Was the Empire really evil?

>implying living in an ewok commune is a bad thing

Humans must rise to the top of the universal food chain

coexistence is a lie, there can be only one race to ascend to godhood and BY ALL FUCKS I will make sure it is humanity who takes the mantle.

fuck aliens. The emperor did nothing wrong (in star wars or 40k)

Didn't Palpatine create the militarised empire to eventually fight off the Yuuzhan Vong?
Wouldn't that kind of make him a good guy, since he tried to save the galaxy?

They were a necessary evil. The Jedi had become corrupt, doing fuck all to prevent slavery and tyranny to the point of not even helping Anakin's mother.

The Sith were unprincipled but they had will and Sheev could easily overcome the corrupt inept Jedi, however he was in turn overcome by Anakin's self-sacrifice after his principles were restored by Luke.

Star Wars isn't a deep philosophy. It is essentially a coming of age story. Without your fat slut of a mother to whoop your ass when you're naughty you need to learn to be a good person on your own and that good can be stronger than evil.

oh wow, I thought RLM made up the Emperor's name

>Coruscant
>1 trillion population (68% human), not even including transients
>one huge city of a planet that spans for thousands of floors
>polluted to hell
How can people even live on that shithole?

this desu. the Empire gets rehabilitated in a lot of expanded universe stuff (that's no longer canon :^) ) written by people with far greater appreciation for moral dilemmas and shades of grey stuff than the guy who just wanted to sell toys.

Yes it was because they were in a fantasy story so purely evil factions can exist and they were purely evil.

Their leader (sheev) started all the wars that he later brought peace from.

Sheev was literally the guy that caused the disorder. Everything from the invasion of Naboo to the founding of the separatists was done by Sheeeev.

Misa thinks you're a spieciesist faggot #jarjarlivesmatter

You are not very convincing, Satan.

That being said, Humanocentrism was a mistake. Are some races clearly inferior to humans? Yes, just look at Neimodians. Are some races worthy of being included as equals of humans? Yes, there are several races that are at least as good as humans if not sometimes better at certain stuff, such as making of space ships or other technology.

And corruption and ineptitude of Republic was something that has long existing in the Republic, that was demilitarised and did nothing to prevent conflicts between members of the Republic other than to send "Jedi mediators", which are known for mediating with lightsabers.

>this whole edgelord thread
youtu.be/nHd3xfDzTg8

>why do you prefer evil?
>isn't it evil because it's wrong?

Duh, you stupid edgelords.

The destruction of Alderaan should be all the evidence you need but other than that not much actual evil is shown.

The Empire was evil. Change needed to happen, especially to the Jedi Order (highlighted by the prosecution of Ahsoka!! I mean fuck mace windu the pompous asshole) but starting a war and taking over as supreme emperor isn't the way to do it. Plus the empire would constantly harass planets and kill and steal too, plus oppress and censor. It wasn't on the up and up.

>we must bring balance to the force
>by completely exterminating the opposite side of ours
From my point of view the jedi are evil

Corruption ans ineptitude. The first is real the second is just an opinion. What one considers ineptness of a system can easily be looked at by another as deliberation and negotiation rather than heavy handed authoritarianism.

Sure, they're taking a few months to figure out a trade dispute. I guess it would go faster if you threatened to glass their planets and although that would technically be more efficient and less "inept" it would also be really evil.

As for corruption. That still happened under the Empire. Like, a lot. Their second in command (in the whole galaxy) literally made deals with known and notorious crime lords that controlled whole planets.

Well the other side started the genocide game first and refuse to quit playing. Just look at what literally only 2 of them Siths did.

Same way people live in New York, Mexico City and Delhi.

Kek

Would you believe that in the nu-Canon the New Republic was even more incompetent, in a way that almost any vote needed unanimous agreement?
What's worse, by the time First Order destroyed the Senate (which was changing planets it was meeting on to make everyone feel equal) there were two main factions: One was about making it even less decentralised (basically Separatists), while others wanted it more centralised, as they remembered that Empire was efficient in getting shit done. Even Old Republic wasn't as incompetent in making decisions as New Republic happened to be.

I will not endorse any system that wants to get rid of hot twi'lek waifus.

This lol

There was no complexity to the movies written by Lucas. They were blatant space fantasy with the evil lord heading the evil empire, magic, swords, etc.

There is a literal good side and bad side written into the story. The dark side of the force didn't even have an actual code until Knights of the Old Republic. They were just bad guys.

>in a way that almost any vote needed unanimous agreement?
How is that worse than any decisions needing no vote at all and subject to the whims and opinion of a single man?

Keep in mind this is for an entire Galaxy here, several actually.

That is billions of systems, quintillions of lives.

Under the thumb of one guy.

That is far more absurdly stupid than deadlocked bureaucracy.

New York is nothing like that. Manhattan is like Alderaan, while the Bronx is like Kashyyyk.

>Veeky Forums
>fantasy story
Did you not read every opening frame to every movie?
>A long time ago

New york is a steaming overcrowded pile.

>old, blame on jedi for making him ugly
>wears a creepy dark robe, no regal dressing
>lectures people on how much he loves being evil
>poor social skills, probably autistic
>has a very unoriginal evil laughter
>practices some mumbo-jumbo religion
>will expend taxpayer money on building weapons of mass destruction, and kills billions of innocents just because some guerrilla with outdated weapons
>wouldn't move a finger to deal with the Hutt criminal problem in the remote corners of the empire
>equips his army with shitty spaceships with no side-windows and soldiers with low-visibility helmets, probably designed by someone autistic as well.
>openly xenophobic, would kill wookiebros
>still, he has people supporting him

Are you guys dumb or what?

sounds like a pretty nice guy

/our guy/

That what (((they))) want you to believe

>Ended an era renowned for a thousand years of unprecedented peace by manipulating corporations and planets into starting a war, End the war through a political and ideological purge and institute a totalitarian state in its place which collapses after twenty five years.

>edgy kids: Th empire did nothing wrong! Sheev was a good guy!

The galaxy in general is, the republic was just as humanocentric...

The Empire introduced a heroic modernistic Stalinist like transformation of the galaxy.

Sorry aliums but you just suck at organising, humans are just better.

Also the theocratic Jedi with their peace and love philosophy of tolerance are absolutely faggy and cancerous. The Jedi are the archaic bourgeois defenders of space Capitalism, no wonder (((they))) started the rebellion against the Empire, that was a society of the people and order.

You're an idiot.

NO U

Ignoring Nu-Star Wars Disney canon bullshit like the writers of Rogue One calling Imperials literally human (white suprecamists), no the Empire was not evil only its leadership.

Sidious really did believe he was doing everything right for the galaxy and for humans, he even foresaw the rise of the Vong and which is why he was so obsessed with having a hugely centralized government, with a major theme of militarization, industrialization, and prepping the galaxy for the coming war while stamping out Confederate remnants, pirates, etc...the average Imperial is no more evil then the average Rebel. In fact most of the Rebels were god damn criminals.

Didn't Palps cultivate strife everywhere to feed the dark side? I don't think the empire is in any way redeemable. Kinda like the OJO.

Even though George Lucas states that the dark side of the force is equivalent to cancer

No.

>Ignoring Nu-Star Wars Disney canon bullshit like the writers of Rogue One calling Imperials literally human (white suprecamists),

That's not from the new Star Wars, it's been part of the story since right from the originals.

>Blow up an entire planet, killing millions, because maybe some rebels were on it

Seriously I didn't like the rolling back of the EU either but the Vong were fanfic tier.

And the new cannon isn't anymore SJW than the old cannon, which was filled with criticisms of Bush era programs and anti-alien racism.

>Sidious really did believe he was doing everything right for the galaxy and for humans,

Sidious would have thrown everyone else in the galaxy away for a chance at immortality.

The who?

The Empire brought back slavery.

Old Jedi Order. You know Yoda, Jules & co.

No it isn't. The average Imperial citizen or soldier wasn't any more xenophobic then the average Rebel or Republican. In fact in old canon, there are plenty of humans who are still anti-alien.

>Alderaan shelters rebels
>Alderaan has planetary shields and supplies military and financial aid to the rebels
>Alderaan's leaders were part of the Rebel/Alliance leadership

Vong were fine. Also you have no idea what you are talking about when you say things like "cannon".

>Sidious
Yeah he wanted to become a God, but that still doesn't change the fact the Empire was a breath of fresh air after the stagnation and corruption riddling the Republic for the last 2000+ years in the galaxy.
Slavery existed and was tolerated by the Republic.

>was tolerated by the Republic

Not in the Republic.

>hurr durr blowing up planets for no reason
Grand Moff Tarkin came up with the Tarkin Doctrine when Sidious handed him a moon sized space station that could blow planets up and told him to keep peace in the galaxy. His thinking was that consistent shows of force would keep the peace and lead to non-Imperial planetary leadership being forced to work with the Empire. Grand Moff Tarkin was also a fucking retard because that's not why Sidious made the fucking Death Star. That's not why the Empire's military was focused on heavy armor and artillery. That's not why Storm Trooper armor has an extremely efficient atmospheric regulation system but lacks blaster proofing. That's not why every Stormtrooper squad has anti-armor capacities and every single Stormtrooper carries a thermal detonator. That's not why the Dark Trooper program (Making advanced droid soldiers) was started. That's not why Sidious kept the massive droid factories from the Trade Federation/CIS. That's not why the Imperial Navy was absolutely fucking massive. That's not why every Star Destroyer is a full functioning city in its own right. That's not why a fleet of Star Destroyers can turn a planet to a barren ball of ash even without the Death Star. That's not why Sidious spent ludicrous amounts of time learning how to body hop instead of just bunkering down and being immortal through less tedious means. That's not why Sidious spent ludicrous amounts of time mastering the ability to make things hyperspace jump via the force.

>No it isn't. The average Imperial citizen or soldier wasn't any more xenophobic then the average Rebel or Republican. In fact in old canon, there are plenty of humans who are still anti-alien.

The ideology of the Empire itself is human supremacist, that's always been the case, right from when A New Hope first came out. The whole point is that they are basically space Nazis.

>the Empire was a breath of fresh air
No it fucking wasn't

It was literally Sauron in SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE

>Not in the Republic.
Wrong.
>Sauron in space.
You are retarded.

>hurr durr blowing up planets for no reason

That's not a little thing user. It's not a small deal, it's very much a big deal.

>His thinking was that consistent shows of force would keep the peace

Yes user, that is evil.

>The ideology of the Empire is human supremacist
No it isn't. Your confusing COMPNOR with the Empire. Just like how not every soldier in the Wehrmacht was a member of the Nazi Party or the same as the Waffen SS/Gestapo.

Of course it was evil. It blew up an entire planet to convince a woman to give up some information, plus maybe because there were some rebels on it. Whether the Empire was evil or not is not really a matter of debate.

Sidous made the galaxy more corrupt. He encouraged infighting amoungsts the navy. bureaucracy and corporate elite

>No it isn't. The average Imperial citizen or soldier wasn't any more xenophobic then the average Rebel or Republican. In fact in old canon, there are plenty of humans who are still anti-alien.

The concept of high human culture was taken directly from the EU. If anything the Disney cannon empire is more tolerant. Remember how Admiral Daala was the only female admiral and only because she was having sex with Tarkin?

>Wrong.
Not wrong, right. The Republic outlawed slavery within itself and tolerated slavery outside of itself. Any slavery going on within the Republic was illegal.

Kinda how the US outlaws slavery but still has human Trafficking going on within its borders.

Sidious did all of that because he, and all of the Sith going back to Bane, foresaw the Yuuzhan Vong invasion of galaxy. The Yuuzhan Vong were utterly immune to the force (Jedi learned to sense where they weren't because they were invisible to the force), their basic grunt armor was immune to lightsabers, they used biotechnology, and their ships were living organisms. The Vong would spew biotoxins down onto a planet and slowly Vongform it into an enormous factory to make more ships, weapons, and to turn non-Vong into mind controlled vioweapons.

Every aspect of the Empire, from Stormtroopers being able to continue operating on a planet undergoing Vongforming to Star Destroyers being able to operate in deep space long distances from planets to the Empire's hyperfocus on anti-armor capabilities was absolutely necessary to fight the Vong at all. The Death Star was never about keeping the peace, it was about blowing up planets if the Vong got their claws too deep into them as a means of waging war by attrition. Sidious even turned himself into a key portion of this as if things ever got too desparate he could just hyperspace-fling ships packed full of droids into the middle of Vong ships. Body hopping, as opposed to easier methods of immortality, was necessary to remain alive even if the planet he was on went tits up as he could just body hop halfway across the galaxy.

The New Republic and the Jedi got their asses kicked and only """"""won"""""" in the end because of author fiat. Sidious did absolutely nothing wrong at any point except trust Tarkin and Vader not to fuck everything up.

>Sidious made the galaxy more corrupt.
No, he didn't. Stop pulling head canon bullshit out of your ass from thin air here. Corruption existed in the Old Republic's Senate for a thousand years if not longer before Sidious was even alive.
>He encouraged infighting amongist the navy
No he didn't.
>bureaucracy
No he didn't. He simply took advantage of it, as had his master before him.
>corporate elite
The corporate elite like the Banking Clan, Commerce Guild, Trade Federation, and other mega-corporations were ratified into being their own political entities and micro-states by the Republic will before Sidious was even alive. Corruption existed before Sidious, long long before him.

>The Republic outlawed slavery
The Republic did not outlaw slavery in the Outer Rim, which it controlled, nor could it politically, legally, or militarily do anything about slavery in Hutt Space, Wild Space, or the Corporate Sector the latter which is also "part of the Republic".

Slavery existed in the Republic.

And Sidious didn't share this information with the rest of the galaxy... why exactly?
Could have been useful in dealing with the rebellion to actually, you know, explain why you're being a murderous fuck.

Tarkin isn't Sidious you mong. Blowing planets up as a show of force isn't something Sidious old Tarkin to do, it's something Tarkin thought up on his own.

The question isn't one of "hurr durr was Tarkin evil". Tarkin was a bumbling retard, the question is moot. The question is "Is setting up a galaxy wide autocratic state a worthwhile price to pay for not being consumed by an unstoppable horde of space-locusts that have torture as their species-wide favored sport and mind-rape as their favored passtime?"

And the answer is yes by the way.

>Slavery existed in the Republic.
The movies literally say the Republic outlawed slavery.

So sorry but your fanfic can go fuck its nonsensical self.

No they don't. The very first Prequel Trilogy movie even shows slavery on Tatooine which is in the Outer Rim.

>fanfic
You are retarded.

Are you seriously suggesting the ideology of Nazi Germany wasn't racist because not every soldier in the Wermacht was?

The governance of the Empire was based on a human supremacist ideology. I don't see how referencing the attitudes or opinions of individual soldiers is even relevant.

If that was so important maybe he should have shared that information? Maybe you shouldn't drag fan fiction into this especially when that fan fiction doesn't make any god damn sense because if there was a foreign military existential threat the very last thing any government especially an authoritarian government would do would be keep that to themselves.

They would use it to concentrate ever greater power within themselves and organize the populace around their ideals.

But no...That didn't happen and it a was all a big secret that justifies everything because your fan fiction is fucking retarded, you mong.

What the fuck would he say?

>Hey Theocratic-Autocracy that controls the galaxy and has spent the last several thousand years trying to wipe out every trace of my religion which competes with yours, let me explain to you what I, and other members of my order that you have been trying to wipe out for thousands of years have seen in visions that we can't confirm

And why would he tell the Rebellion? The Rebellion was never a threat to the Empire. Luke destroying the Death Star (and Vader's turning away from the Dark Side) were flukes that only resulted because Sidious did exactly what you're suggesting he do: Trust other people to handle aspects of a plan that has been in the works for over one thousand years.

Which isn't part of the Republic, doesn't accept republic currency and the lines:
>isn't slavery outlawed in the republic
>this isn't the Republic
Or something similar, exist.

And fuck you the old EU is literally a fanfic and the new EU is only barely not.

>fan fiction
Are you seriously saying the Yuuzhan Vong are fanfiction? Do you just have Disney's cock that far down your throat or are you seriously discussing Star Wars without knowing the basics?

Literally strawman the post.
>The governance of the Empire was based on a human supremacist ideology.
No it wasn't. The Imperial Senate is riddled with aliens and non-humanoid aliens before it was dissolved at the start of ANH, which means it was still allowed to exist as a political and legislative body full of non-human representatives for over 20+ years before the Emperor removed it. COMPNOR was the organization that predated the Empire that was always about human supremacy, which the majority of even Imperial humans, even the political and militarily elite disdained and hated. Nothing of what I said has to do with this retarded comparison with Nazi Germany, its like arguing because Hitler was bad, that makes the average soldier in the German army just as bad.

>Which isn't part of the Republic
It actually is. The Hutts simply have enough control and influence that its an extension of Hutt territory in all but name. This further underscores the weaknesses of the Republic in maintaining its territory and political status.

>old EU is literally fanfic tier
>Lucas has a literal fit over Anakin Solo
>fanfic tier
Nah.
>new EU is barely not fanfic tier
Disney said its as canon as the TV shows and the films, cry harder /co/shit.

>Hey Theocratic-Autocracy that controls the galaxy and has spent the last several thousand years trying to wipe out every trace of my religion which competes with yours, let me explain to you what I, and other members of my order that you have been trying to wipe out for thousands of years have seen in visions that we can't confirm

Literally why not? Why not go fully public on intergalactic news and say "I am a Sith, I am totally a Sith, I don't want to kill you like at all but there are these guys that do, also freedom of religion #stopthehate, #Sithlivesmatter".

>Literally strawman the post.

I have no idea what the fuck you are even on about.

>its like arguing because Hitler was bad, that makes the average soldier in the German army just as bad.

But it's you who seems to be making strawman arguments, I've never said anything about individual soldiers. I just said I don't even see how they're relevant.

>Are you seriously saying the Yuuzhan Vong are fanfiction?
They are literally fan fiction.

>They would use it to concentrate ever greater power within themselves and organize the populace around their ideals.
That's literally what Sidious did you retard. What do you think the human-supremacist ideology was for? Did you miss the whole

>Literally everything Sidious did down to a fucking T was absolutely required to fight the Vong

thing he was talking about?

>Maybe you shouldn't drag fan fiction into this especially when that fan fiction doesn't make any god damn sense because if there was a foreign military existential threat the very last thing any government especially an authoritarian government would do would be keep that to themselves.
And who would he tell? The Moff council? Handpicked toadies whose only job was to do EXACTLY what they were told and NOTHING else? He's a mind-reading space wizard who can open portals to other planets with his mind and is capable of seeing into the future to know what his actions will do. Just like he already said, Sidious had everything planned out and only failed because he did EXACTLY what you're suggesting he do: Stop micromanaging literally everything and let other people help.

He did. After he took power.

Yeah, now that Disney took over, but we're not discussing post-Disney retcons, are we?

You made a faulty assumption and put words in my mouth that I did not say and then went on to attack me on that basis. That is a textbook strawman, you mouth-breather.

Yup and this is why it's fucking sad reading what these autist spew. Lucas hates you faggots

>And why would he tell the Rebellion?
Because it's evil not to. And the whole argument here is over whether the Empire was evil.

Moffs and Grand Moffs are governors. The Senate still existed as the legislative political body of the Empire until ANH's start when they were "just" removed from power entirely and ceased existing. Moffs are in charge of star systems, Grand Moffs are in charge of entire sectors (thousands of star systems). The Imperial Senate was not always on board with what the Imperial military leaders and governors wanted.

That guy was talking about a comparison by making an example, that's not a strawman.

I forgot to mention: Telling everyone about the Vong WAS part of his plan. After they'd arrived. Not fifty years prior when it could be used to fuel ACTUAL revolts against his rule, but when he actually had proof that his visions were right, which would be some 21 years after his died (the first time) on the Death Star.