How was the life of a poacher in the middle ages?
Specifically were poachers part of a bigger gang or whatever constituted as a gang back then?
Did they have families, and if so how did their families lived compared to the families of serfs and or freemen.
What type of Range weapons did they most commonly used?
And finally what made them into Poachers?
1. Not much different from a forester, just kept to the woods to avoid suspicion of poaching
2. Poaching back in the middle ages was different than today. Instead of hunting tigers or elephants illegally, they just killed some deer on a lords land without permission. Doubtable that it was a very organized thing larger than afew guys dicking around in the forest on the weekend.
3. They probably had some other person (wife?) process or cook the meat or make furs into clothing whilst the man hunted. Keep in mind one has to live near deep forests to make poaching viable, so likely just some cabin by the woods with your wife or some mates.
4. Bows/Crossbows with appropriate ammo for hunting, what would you expect?
5. Money, Apathy for abiding his lordships rules, food, it really all depends on circumstance.
>1. Not much different from a forester, just kept to the woods to avoid suspicion of poaching.
But aren't forester patrolling the woodlands on a lord property? How would they avoid them?
>2. Poaching back in the middle ages was different than today. Instead of hunting tigers or elephants illegally, they just killed some deer on a lord's land without permission. Doubtable that it was a very organized thing larger than a few guys dicking around in the forest on the weekend.
I thought it would be more since it would be a lucrative business to make some coin.
>3. They probably had some other person (wife?) process or cook the meat or make furs into clothing whilst the man hunted. Keep in mind one has to live near deep forests to make poaching viable, so likely just some cabin by the woods with your wife or some mates.
And would they sell that meat at some market in town? or would he give the meat to the villagers in exchange for some favors? Also, did they have children if they were in did married?
>4. Bows/Crossbows with appropriate ammo for hunting, what would you expect?
I don't know something more concealable? Slingshots, or some traps
>5. Money, Apathy for abiding his Lordships rules, food, it really all depends on circumstance.
I see
Not him but I'l try to answer anyway
>1
There weren't that many, the lord would rather spend manpower to guard roads and settlements because that's where the money was. Forests back then were very large and even today you could go to a nearby forest and kill some fucking rabbit with no one catching sight of you, even if you shoot a gun.
>2
For most of the medieval period in catholic europe the peasants didn't own land, they worked on their lord's land and they kept a tiny portion of grain which they could sell to buy clothes, beer, whores, etc, or they could save for the winter as to not starve. This leads me to believe that poaching was really common during the winter, and you'd poach more for the food than you would for the cheap furs.
>3
They'd sell the meat to butchers, or they'd store it and eat it most likely. The furs would likely be sold to the merchants and craftsmen in towns, but they could trade furs for cheese or wine or whatever else. I think most poachers were actual peasants and weren't living a full on life of delinquency, so they'd probably have families and shit.
>4
Javelins were the most common hunting weapon as far as I know, maybe because any dusty little pointy stick does the same job as an expensive bow or slingshot.
>having money for a crossbow
>putting your life at risk by hunting in the king's woods
something's really not making sense here - poachers were either really desperated men or criminals with little possessions struggling to live day by day
a hunting bow is not very hard to make nor it is difficult to obtain back in the days
besides, they mostly used traps
>actually an intresting thread about history
>few replies
>bait threads get hundrets
I thought bows were expensive as fuck.
Also what kind of traps?
Was being a poacher THE life? Imagine your life of going out every day to catch some fish or hunt a dear while your wife stays back at the cabin with your children. At winter you all huddle around the a fire while telling stories to each other, eating venison
today they are but back then, not really, mastering it was difficult
traps can be as simple as a hole filled with sharpened wood sticking out from its bottom and covered, loops, strings, easy to place things that will cause much pain for the animal, but that wasnt really a concern if you were poaching in your lords forrests
yea, until the forrester found you and you hang on a sunday in the middle of the market
>Implying I wouldn't kill him before he tries arrests me.
>implying you wouldnt be taken away by a dozen of the lords mercenaries
watch less robin hood Jason
>Implying I haven't prepared for such an inevitable battle.
You're not dealing with the average peasant M'Lord
How would a house/Cabin for the poacher and his family even look like?
I know user
t. people who don't know but figure their guesswork constitutes a good enough answer
I dont see you giving an answer then m8
The blind leading the blind
i was talking about crossbows though
a good bow made of good wood would be pretty expensive, but shitty materials were also available for poorfags
>shitty materials were also available for poorfags
Like what? The average tree?
>*gets shot, killed and freezes into a glacier then thawed out thousands of years later and researched on in spanish*
I feel your pain
See People aren't posting because who the fuck knows about poachers in the middle-ages unless they're an actual historian whose specialization is something related?
>nothing personnel, sire
>True, the Norman forest laws were harsh. There were two overall categories of offence: those called vert and those termed venison. The vert concerned vegetation - forbidding the chopping down of trees, the making of inclosures, anything that could damage the habitat of the king's deer. These were the lesser offences. The venison crimes concerned the poaching of game and, most especially, deer. The Conqueror's penalty for killing a deer had been blinding. Rufus had gone even further: a peasant who killed a stag must suffer death. The forest laws were hated.
>But there were still the ancient common rights of the Forest folk; and these the Conqueror left largely intact and even, in places, extended. In Pride's hamlet, for instance, though a piece of land beside his homestead had been taken under forest law - which Pride regarded as an imposition - except during certain prohibited periods of the year, he could turn out as many ponies and cattle as he pleased to graze all over the king's Forest; in the autumn his pigs could forage on the rich crop of fresh acorns; he also had the right to cut turves for his peat fire, gather fallen wood, of which there was always plenty, and to carry home bracken as bedding for his animals.
>Brother Matthew had known the prior didn't like Luke. By putting him in charge of the grange he had been giving Luke a chance to prove to the prior that he was reliable. But when young Martell and his friends arrived, demanding shelter for the night, it hadn't been so easy for a simple man like Luke to refuse.
>He knew they'd been poaching, of course. They even had a deer with them. It was a serious offence. The king no longer demanded your life or limb for killing his precious deer, but the fines could be heavy. By giving them shelter he was guilty of a crime too. So why had he done it? Had they threatened him? Martell had certainly cursed him and given him a look that frightened him. But the real reason, he knew in his heart, was when Will had nudged him and whispered: 'Come on, Luke. I told them you were my cousin. Are you going to embarrass me?'
>They'd eaten all the bread and a whole cheese. They didn't think much of the beer. The best beer and the wine for guests was all at the abbey, not out there at a humble grange. In the morning they had gone.
>There were only half a dozen lay brothers at the grange besides himself and as many hired labourers. But there was no need to say anything. They had all understood. The illegal visit would never be mentioned to anyone.
> "It is presented that on the Friday before the Feast of St Matthew last, Roger Martell, Henry de Damerham and others did enter the Forest with bows and arrows, dogs and greyhounds, to harm the venison ..."
>The charge, which would be inserted in the court record in Latin, was read out by the clerk. It gave exact details of what the poachers did and was not contested. All threw themselves on the mercy of the court. The justice looked at them severely while the forest folk in the hall listened carefully.
>'This is a venison offence, carried out in open contempt of the law, by those who, by reason of their position, should know better. It will not be tolerated. You are amerced as follows: 'Will atte Wood, half a mark.' Poor Will. A stiff fine. Two of his cousins stood surety and he was given a year to pay it. The other local men in the party all got the same.
>Next came the turn of the young gentlemen: five pounds each - fifteen times the amount of the Forest men. This was only just. Finally, the justice came to Martell.
>'Roger Martell. You were, without question, the leader of these malefactors. You led them to the grange. You took deer. You are also a young man of substance.' He paused. 'The king himself was not amused to hear about this matter. You are amerced the sum of one hundred pounds.'
>A collective gasp. The two sheriffs looked shattered. It was a stupendous fine, even for a rich landowner; and it was also very clear that King Edward himself had approved it beforehand. Royal disfavour. Martell went white as a sheet. He would either be selling land or losing his income for many a year. Manly though he was, he visibly shook.
>That summer of 1635 there had been no less than two hundred and sixty-eight prosecutions brought before the Forest court. The average had usually been about a dozen. The Forest had never seen anything like it. Every inch of land they had discreetly taken in the last generation, every cottage quietly erected, all were exposed, all fined. There was not a village or family in the entire Forest that hadn't been caught. None of the fines were lenient; some were vicious. Labourers occupying illegal cottages were fined three pounds. You could buy a dozen sheep, or a couple of precious cows for that, when most smallholders had milk from only one. A yeoman was fined a hundred pounds for poaching. A few yards of ground taken for some beehives, a troublesome dog, some illegally grazed sheep - all resulted in abrupt fines. As always, when King Charles set out to assert himself, he was thorough.
>Here and there a Pride had graduated from the tenant into the yeoman class, owning land in his own name; and as often as not, when the local gentlemen chose some yeomen to sit with them on juries they'd be glad enough to choose a Pride. Their reason was very simple: these Prides were intelligent, and, even in a disagreement, men in authority know that it is always easier to deal with an intelligent man than a slow-witted one. A gentleman forester felt on firm ground if he said, 'Pride thinks he can take care of that,' or 'Pride says it won't work'.
>And if some well-meaning person were to suggest that Pride might have been doing a little discreet poaching on the side, the informer was more likely to be met with a quiet smile and a murmured, 'I dare say he has,' than any thanks - there being always a sporting chance that the gentleman receiving this information had been doing a little of the same himself.
>im not your average peasants
you are so fucking bad you couldent become a average peasant
Nice
realistically, Would they used a slingshot instead of a bow? I mean Slingshots are more easy to hide and you can hide it easily if you are planning on hunting
Its suffering.
They would probably just used a branch lying on the ground, bring it back to their home, sharpened and hardern it and use it as some sort of make shift javelin
Why even become a peasant anyways?
...
Truly an underrated occupation
So he was murdered or killed in battle?
Murdered
Mods are shit: more news at 11
How would that even work?
1. It wasn't really a "lifestyle", just something they did, same as shoplifters today, though I'm certain some people did make a lifestyle out of it, in the same way some people become experts at pick-pocketing and stuff in today's age
2. No, not that I know of. Do shoplifters roam around in gangs? If one person gets caught, he's liable to rat ALL of you out. You work in small groups that form naturally, out of people you know you can trust. It could be your brother, your father, your neighbor (neighbors back then relied on each other way more than we do now), some dude you saw who was poaching at the same time you were, so you stuck together because you realized there was an advantage to working together
3. Probably did. It's not academic at all, but my theory is that a very certain type of people poached, and that would be the kind of people we would know nowadays as the type we'd label "degenerates" and such. I mean, if you think about it, druggies and goons share a very similar psychological profile, so it's only fair to assume that the same people of ye olde times also shared this similar "I don't give a fuck, fuck the po-leece, get money" attitude. Selling lots of meat like that would be kind of suspicious, so they probably had a "black market" back then too for meat, just like any other illicit good. It's possible that they might have a bit of a reputation among this same circle of "seedy" people as a poacher, likely due to regular-old gossip and shit, but most "common", "law-abiding" folk probably wouldn't be in the know
4. Depends on terrain and country. Could be they used dogs, traps, bows, spears, probably not horses, but bait and trap would probably be very popular (spend less time in King's forest looking for animals to hunt, and since forest is so big, it's unlikely a ranger would stumble upon it because it's hidden and only you know where you placed it)
pt 1
5. Again, not very academic of me, but it's my own personal theory. It's likely that poachers shared the same genetic predisposition for defiance of authority and boldness as modern day druggies and goons. Probably raised in a harsher environment and grew up in a setting where poaching and breaking the law was regular (family trade or something). Whoever you know that dealt drugs and skipped school in class? Those people's great-great ancestors were probably literally poachers and smugglers and shit back then. Unscientific, I know, but the logic is right there.
Also, sorry for my rambling and incoherency. I don't have an excuse like "I'm drunk" or something. I just really, really, really, REALLY couldn't be assed enough to put any effort into grammar and spelling and shieeet right now. I promise I'm much more articulate in real life.
Oh shit, didn't even read these guy's replies in the first place. I swear I didn't copy my response from them or anything either...I'm smart too ;_;
>"Psssh. Novght to be taken personably...yovr sire"
Great, now not only are you a poacher; you're also a murderer. And now not only are you a murderer; you're now a murderer of the King's personal ranger. You know how cops nowadays all KNOW who the criminals are, but they can't just up and arrest them because due process and evidence and stuff? Yeah, now imagine that, but the king can say "fuck due process, I'm the king and I get what I want", and now his guards are hauling your ass to jail because they KNOW you're a suspicious character, but they just don't know that you're the guy they're looking for, but who cares because you fit the bill and the king wants whoever's responsible arrested NOW damn it, so they take you because you're a likely suspect, and now you're going to be hung (your poaching isn't 100 percent discreet, asshole, there are neighbors who know, and the guy you sell your meat and furs too have a sneaking suspicion).
Fuuuuuuuuug
But they use some pretty sound logic. I'd wager you can work out a lot of historical context by cross-examining modern-day equivalencies to fill the gaps of what we don't know about past-day equivalencies.
ie. History is useful because we can study the past to figure out the present. However, due to the crazy phenomenon of humanity's unchanging nature, we can ALSO study the PRESENT to figure out the PAST. And no, this isn't some crazy bullshit I just made up on the spot to sound legitimate. [spoiler]I made it up 3 weeks ago.[/spoiler]
Like it did for the past several hundred thousand years...
>or some traps
Cute traps aren't concealable baka!
A bad ass Turk bow kills another pigskin white mudhutter
noice
Ambush, I think. Probs wandered too far into some dindu's territory who then proceeded to chimp out on his ass. Got shot in the back too, from what I can recall. Probably died fleeing. My head canon says he was trying to walk away at a brisk pace, thinking they were just harassing him, but then one of the absolute mad men actually did it and loosed an arrow in him, at which point he ran for a few more feet before succumbing to his wound. Possible he might have even been killed on accident. Guys might have been all like "Oh...Shit. My bad, dude. I actually meant to miss you."
Okay
At least I die a freeman instead of a serf
I am!
No you're not!
So psychopathy?
No
Traps are gay
Deep in the woods with just the bare essentials.
Am too...
Don't know if I could clinically diagnose every goon in Highschool with outright psychopathy, but, I mean, yeah. Mostly it's probably just being a product of their environment or something, but a small, yet unmistakable part of their life choices would have to be due to some sort of genetic predisposition for deceitfulness and treachery. I've come to call these types of people "Dylans", by the way, which are a smaller, inferior subspecies of the much larger, awe-inspiring "Chad".
I mean Couldn't they Start Poaching if their Lord was a Jackass to them? I read that Polish peasant from Villages would often more than not Start Poaching if their Lord was in any way abusive towards them
I don't think poaching was used as a direct weapon against shitty Lords; I just think it might have been one of many symptoms of a shitty ruler (ie. subjects have no respect for your laws if you treat them bad).
For example, I don't think people went "Wow, this guy's so shitty, let's all go on poaching sprees to show him what's up", I think it was more like:
"Hey, let's go hunt in the King's forest."
"Okay, but isn't that illegal and shieeet?"
"Yeah, but the King sucks, what do you care?"
And so people would go out and poach as a sort of sly middle-finger to the Lord's authority. If a king really was that shitty though, most people would probably just riot and sing unflattering songs about him in bars and stuff.
TL;DR
It's like the Boston Tea Party (sort of). People threw tea in the harbor as a way of expressing their outrage, not as a strategic attack on Britain's policy. In that same light, people poached on the king's land because they no longer respect the King's law, not as some premeditated attack on his character.
Perhaps you're right. But I still think it could be more personal between the Poacher and the Lord/King (Albeit One-sided)
I wanted to say that there probably WERE instances of people poaching purely out of spite for the king. I'm certain it's happened at least ONCE in all of human history, but I wouldn't be able to say with any certainty if this demographic constituted any real number of poachng incidents throughout feudal histories.
To be fair, if I were some peasant with a shitty king, I'd probably poach too, 2bqhwyf.
Were poachers living the thug life
Yes
Bitching
Where the fuck did they live anyways? In the Village? in a town? Or in the Forest itself?
On the road you pleb
in the village
normally serfs who were peasants officially, just poaching on the side, the entire thread is LARPing and should be deleted
No it was footpads or Highway men
Bandtis or marauders
THIS.
There were no proffesional poachers or what not. Poaching was something that peasants did.
Its like people in a thousand years asking what kind of lives Internet Pirates lived
>Its like people in a thousand years asking what kind of lives Internet Pirates lived
Under their parents basement
Rude
Its the truth
Everyone ITT should read 'The Devil in a Forest' by Gene Wolfe. It's a great book about a small community of Christian peasants clashing with pagan forest-dwellers. Extremely well researched and written. The author is one of the most acclaimed genre-fiction writers of all time and designed the machine that makes Pringles.
Go on
W-What? This whole thread has been nothing but people saying "poaching is something that peasants did", and one guy deliriously shouting "I'MMA BE A POACHER, FUCK THE PO-LEECE".
If anything, this entire thread has been filled with nothing but relevant, albeit unprofessionally disclosed, information.
Not an argument
Protagonist is an orphan weaver's apprentice, about 14 or so so just about a man, he lives in a failing community with about ten other people. Their livelihood was St Agnes Fountain (sound familiar?), which used to draw in pilgrims who would spend their money on local services during their visits. The flow of pilgrims has been cut off by a local brigand who has become somewhat well-known for occasionally killing travelers on the road and generally making the area unsafe.
The local Abbe has the idea of forming a militia to drive the man off, triggering a violent sequence of events involving everyone in the town, the brigand, the community of charcoal burners living in the surrounding forest who may or may not be affiliated with the brigand, and the local authorities, in the form of some men-at-arms and the Royal Forester.
Gene Wolfe is one of the greatest fiction writers alive and most hardcore nerd literature polls on science-fiction and fantasy authors tend to place him roughly tied around GOAT with Tolkien. His work is always meticulously plotted and researched and in my opinion his historical fiction is second to none. His 'Soldier of the Mist' series, about an amnesiac Roman mercenary trying to find his way home after fighting in Greece and sustaining a severe head-injury resulting in memory-loss is also fantastic.
If anybody should be known as Veeky Forums's go-to fiction writer it ought to be him.
From the Google - Peasants usually did not have weapons, skills or the extra time to hunt, so in order to provide food for their families they devised another way to bring meat to their tables, including snares [source: NationMaster].
While hunting was reserved for the privileged, it was illegal to buy and sell wild animals. It remained illegal to do so until the mid-1800s. Gangs of poachers formed outlaw bands and sold animals through the black market.
Sounds bree tasty. You legit shilled him enough into me wanting to check him out. What's your "favorite" Wolfe book? If you can't think of a favorite, give me the name of his most "popular" book, aka, the "Back in Black" of his songs, because even if a normie might not know AC/DC, they'll still go "Oh, you mean THAT song that everyone knows? Yeah, I like that band."
Didn't know about the roving bands of poachers, but I guess it makes sense. Success by the numbers and all that that implies. Makes me wonder what the reason was for illegalizing the buying and selling of wild animals. Surely there would have been animals caught on land that WASN'T forbidden by the king? Maybe it was because it's impossible to tell a deer from the King's forest from a deer from some random meadow, so they just said "Aw, fuck it. Let's just ban all the wild animals to cover all our exits, just to be safe".
The definitive Wolfe work is easily 'The Book of the New Sun'. Rather than being based in a historic era it's set in a very far future in which Earth and humanity have risen to greatness and then fallen back to a medieval state of existence following the collapse of what was a universal empire. The book has a fairly strong following on Veeky Forums but it's also very dense and full of allusions to history, mythology, and most confusingly, Catholic theology. Not one to just casually jump into but it's a fantastically intricate and well-written story.
It's also most likely my favourite, but he's done a pile of great stuff. 'The Fifth Head of Cerberus', a post-colonial story of failure and confused identity, and 'Peace', an American memoir delivered through increasingly fragmented and surreal anecdotes, are also strong contenders for my favourite Wolfe works.
Kinda intimidated because my Veeky Forums and /myth/ skills are just as abysmal as my talent for Catholic trivia. How versed are you on these matters, and how much of the allusions were you able to understand? I'm at a "101" level for all of these subjects.
Book of the New Sun is my favorite book of all time for what it's worth.
An in-depth understanding of theology and classical mythology isn't essential, just some things might make more sense. The world of Book of the New Sun runs on a very medieval mindset and Wolfe has very old-fashioned ideas on how heroism works. What really makes Book of the New Sun hard to process for so many people is the style (memoir written in first person by the protagonist) and its content (protagonist is an ancient myth-style hero, meaning that by modern standards his actions can occasionally seem monstrous).
What's most important for processing it is appreciating that you're receiving the story as the protagonist tells it. He doesn't remember or understand everything around him as perfectly as he'd like to and he also doesn't want to share everything he knows and has done. The story is 1400 pages long and almost certainly won't make much sense after your first reading. But the second reading, when you've got a foundational understanding of the plot and higher workings of the story is so incredible as it all comes together that the next 1400 pages are like a completely different book because the experience is so different.
I'd recommend reading something else by Wolfe first. His writing can be quite a culture shock, and Book of the New Sun is probably the single strongest one out of his entire bibliography.
Time to reap the whirlwind. Downloading his New Sun series, esoteric references be damned. I, uh, I paid for them with my credit card...
>buying books
The honest Veeky Forums lifestyle is too expensive for me, but I'm sure Wolfe's grandkids appreciate your integrity. Or maybe he spends the money himself.
If it doesn't make too much sense after your first reading there's a mountain of analysis kicking around so you won't be lost for long. Just make sure you finish the complete The Book of the New Sun first. The supplementary/sequel novels aren't bad at all but the story stands perfectly fine and complete without them. My favourite Wolfe expert is Marc Arimini, he's written lots of helpful essays scattered across the internet and a book.
Oh, okay, I just said I paid money for it because I didn't want to get V&.
Nice. Any books recommendations?
Start with the Greeks.
Greeks arenshit
>Medieval times
>slingshot
Wat
I think he meant "sling", in which case, "maybe?"
Some guy up there posted about the how peasants didn't have the time to hunt, or that they even had the time to learn how to hunt at all. Personally, if I were a peasant, I'd probably carry around a sling too, along with a sharp, disposable stick or something. Snares and traps all the way, my guy.
Veeky Forums please go. You have you board free to talk about any books you like.
Well peasants were resourceful.
I know, I'm not saying they weren't. But say you were some dude who lived with a wife and three kids, and leaving your house meant leaving them all alone, which could be potentially dangerous, and staying too long in the forest increased your chances of getting caught. Your best course of action is to just set up a bunch of cheap, easy-to-make traps and catch a bunch of fat bunnies or something.
Could turn all the furs into a nice coat for the kids, because you'd probably be a nice guy c:
Greeks are everything.
Veeky Forums is garbage.