On the Mahayana Vows

Aren't the Boddhisattva vows ("I will delay my own Buddha-hood and paranirvana until all sentient beings have themselves reached nirvana") impossible to fulfill?

This is to assume humans and sentient beings will live indefinitely.

Science tells us that's very much an improbable course.

That's not what I was saying.

Who says there is an finite number of sentient beings? Remember, Buddhism does not believe in an atman/soul: as such, the number of sentient beings does not decrease as more individuals reach nirvana.

If Buddha's teachings are correct and its simply human-level understanding that needs to change, then humans would eventually reach that same conclusion.

Other animals might evolve to reach human-level intelligence and reach similar conclusions.

Or the universe would end with heat death where all particles are separated and nothing holds together anymore, leaving no sentience being.

That's the point.

Yes, there are an infinite number of sentient beings and so boddhisattvas are eternally reincarnating

So for all effects and purposes, adherents of Mahayana Buddhism are vowing never to achieve nirvana?

>I will delay my own Buddha-hood and paranirvana until all sentient beings have themselves reached nirvana
What's even the point of such altruism from a Buddhist perspective?

No, they are vowing to liberate all sentient beings for all of eternity.

Yes, they place selfless compassion ahead of their own liberation.

As a Vaishnava and former Buddhist I think it's sort of foolish. The dharma will always be around if the age permits it and each person must ultimately figure it out for themselves. Thus the boddhisattvas are causing themselves needless suffering in my eyes, though I respect them nonetheless

Bodhisattvas and Buddha realize there is "no self" and thus altruism is a natural course of action to them. To save the ones that still believe there is a concrete self.


Imagine you understood that you are an alien living among the humans. Imagine that you knew that every other humans are also aliens, but do not realize it yet.

That's similar (although not accurate, as its not about loneliness or such things but rather a natural course of action). Mahayana buddhists argue that once we realize the basis of reality where identities and such are an illusion, once the selfish desire to fulfill those identities with more delusions dies off, once the wisdom is obtained and so on, whats left would be an altruistic being.

Buddhism states there is no self. The Mahayanas believe since there is no self, a realized one should not work for his own selfish interest striving for his own enlightenment, but instead work for others.

Vowing to liberate all sentient beings for all eternity means you are eternally stuck in samsara. You cannot return to samsara after liberation so they delay their own liberation.

>delay
My bad they don't just delay, they forfeit it eternally

Eternally is a non-buddhist concept.

Finite beings have finite existence. This is the core principle behind Buddhism. Impermanence.

But Chan/Zen Buddhism takes it a step farther and states that the only eternal constant/variable is actually impermanence.

Probably got confused by the semantic error probably cultural/translation errors. Or maybe you misunderstood it properly. Nagarjuana makes a clear distinction.

Forgive me but you are speaking incorrectly. Things that are impermanent are born and die, they have a beginning and an end point. Samsara is specifically said to be "without beginning" and "without end." Since there is no beginning and no end, samasara is unborn, eternal. There are many other concepts in Buddhism that evolve eternal unborn things, such as Buddha-nature. Impermanence refers to the illusory material world, things that are born and die.

Samsara is the cycle of rebirth. Its existence predicates on the rebirth of living being through karma and such. So its impermanent. I think Hindus consider Samsara to be permanent due to their God/s having special control over it and them being immortals.

It is impermanent if you consider liberation the end, yes. But the boddhisattvas renounce liberation until all sentient beings are liberated, and there are an infinite number of sentient beings. So if you are indefinitely liberating sentient beings in samsara renouncing liberation, then samsara has no end for the boddhisattvas. That's the point I was trying to make originally,

Your word usage is wrong, thus leads to wrong conclusions. Buddhism doesn't say there are infinite number of sentient beings, just innumerable. Innumerable means finite but uncountably large number, infinite means uncountable and never ending.

The distinction is obvious to some but not to others. This also leads to different conclusion. innumerable but finite means its doable but takes ungodly amount of time. Infinite means its impossible to do, thus contradicts the whole point of bodhisattva.

Buddhism uses very clear distinction in language, they had to argue everything to get there with the their Hindu/Jain counterparts. So do take care in using the proper words.

Oh sorry I was speaking from a Hindu standpoint then, I thought Buddhists held the same belief. My sect states there are infinite jivas, which is more or less equivalent to a sentient being in Buddhism.