So how did European Jews pretty much end up looking identical to whites if they were mostly insular and no church or...

in what cases would a christian marry a jew. And if so, How would these unions be common enough for the jewish population to pretty much european genetics ?

again , genuinely asking

medieval europe wasnt exactly a centralised bureaucracy. this was a world where to avoid taxes you simply had to hide when the official came to town.

This>for that to happen jews would have had to have to have pretty much lived in Europe well before the neolithic age

The ones who have been in the US for 5 generations may or may not, but that's entirely different than asking about Jews in Europe during a time where the communities were not fluid

2000 years of natural selection. Also rape.

In a lot of cases, I'd guess the Christian would convert. And let's not forget that Jewish presence in Europe long predates the establishment of an actual Christian Church with real political power that's trying to stop people from converting or marrying out. On the other side of the chronological spectrum, post-enligthenment, these things aren't as big of a deal anymore. You had a LOT of intermarriage in the 19th centuries, and that's plenty of time to substantially alter the genetic makeup of a minority population.

But I'm hardly an expert.

The fact that the Catholic church issued bans on the marriage of a Christian to a Jew is a pretty good indication that it happened.

khazaria

A lot of the celebrities posted like Brie are half North-West European. Even Middle-Eastern/Northern Euro mixes can come out looking pretty northern euro.

I've met ashkenazi who were pretty dark and I thought they were mizrahi at first.

I think sexual selection, as well as that bit of central european admixtue they have is why some full ashkenazi can have fair features. Even Sephardim can be quite fair as well. And that can't be attributed to Northern European admixture.

okay she's a bad example but your average Ashkenazi jew, even before the end of widespread anti-semitism in europe looks pretty european.
so your saying that Christians raping Jewish women might have helped? I can't imagine if a union between a christian man and jewish women the children wouldn't be raised a christian

Most times any intermarriage between Jew and Christian involved converts to Christianity, and then they'd be Christians.

Judaism was very tribal at the time, and may not have accepted converts depending on the area

>judaism is matriliineal, which means they can have gentile sperm donors and still be kosher.
>Also rape.
>judaism is matriliineal, which means they can have gentile sperm donors and still be kosher.
genetic studies show that it's mostly gentile women that are converting. which makes sense if you think about it: despite jewish law they don't particularly like giving their daughters over to foreigners. and anyway judaism allows conversion.

in that case they would have looked Turkish

interesting. for a relatively insular community Jews do tend to start looking like the locals of wherever they settle

There's also the fact that Semites and White people don't look that different.

A Semite in a cold area is not going to be heavily tanned, and many Europeans have black hair.

>it's mostly gentile women that are converting
You'de think medieval Christians would be up in arms if a Jew dared marry a Christian woman.

>Judaism was very tribal at the time, and may not have accepted converts depending on the area
.t I have no idea what I'm talking about and never have.

Go look up the book of Ruth.

Nah, it wasn't like that everywhere and all the time. That's a cartoonish picture of medieval europe.

>Canon 67: Jews may not charge extortionate interest.
>Canons 68: Jews and Muslims shall wear a special dress to enable them to be distinguished from Christians so that no Christian shall come to marry them ignorant of who they are.
>Canon 69: Declares Jews disqualified from holding public offices, incorporating into ecclesiastical law a decree of the Holy Christian Empire.
>Canon 70: Takes measures to prevent converted Jews from returning to their former belief

Fourth Lateran council invoked by pope Innocent III

So in a few short generations to a number of centuries can we expect all the Muslim/paki immigrants in Europe to start looking European?

Oh yeah, European Jews were totally fine with their daughters marrying goyim, oh wait. Go watch Fiddler on the Roof.

No, because they're content on building their own little Pakistans

Jewish male Gentile female pairings are more controversial, it does not observe Halaka.

Tevye was still kind of mad, though

If they were the interbreed with Europeans all the time they would look pretty European in like three generations.

exactly my point. The Jews were ghettoized and also isolated themselves. How did they pick up European phenotype at a rate that would allow it to become predominant in the Jewish population

A difference of dress distinguishes Jews or Saracens from Christians in some provinces, but in others a certain confusion has developed so that they are indistinguishable. Whence it sometimes happens that by mistake Christians join with Jewish or Saracen women, and Jews or Saracens with christian women. In order that the offence of such a damnable mixing may not spread further, under the excuse of a mistake of this kind, we decree that such persons of either sex, in every christian province and at all times, are to be distinguished in public from other people by the character of their dress -- seeing moreover that this was enjoined upon them by Moses himself, as we read.

1215 AD.

Because the populations were initially tiny, and European Jews are inbred to fuck, which is why they suffer so much from diseases like Tay-Sach's, so it doesn't take long for a little admixture to reach saturation.

I always see converts cite the book of Ruth. But it's possible it never happened. Proselytism was pretty rare historically, and endogamy was common to all ethnic groups.
And the Moabites were a Semitic and related ethnic group, and were probably very genetically similar to Israelites.

There might have been small windows of time where the odd marriage/conversion took place. But you're right both groups would have been against interfaith marriages.

I think people exaggerate Ashkenazi appearances. They forget the Serge Gainsbourg looking ones, and pretend they all look like Zuckerberg.

Levantine ethnic groups like Jews and Samaritans aren't too dissimilar looking to Southern Europeans.

You guys are ignoring the most important fact:

Jews are shapeshifting lizards who can look like whatever population is hosting them.

So, your argument about Jewish religious practice is a PLAY? Hey, did you know that Italian city states encouraged suicide among their young noble classes for minor romantic tiffs? Go watch Romeo and Juliet.

Meanwhile, your "argument" doesn't even address the issues of conversion. Tevye is upset precisely because Chava wants to marry a non-Jew, not a convert, which is a jew.

It does raise an interesting question:

Are Muslims in europe today basically the way Jews were in the Roman empire ?
both...
>got btfoed
>started immigrating to Europe
>seen as foreign miltant religion
>refuse to assimilate
>constantly starting religious revolts
granted of coarse Muslims have done a lot more to provoke the west than jews ever did(since if they did 1/10 of Islam has done they'd be crucified)

>But it's possible it never happened
Pic related. Whether or not it (or any other major story in the Bible) happened isn't the point. The religious "party line" is that it DID happen, and that the Davidic dynasty is descended from converts.

Romeo and Juliet was written by an Englishman.

Fiddler on the Roof was written by a Jew who knew what the community was like. You sourced the Book of Ruth which was 1500 years before the time period in question, and in a who other part of the world, so I thought it acceptable.

>Jewish male Gentile female pairings are more controversial
they aren't controversial at all if the woman converts. on the other hand jewish men are very reluctant to marry their daughters off to gentile men even if those men convert.

Islam is universalist, proselytizing Judaism, there is much syncretism in their (double) standards and practice

That still doesn't detract from the fact that proselytism was rare and that Jews do not cluster with their host populations genetically, which means their near-eastern ancestry is significant enough.

What is your point exactly?

And which doesn't mention conversion even once, you retard.

Something that I thought was simple but is apparently too complicated for someone with your level of intelligence.

claims
>Judaism was very tribal at the time, and may not have accepted converts depending on the area

Which is wrong. Fin.

OP here, your argument over the "Fiddler on The Roof" brings up another question of mine.

Why did so many Jews end up in Russia? Its weird considering how far it is from the limits of the former Roman empire or the Mediterranean.

I understand them being in Western europe since that where there was a lot of industry and economic opportunity but did they just keep getting kicked out of every country until they reached Russia?

Literally no one liked them. They kept being shifted further and further East, because people got sick of them

its not their fault..
all goys are just antisemitic bastids

We still don't know much about epigenetical influences on phenotypes

> Jews aren't too dissimilar looking to Southern Europeans
I mean.. honestly speaking neither are Arabs

Arabs definitely have a distinctive look to them, if you've ever seen one.

If you mean Moslems, then some like Iranian, Syrians, or Turks do look like South Europeans, mainly because they're all the same stock, basically

>they do look recognizably Semitic or have alien features

Jews look Armenoid

Easier to bleach Levantines than Pakis

Pic related

>left is half Palestinian half Dutch
>right is half Pakistani half British

yeah i can spot jews with extreme accuracy. its almost scary how racist i became living in a city for 4 years.

Jews are white.

I wonder who could be behind this (((post)))

>debate me

you mean autistically yell at each other about how our own definition of the word 'white' is the correct one?

How come Gal Godot (Born in Israel) doesn't look like that?

Most Ashkenazi Jews have the distinctive Nose and the voice (you'll know it when you hear it.

Ok.

The word "Jew" originates from the Bible and the Bible teaches that Jews are a distinct people separate from all others. Therefore they must be separate from White people.

>The word "Jew" originates from the Bible
No it doesn't; it originates from the Kingdom of Judah, transliterated from Hebrew as, "Yehudah," from which, "Jew," additionally is derived.
>Bible
>t. the bible is true because in the bible it says that it's true

Do you even know where the word Judah comes from?! Do you realize he is a person from the Bible?!

Wow! The Bible got something right from history for once!
And since it correctly stated that there was a Kingdom of Judah then everything else the Bible says must also be 100% true.

For this particular discussion all I am claiming is that the Bible defines what a Jew is and that includes being separate from all other peoples.

Don't the European Jews genetically descent from like half a dozen of Jewish men and Southern Italian women (top kek for matrilinear faith). I remember there being some study to that degree.

When the Bible was written was there knowledge of the world into Eurasian steppe?
Furthermore were these people white?
>separate from all other peoples
There is no chance that the concepts of race and ethnicity as we know them today were present in the 1st century BC.
Again, you're saying that since the Bible says something it must be true because the Bible says so.
Or at least that since it's in the Bible then all Jews must believe it. There is a lot in the Bible that Jews do not adhere to.
This is called not being a fundamentalist.
Also, separation is relative.
If Jews are separate from all peoples absolutely then Jews cannot hold any affiliation beyond one of Judaism: a definition that is unfeasible in the modern world.
By that logic than Israeli Jews aren't even Israeli but just Jews living in Israel devoid of nationality.
Nationality would not even exist for centuries when the Bible was first written.
You must define what it means to be separate and then make a compelling argument that such separation supersedes genetics.
Nice picture though.
Maybe put up a happy merchant just to fully convince me that you're intention isn't one of anti-Jewish malice.

No Bible = No Jews
∴ Bible defines what a Jew is

It's math you putz.

I would convert to Judaism if it meant I could hit that

The Bible does not define what a Jew is.
It only sets a biblical definition for what a Jew is.
Have you ever heard of genetics, dummkopf?
>No Bible = No Jews
So during the time before ca. 600 BC when the Bible was first written there were no Jews?
Also how do you account for the other non-Rabbinic Israelite sects?

The Biblical definition is the authoritative definition because it's the original definition.

>authoritative
More like outdated.
Though this hinges on whether or not you believe that a non-fundamentalist can still be considered a true member of a religion.
Again, the Bible does not account for genetics, and genetics are authoritative for determining ethnicity.
The Bible says a lot of things that don't hold up to modern scrutiny, and rationally speaking, a person who is genetically Jewish is ethnically Jewish regardless of where that person was born, and likewise if a person shares the skin pigment of those of European ethnicities then that person is also of European ethnicity.
There's no magic spell that turned a bunch of middle easterners white.

see
*replace white with jew

goodnight

Levantine and Arabs yes, Pakistanis...it depends. Some of them look like South Indians, others look white.

I mean yeah, in a few centuries they'll at least no longer look like native pakis. Hell, American blacks had like 4-5 centuries of interbreeding with white majority populations, and they look noticeably different from, say, the average Nigerian.

80% of ashkenazi maternal haplogroups are european in origin, not near eastern. so men from the middle east moved to europe, married and converted local women then interbred for generations. thats the history of modern ashkenazi jews.

Khazars mainly mixed with slavs and germans while modern turks(which is oghuz tribes)mainly mixed with Iranians.