in 1943, or even in 1942. But this is grossly misleading. In any aircraft development programme, the step from prototype to series production is preceded by literally thousands of hours of testing. This is then followed by experimental series production. Only after completing this indispensable learning process is it safe to invest heavily in mass-production facilities. In 1943, Messerchmitt was still recovering from the disaster it had experienced with the over-hasty series production of the Me 210. Instead of forcing the ME 262 into mass production, Messerschmitt therefore offered the Air Ministry an entire portfolio of designs, including a conventional piston-engined replacement for the Me 109 fighter.

>Indeed, Messerschmitt intrigued with Speer throughout 1943 to obstruct Milch's efforts to concentrate all available resources on the Mass-production of the jet. The main technical problems, in any case, concerned not the airframe but the engines, the truly revolutionary element of the design. Even if prototypes were being successfully tested, the world's first operational jet engine was still far from ready for mass production. Given the enormous technological obstacles that had to be overcome, not only in mass producing an entirely new kind of propulsion system, but doing so whilst economizing on high performance alloy metals, this is hardly surprising. Despite the extraordinary pace of the development work the Junkers-Jumo jet engine was not ready even for limited series production before the summer of 1944.

Internal citations omitted. Notice how "Hitler" isn't even mentioned. Stop talking out of your ass.

>Disputable. Some sources claim 900.
Some sources claim that the Germans killed more planes over the Crimean campaign than the Soviets had. There were 542 confirmed kills. Green, William (1970). Warplanes of the Third Reich. New York: Galahad Books. ISBN 0-88365-666-3.

>Muh ANECDOTES!

>Hitler’s constant meddling, though, pulled precious time and resources from fighter development to produce a modified Me-262 bomber
>Galland remained critical of using the 262 as a bomber, a role it was not designed to play. He remained firmly convinced that the fighter jet could have been put into combat “at least a year and a half earlier” without Hitler’s interference, “and built in large enough numbers so that it could have changed the air war.”
nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-me-262-the-nazi-super-jet-hitler-hoped-could-save-20474?page=2

Even if Galland exagerated - fuck you.

>There were 542 confirmed kills. Green, William (1970).
Do you have a direct quote? Because polish wiki cites the same book claiming it's 900.

What's your issue with Grumman?

>> outclimbed by late-war prop fighters
Uhh...no. You are stupid. It was rocket propelled.

*blocks your path*
*torpedoes your entire fleet*

Other countries had the numbers though, Germany didn't. I don't think not-producing the Me262 would have made a difference (not that putting it in operation earlier would have changed the outcome either - at worse Germany gets nuked). Tactically it was a good call because it was the best fighter aircraft of its time.

Somehow. There's pictures of him flying the YF-23 in the 90s, and I think he did some event in a F-15 a few years ago.

*mines you're shipping lanes*
*flies above you're aa and interceptors*
*drops pumpkin bomb on u*
*nukes you're city*
*nukes you're city (again)*
*circumnavigates the globe*
*refuels u midair*
*drops experimental aircraft*
*gets copied by the soviets*
*drops experimental nuclear weapons*
*becomes AWACs*
*becomes airliner*
*carries your outsized cargo*
psssshhhh...
Nothin perssonal, every other aircraft manufacturer! (except avro your cool k)

Just imagine starting off your aviation career in an era only 40 years removed from the first powered flight, and ending it flying 5th generation jet fighters. That's some crazy shit right there.

>ywn fly all the cool experimental planes from the late 40s to the 70s

Weren't the Russians still relying in some capacity on I-15s until the start of the 40's? It's probably another case of Russia's inferior training and infrastructure more than the superiority of the aircraft itself.

>men who shot down loads of meatgrinder untrained krauts in their every more juryrigged luftwaffe over the vasty skies of europe ended their careers wasting legions of asian commie thralls flying disposable migs at supersonic speeds

>literally a blog from an openly biased news site with a clickbaity title
vs
>A well researched book from a respected historian
user pls.

>muh galland
No, it was quite possibly every single Experten, especially on the Eastern Front. If we want to continue the Crimea point that the one user brought up, I can throw around some real numbers and thoroughly shit on the claims of the three highest scoring aces in history. If you want, I can break out all the numbers for you. But the short version is:
>high-end claims from combined kills of II./ and III./JG 52 and II./SG 2 amount to something on the order of 4-5,000 aircraft
>"conservative" German claims still amounted to over 1,000 planes
>The two Soviet air armies committed to the theater never committed even 1,000 planes to the operation
>Soviet admitted losses were a few short of 200
>Rall, Barkhorn, and Hartmann all participated in the campaign
>Barkhorn was credited with 50 kills alone during the 1943 phase of the operation
>Hartmann flew with III./JG 52 during the final month when ~16 planes supposedly shot down 1,000 aircraft.

Somewhat. I-15s and I-153s were mostly shifted to ground attack units by 1941, although obsolete I-16s still made up the bulk of the VVS fighter arm, particularly around Leningrad. Granted, the Buffalo was an incredibly shitty fighter, but the Finns somehow had the magical ability to fly their fighters better than anyone else. It definitely helped that Soviet doctrine was retarded in 1941
>no radios
>no fighter escort
>fighters won't even keep formation
>many pilots haven't even fired their guns
>crews for "modern" types have single-digit hours in their planes
But they seemed to perform relatively well even after Novikov reformed the VVS.

...