Was South Africa run any differently than any other post colonial African state. Most of the other states also set up systems where by a small minority could make itself rich by exploiting the poor masses. I don't believe what they did was right, but to a certain extent I do believe the optics of it caused the international outrage to much greater than in other post colonial states.
What made South Africa different?
Lincoln Richardson
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Ryan Perez
Wasn't South Africa originally colonized by Dutch people, but it was never a Dutch coloony?
If tthat's true then they had an adventage over other African colonies for a while because they could keep everything they found and amde to themselves.
Also control over the cape of good hope helped a lot.
Jace Lewis
The Dutch colonized it, but then the Netherlands was overrun during the French revolutionary wars, so the Dutch settlers became cut off from the mother country. That's partly why Afrikaans, while very similar to Dutch, has noticeable differences, particularly in grammar.
Thomas Evans
The white populace of the country viewed themselves and acted as natives of the country. Keep in mind that the Dutch lost possession of the Cape two centuries ago, meaning that the Boers were essentially isolated from their homeland under British rule, forcing them to develop an independent national identity, and they had time to do so. That's not even considering the fact that the Boers lived here for two centuries before that. This nationalist sentiment, tied geographically to the land, was reinforced by the two Anglo-Boer Wars, the second of which in particular left lasting scars on the Boer national psyche, resulting in a strong emphasis on defense of the people and the land.
This resulted in a strong, widely-supported government that could effectively utilise the ridiculously vast quantities of mineral and agricultural wealth contained within South Africa's borders, and developed well under British rule.
Hence the country lasting for so long under white rule. Racist national ideologies basically fell out of fashion with the rest of the world after the 60s or so though, and once the Cold War ended there was no reason left for foreign governments to deny the will of their anti-Apartheid public. Economic sanctions were really what brought the NP government to the negotiating table; any sort of armed uprising was really unfeasible - the Boers know the land just as well if not better than the blacks, and the national infrastructure was extremely well developed by African standards, while the military was about on par with Israel's.
You have to keep in mind that South Africa is one of the oldest and most successful colonies in Africa, the Afrikaners here are as rooted to the land as any other tribe on the continent.
Mason Campbell
The time before the Great Trek spent under British rule and the ongoing trade with the British Cape Colony also heavily influenced the language, as did the Huguenot settlers who assimilated pretty much entirely into the Afrikaner population.
Levi Campbell
That was very good and it has the same idea that I had. That south Africa was very similar to the other African states where one tribe took over the government and used that to exploit the rest of the population.
Eli Ross
As an aside, it's funny for all concerned when I or any Afrikaans-speaker speak with Nederlanders. To me they essentially sound like poofs because of how all the guttural, back-of-the-throat g sounds in Afrikaans are replaced by weird high-pitched soft j sounds. As to the grammar differences, Afrikaans is to Dutch grammatically as a 6-7 year old's grammar is to standard for his language. To us the Dutch sound gay and pretentious, to them we sound like macho idiots.
Christopher Miller
Thanks user, South Africa is my home so I get quite excited when I get a chance to discuss its history. Feel free to ask anything else and I'll answer as best I can.
Eli Bailey
Did the end of Apartheid make you racist then?
Wyatt Price
I'm confused as to what you mean by that question. Certainly a lot of whites, Indians, coloureds, and east-Asians (mostly form Hong Kong, Singapore, and China), and Muslims (all distinct and well-established racial and cultural groups here, by the way) get shaken out of liberal beliefs now when they realise that they have to score 5-20% higher than blacks to get into university, are legally less desirable for hire than an equally or even less qualified black person, and so on, but I really wouldn't consider myself racist, just meritocratic, if I had to put a label on it.
I definitely think that the end of Apartheid has resulted in a government just as prone to looting and kleptocracy as any other in Africa where the Apartheid government, while corrupt in many ways, was less prone to this particular sort of destructive behaviour. Luckily the previously established institutions of law and media are still strong enough to prevent all-out looting and abandonment of the country by the political elite, but it is certainly heading in that direction at a worrying pace.
Basically we're just praying that the ANC lose majority to someone other than the EFF, preferably the DA, before they can consolidate their power enough to make a move that would require armed rebellion to prevent.
Jaxson Nguyen
>To us the Dutch sound gay and pretentious, to them we sound like macho idiots.
just like idiocracy lol
Aiden Nelson
Kek essentially this, although a little less extreme.
Christopher Lopez
>Certainly a lot of whites, Indians, coloureds, and east-Asians (mostly form Hong Kong, Singapore, and China), and Muslims (all distinct and well-established racial and cultural groups here, by the way
Really?
Would you say that S-Africa is better for the average black man now?
Dominic Russell
>As to the grammar differences, Afrikaans is to Dutch grammatically as a 6-7 year old's grammar is to standard for his language. To us the Dutch sound gay and pretentious, to them we sound like macho idiots.
This is too good for a normal kek.
Adam Hill
>Really?
Yep. There is some overlap between Muslim and coloured and Muslim and Indian, but very little between Indian and coloured. To be fair, coloured populations are only a really big thing in the Cape, but they are present elsewhere. Also Durban has the single highest population of Indians outside India.
>Would you say that S-Africa is better for the average black man now?
Obviously all the political elite are now black and there is a tiny but present black middle class, but for the median black man the economic situation is exactly the same as it ever was. Ludicrous unemployment rates, and an economically incompetent government will do that. Education is a tricky issue to judge. I'd say it's almost as bad for the average black man now as it was during apartheid, but if things keep going like they are it will eventually be worse. While the fact that a black man can get into an engineering degree with a 70% matric might look like a big bonus of being black, it makes no difference when your inadequate preparation for tertiary education means you drop out before the end of the first year. The ratio of whites to blacks /graduating/ from tertiary education now is actually higher than it was at the end of Apartheid, even though the entrance rates have changed dramatically.
The end of the unrest of the 70s and particularly 80s is a very large difference for the lowest common socio-economic denominator though, those were not good times to live in the townships. Plus socially being black is generally much more acceptable in higher circles than it ever was before, but that's not to say that any blacks move in higher circles. I have only one black friend for the reason that black people in my socioeconomic bracket (middle class) are extremely rare.
Overall South Africa is probably the best place to be black in Africa, but it still certainly isn't great, and it's getting worse for everyone.
Christopher Miller
That's what I was looking for. thanks for the info user. Don't get raped or killed!
Ian Barnes
Lol I'll try. Luckily homosexuality is frowned upon among rapists here (so much so that lesbians are specifically targeted "correctively"), so I've just gotta watch out for the murder.
By the way, it's worth pointing out that there is a very sharp divide in the overall poor black community: there is a shockingly large proportion who literally think nothing of rape and view it as transactional (I bought her a drink and she didn't want to have sex with me so I raped her, fair's fair), or else will make up the most ludicrous reasons to rape (corrective rape, raping a virgin cures HIV); with similar attitudes towards murder and theft, but on the other hand there are those that have extremely harsh views of these attitudes, and will lynch perpetrators of rape or murder at any opportunity.
The poor coloured community is even more interesting in this regard, due to extremely strong Christian influence at odds with a plague of gangsterism and drug addiction. "Gangster" is an extremely dirty word to those living in the Cape Flats or similarly affected areas, and I've seen a coloured person demand that some unaware idiot who's described something as "gangster" take it back immediately.
Brandon Myers
Just curious why do you think that the institutions in South Africa did not collapse after the end of arpetide. Why did Zimbabwe turn into a one man dictatorship holding onto a failed stste and South Africa turn into a corrupt but at the very least functioning democratic republic.
Sebastian Sanders
>raping a virgin cures HIV
that's true though
Isaiah Moore
I think a large part of it was that Nelson Mandela was a genuinely good man who did an excellent job of negotiating a non-violent solution.
It must be noted that the government was not disbanded at the end of Apartheid; rather the former ministers were for the most part allowed to keep their seats for a set space of time, after which due process may or may not replace them.
Additionally, there was never anything resembling a successful armed insurrection in South Africa, the secret police and military were simply too effective. Where elsewhere in Africa the government is essentially a tinpot general at the head of an army who was given a country, South Africa's current leaders were always political leaders and none have any credible military experience (Umkhonto we Sizwe was an utter joke). During the transitional period, the military was essentially still a Boer institution despite the integration of the "armed wings" of the various anti-apartheid groups, and the civilian Boer population at the time of transition were heavily armed and well trained. Martial traditions were essentially unchanged since the time of the Second Boer War, so everyone old enough to hold a gun could shoot straight and well.
Boers had an extremely strong democratic tradition. They would not have been happy with a dictator.
So yeah, due to a variety of factors, South Africa really managed to transition exceptionally well to majority rule, even though corruption has taken root now.
Bentley Butler
>they have to score 5-20% higher than blacks to get into university, are legally less desirable for hire than an equally or even less qualified black person
oh god and we're the racists
Justin Taylor
It is doublethink, plain and simple, but let's not derail the thread with current politics. I've been enjoying answering questions so far.
John Roberts
Do you think that the DA has any real chance of becoming part of government (either through forming it themselves or through a coalition)? What little I know of SA politics seems to indicate that the ANC may lose enough support that they become desperate enough to form some sort of coalition with the EFF and that's when the death spiral would really begin. On that note, do you foresee an exodus of middle or upper class whites if this kind of situation happened? How do you think things are going to turn out for your country in 10-20 years?
Also, do you have books on the war I. Southwest Africa? It's one of those conflict I really wish there was more reading material on.
Hudson Murphy
Unfortunately I don't have any books on the war. I've read a few but I can't recall the names at the moment, they've all been loaned from libraries and relatives. They're very common here but unfortunately not so much overseas.
I think the DA has a real chance. Their support has been growing steadily for a long time now while the ANC's has been slowly declining. Before the rise of the EFF the DA taking power by 2029 was all but inevitable, but now there's a wildcard in the equation. The EFF's rhetoric has been such that I do foresee a mass exodus if they take any sort of real power and look poised to actually implement their "reforms." It would honestly be the death of the country economically, and I say that without any fearmongering bullshit. There would simply be no reason for anyone not black to remain in the country if they could afford to leave, and non-blacks make up the vast majority of the country's tax base and intellectual capital. It would be a brain drain of epic proportions in addition to representing the loss of the majority of the country's current economic capital.
Alternatively if the global political climate has shifted enough, we might see a favourable foreign view of an armed coup or at least armed secessionist movement in the west of the country, in which case that would certainly take place in the event of unconstitutional government action. The military is simply not competent enough to take on a guerilla movement with foreign aid, and those few units that are still uncorrupt and veteran would never fight for an unconstitutional government against their own kinsmen.
Realistically though, chances are a coalition government (the most likely EFF victory scenario) would result in a neutered EFF slowly becoming another ANC.
Joseph Gray
>Nelson Mandela was a genuinely good man
Stopped reading there lmao
Noah Price
Funny joke, /pol/. Now I have to explain how "was" simply refers to at least one point in the past, not necessarily all points, and that by "a good man" I mean "a leader that genuinely acted in what he believed to be the best interests of both his people and his country, rather than self-enrichment."
Although I have to say that the ANC's efforts to build a cult of personality around Mandela, especially now that he's dead are downright disturbing.
Bentley Price
>The white populace of the country viewed themselves and acted as natives of the country.
They were, they settled on empty land after all. Fuck the Bantu invaders.
Gavin James
The fact that South Africa isn't purely boer bothers me immensely. Imagine the wealth and prosperity of South Africa if it had no social and ethnic strife whatsoever, and did not have it at any point of their history.
Isaac Jenkins
I can't even tell if this shit posting.
Andrew Johnson
How is he wrong? Place was a Utopia under Apartheid.
Hunter Diaz
As a white South African I can tell you that's absolute shit.
Adam Rodriguez
Oh, so things are better now?
Carson Hill
Marginally. People talk about how violence is tearing the country apart but the murder and violent crime rate is pretty much the same as it was during apartheid. There was a spike just after apartheid ended but that died shortly after.
While the ANC is corrupt as shit I can't say that the pre-apartheid was somehow any better. They were quite brutal towards any blacks or whites who questioned them.
For the average white South African, the situation hasn't really changed that much. They still hold much economic power and that probably won't change overnight. It's much better for the black South Africans in that they no longer are treated as second class citizens.
So overall, it is better for the average South African.
Aaron Bell
Seriously? You had an epidemic of blacks murdering/raping and torturing white farmers before Apartheid too?
That sucks bro
Carson Bennett
Treat people like animals and don't be surprised when they start acting like them.
Ryder Sullivan
Yea, remember how white people would hunt down blacks and torture them as they rape their children before the kill them all? I do too.
In any case, since treating people like animals justifies anything, I sure hope the whites start organizing and shooting blacks on sight, in self-defense of course.
Blake Scott
>Treat people like animals and don't be surprised when they start acting like them.
Yeah, or act like animals and get treated like them.
Henry Thomas
What do you think the chances of a Boer state happening are? Do you think Israel would help you guys out again?
Samuel Moore
>implying they didn't
claiminghumanrights.org
>When, in 1994, apartheid was finally abolished, the new government of Nelson Mandela set up a Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC). The TRC had many prominent members, among them its chairman Archbishop Desmond Tutu, a well-known opponent of apartheid and holder of the Nobel Peace Prize 1984. The TRC was a court-like body where witnesses and victims of human rights violation under the apartheid regime could give statement about their experiences in the period 21 March 1960 to 10 May 1994. In turn, perpetrators of abductions, killings, torture, and severe ill treatment could give testimony of their crimes and, by this, request amnesty from both civil and criminal persecution.
>The commission was successful in revealing many human rights violations committed by the apartheid government, but also by the liberation forces including the (now ruling party) African National Congress (ANC), and other forces. On 28 October 1998 the Commission presented its final report, which condemned both sides for committing atrocities. Out of 7,112 petitioners a total of 5,392 people were refused and 849 were granted amnesty.
>Because of the perceived success of the truth-finding approach, other countries installed similar institutions according to the South African model. Nevertheless, the TRC also got some criticism regarding its reconciliation goals.
The Bantus did some fucked up shit, no denying that, but Appartheid was fucking disgusting and savage as well. This is your brain on idpol.
Dominic Roberts
Israel isn't helping the Boers, they're still operating under the guise of being "socially progressive" despite being a Zionist ethno-state.
Though it makes sense for a corrupt ethno state to support a future corrupt ethno-state if shit keeps getting worse in SA.
Hudson Parker
>Yea, remember how white people would hunt down blacks and torture them as they rape their children before the kill them all? I do too.
Are you being sarcastic? If you are I urge you to look no further than American history anytime before the Civil Rights or perhaps the Belgian Congo. I'd especially advise you to look into post WW1 America after black servicemen were returning home. There was a significant uptick in violence against said individuals because people believed they'd use their service to the country as leverage to demand rights. Let's not try and pretend that historically white people have been these gentle, well meaning humanitarians to black people.
All you're doing is perpetuating the same violence that has plagued man from day one.
Evan Thomas
self-defense
Around Bantus, can't relax.
Sebastian Williams
>dat goal post moving to different countires
And white people are retarded, because they have treated blacks better than anyone else in history because the idiots fooled themselves into thinking blacks they are their equals.
Literally no one else in history has made this idiotic mistake.
Juan Morales
>Appartheid government goes out of its way to abduct, brutalise, kill and segregate.
>Self-defence
>I-It's ok when we do it
Wyatt Bennett
>And white people are retarded, because they have treated blacks better than anyone else in history
Are you honestly being serious right now?
Josiah Cook
>because they have treated blacks better than anyone else in history
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org
nationalarchives.gov.uk
Yes, I'm sure all those beatings, whippings, hangings, lynchings, hate groups and governments which enforced racial discrimination and proceeded to treat blacks like shit was truly BETTER.
By your logic, a gulag is better than a concentration camp.
Jaxson James
How was that goal post moving? You said white people, not white South Africans. I naturally took a broader position.
Michael Morales
Yes. Whites are idiots for giving equal rights to blacks, for trying to civilize them, for feeding them now, for leaving their cities to them. etc. etc.
Everyone else just enslaved them and killed them when they were done. I mean it's nothing they haven't been doing to themselves since the dawn of time. White people just had to take the moral high ground.
Josiah Foster
>Yes, I'm sure all those beatings, whippings, hangings, lynchings, hate groups and governments which enforced racial discrimination and proceeded to treat blacks like shit was truly BETTER.
I mean I agree, should have never interacted with them in the first place. But they sure are better off now because of Europeans. What would be different if Europeans never interacted with Africa?
They would still just be killing/raping/eating/enslaving each-other, getting killed enslaved by Arabs/Berbers except they would be even more technological backwards than they are now.
But hey, it's white people's problems that they are taking responsibility for them.
Jeremiah Morgan
Liam Barnes
Waste of resources.
Mason Lee
Yeah, I meant whites in SA.
Lucas Phillips
> I mean it's nothing they haven't been doing to themselves since the dawn of time.
That's literally what our entire species has been doing from day one. From ancient Europe, Asia, the Americas there was constant tribal warfare and enslavement of opposing tribes. Black people have been doing literally nothing different than the rest of the species.
Evan Lee
Precisely, but white people are stupidly trying to make up for things they have done, and it seems they are literally willing to commit cultural suicide in the name of moral grand standing.
Ryder Rogers
>What would be different if Europeans never interacted with Africa?
>More technologically backwards
Probably wind up building up more connections allowing them to advance better, considering that they were fairly isolated away from the rest of the world, not to mention they probably would have built more trade connections with North Africans.
These people weren't incapable of having civilisation. And for an isolated group of people, I have to hand it to them, with what they had, it wasn't that bad. Not as grand in comparisson to European countries, but considering the geography, not bad.
en.wikipedia.org
richard-hooker.com
Probably might have just been countries like Seychelles.
en.wikipedia.org
Kayden Robinson
>resources yield results of African lives improving
Butt hurt Rhodesian fan boy detected. Read global rule #3 of the board and don't come back.
Wyatt Stewart
This.
People forget how incredibly isolated sub-Saharan Africa was. It was basically cut off from the rest of the world. Take into account the fact that the region is also rather arid and it becomes clear it's not a particularly good spot for civilization to begin emerging on a large scale.
Connor Bennett
All of their "Empires" came about from interacting with others, and just tended to be salve empires, ironically.
And we would know how they would turn out without interacting with others. Because we see how Africa is now.
Can't wait for the West to fall so that Arabs and Chinese can go full ethnic cleansing on Africa. It's a bit funny that the only reason black people are still around is Westerners protecting them at their own expense.
Easton Rivera
>Arabs
There are a shit ton of black Muslims in Africa. The Arabs wouldn't do anything to jeopardize that great position.
Isaac Stewart
Pretty good thread while it lasted
I hope all this the SA user mentioned was true since it seemed like an honest review on the current state of the country, but you know the motto of this place
Camden Flores
What are the eff's proposed reforms?
Luke Hughes
They want to nationalise everything. They want to boot whites out of the country and seize all our property (sometimes, they flip flop a bit on this). They want to seize all white-owned farms. Then there's a bunch of other retarded shit pertaining specifically to the running of the country after they do this, including a lot of contradictory stuff, like supporting calls for "decolonisation" from student protesters, who are essentially racists calling for everything built by whites to be destroyed, including the education system. But basically just the most extreme and retarded form of African nationalist communism that you'll have heard of elsewhere in Africa. Their attitude towards whites is extremely comparable to that of the Nazis before they took power towards the Jews.
Christian Rivera
If you're still reading this thread.
Do you think they could get away with it if they obtained a position of power? I imagine they'd recieve a lot of backlash from the elite and middleclass. Who exactly are supporting them?
Jack Gutierrez
ITT: /pol/ encounters their first real South African and can't handle reality
Gabriel Rivera
I'm going to wager that since white people were less of a minority in that country it's taken longer for the blacks to fully remove them and begin the wasteful corruption train
Bentley Thomas
Boers should get their own state around Cape Town. The boers have been seperated from the Dutch for too long to integrate well in the Netherlands. Only boers should be allowed to live on that territory to secure the existance of the Boer state.
Alexander Wilson
The Boers are literally native to the land. The Bantu tribes that make up 99.9% of the current black South African population all arrived in South Africa after the Boers did.
Juan Jenkins
Not like any European country would accept white refugees anyway
Jordan Peterson
>thinks Belgians are Boers
This fucking guy. I bet you're the kind of self-flagellating cuckold who thinks that recent white immigrants to the USA share responsibility for slavery.
Brandon Gomez
Really? He just confirmed everything I thought was happening to the country. Not really much to "handle" except the terrible realization that South Africa's future isn't bright.
Chase Sanders
Boers were the farmers and miners in Transvaal and Oranje, the word boer literally means farmer. The cucks living around Cape Town were never Boers, just Afrikaners and various Anglos.
Matthew Davis
South Africans post on /pol/ all the time bro. It's a pretty cosmopolitan place man, you should come by sometime, maybe learn somethings.