Which pagan religion is the best?

used to be graeco-roman until i realized how malevolent and awful the gods were and now Prometheus is the only divine being worthy of respect in that form of paganism

>enough to make a passable and earnest reconstruction
(In my mind it'd probably look similar to what Julian the Apostate was brewing).

I've got plenty on religious ethical codes, a few modes of initiation, aforementioned state religion, plus meandering stuff in my usual library link under Euro:
mega.nz/#F!AE5yjIqB!y7Vdxdb5pbNsi2O3zyq9KQ

You could say similar things about Greek/Roman mythology: a cobbled-together synthesis from many different city-states, massively influenced by Egyptian, Anatolian, and even Babylonian systems. Nevertheless, Graeco-Roman mythology is a recognizable phenomenon, and one for which the term "pagan" was specifically created (by early Christian polemicists.) It doesn't get any more "pagan" than that.

Just because something has origins and influences based in other traditions does not make it less of a thing in itself. Your statement, while correct, isn't really significant -- it's like saying, "you are not a person because you come from your parents." By the same standards, Taoism and Confucianism in particular are no less amorphous. Yet they are "religions" nonetheless, as is Shinto.

The key contention against this would be lack of continuity. A reconstruction is just a reconstruction. You can't just pick up fragments of a system that vanished 1500 years ago and claim it is the same tradition. Continuity is key.

I was more questioning the claim it's unbroken

>and one for which the term "pagan" was specifically created (by early Christian polemicists.)
I'd actually go a step further even more specificity, that since "pagan" has roots in a semantic notion of "rustic", early Christian polemicists weren't really referring to Middle and Late classical state or initiatory religions because by the time the polemics really kick into high gear a lot of that had already fractured but the *folk religion(s)* as represented by the Greek Magical Papryi was the intention as it'd grown more popular in the vacuum left by the collapse of a 'formal' Hellenic religion.

>Continuity is key.
Well, you have a few keys. Authenticity is one. And despite what people will tell you we CAN hit that mark.

Lineal continuity is sometimes a thing to be concerned about...if we're talking lineal systems (initiation chains)...now, if we wanna get into Gnostic systems, there are weird bishoprics out there which have a legitimate chain of hands back to Christ. Unfortunately for this Hellenic shit, the Oracles were kinda essential by the time Rome rolled around, Vestal fires notwithstanding. Greek shit has less of these concerns but the fact remains we don't have Baccanalian or Eleusinian initiatory scripts on tap.

It's a complex situation; I'd mostly agree, but with the caveat that while we'll never establish continuity, *reactivation* is still an option.

Mmm...the argument could be (and has been) made that it vanished into medieval shinbustu-shugo (blending with Buddhism) and was reconstructed in early-modern times.

The problem with this line of thought (very popular in modern academia) is that it is selective in vision. There has been a huge drive to "deconstruct" Shinto and say "it isn't really a thing." This started with post-WWII scholarship (trying to de-fang imperal fanaticism) and is also being hammered hard by globalists/postmodernists to break down Japanese nationalist identity. The problem with arguments like these is that they are polemical -- they are rooted in a desired conclusion rather than open-minded historiography. You could just as easily make a counter-argument, citing factors as diverse as the unbroken court ritual protocols, the presence of the Nihon Shoki and the Kojiki (as well as liturgical elements) throughout the last 1400 years or so, the fact that kami names and characteristics have remained distinctive for all of recorded history, the tabooing of Buddhism at Ise and (to a lesser extent) Izumo Taisha for centuries, etc. etc.

I think state Shinto divorced itself from the more organic parts of the religion by tying it directly to the ship of state and forcing mergers of shrines in a pseudo-theocratical way, but that's just my opinion

It's still a thread of continuity. Blanket? I dunno, I don't have a horse in that race, politically or religiously.

To root that back to what I do know, some of the remote Aegean islands still have a shitload of folk practices that root back to pre-Christian days, iirc.

This is sorta why I post the two(ish) modernist reconstructive movements. They have some historical roots which mitigate the need to identify lineal chains but recognizes we've lost so much we'll need to fill in the gaps ourselves with some serious Work (i.e. going through the Sloane grimoires to find themes of unity, etc.).

>muh continuity
This is only relevant for incense-sniffing mystifying poser "pharisees" wishing to collect money for their temples.

Paganism is the eternal religion. It eternally reasserts itself in many guises, regardless of what way the conscious mind wishes to rationalize it. Europe itself has never ceased being pagan.

Many a one have conversed with gods, says Socrates, thinking that they were human. The Sagas assert that Odin is a shapeshifter.

>The Sagas assert that Odin is a shapeshifter.
They also say that a giant tree can survive with only 3 roots, I wouldn't take it too absolutely

>Many a one have conversed with gods, says Socrates, thinking that they were human. The Sagas assert that Odin is a shapeshifter.
I certainly will not dispute this, and other similar tales from other cultures.

>This is only relevant for incense-sniffing mystifying poser "pharisees" wishing to collect money for their temples.
That implies that all community is to be directed to the temple. Some people like bouncing ideas off others. Again, I don't have much of a horse in the race of solitary v. group work. Whatever gets people to practice.

That´s because you´re obtuse.

Norse stuff is very much all or nothing considering Odin got all his knowledge from killing himself on said tree to learn the runes

The whole distinction between "pagan" and "Abrahamic" religions is dumb. Judaism itself emerged out of Canaanite "paganism". This well known by anyone with the minimal knowledge of religious studies. The only way that a deracinated, urbanite, universalistic, priestly religion like Judeo-Christianity could take root in "gentile" nations (redundant phrase) is to become pagan. Every Christian celebrates the winter solstice and the dying-and-resurrecting god. Some venerate the divine mother and ancestors on top of that. The cream of Christian, Jewish and Islamic theology and philosophy, ever eating the crumbs that fall from the table of their "pagan" masters, not always giving credit where its due, sometimes engaging in word-for-word plagiarism (Pseudo-Dyonisus I´m looking at you), is scandalously "pagan" for anyone who knows what to look for. Orthodox Christians and Sufis still engage in "pagan" neoplatonic theosis, while mendaciously denying it. But its all good. They could never not do so. No, not in any other way. What Christians call "paganism" is just the natural, eternal religion common to all. It is Logos. Christianity is just the priestly, rationalistic, bureaucratic, constructed post Christians clumsily try to hide this deeper religion behind.

>Judaism itself emerged out of Canaanite "paganism"
We've got a touch of solid info on the late Neo Assyrian incarnation of this religion:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanchuniathon#The_history_of_the_gods

There's lots of interesting implications to draw out of it, if you know what you're looking at.

>Supreme god is Elioun
>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elyon
>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elioud

It´s impressive how Eusebius gave the game away so early in the history of Christianity, and it went unnoticed for so much time. Perhaps it didn´t go unnoticed and perhaps this is why Eusebius never made it to Church father, to avoid attention to his work?

Your guess is as good as mine.
I only found out about Sanchuniathon via studying this:
>93
And the Sabbatick protocols for eclipse rites and erecting standing stones.

Sikhism.

I'd be hard pressed to class Sikhism, #based as it may be, with what my mind conjures when I hear the word 'pagan', though in late Christian/contemporary usage I guess it is.

I would add that Orthodox Christianity is the closest sect to having an esoteric and exoteric side. This is apparent when you read Gregory Palama´s defense of Hesychasm. Any unbiased reader will notice that in it, philosophical and theological systems, and even scripture itself is secondary to the experience of the "uncreated light". It scandalized Barlaam that the monks weren´t even reading the bible, they were just praying and meditating! Now, Orthodox Christians will deny this, and it is the height of dishonesty and hypocrisy, but their descriptions of the experience of the "uncreated light" are indistinguishable from the same in Plotinus, Porphyry, Iamblichus, Plutarch, and the "pagan" mysteries of classical antiquity. It´s the same thing. The bible, Christianity, are merely accidental with regard to that experience. The external religion gets the ball rolling, it provides the focus, the physical and psychic "infrastructure" as it were to engage in the experience, but it´s experience that matters. Again, Orthodox Christians will deny this. Let them. They´re supposed to. There are indentity and emotional issues involved and I get it. It doesn´t change anything. The elephant is still an elephant whether the blindfolded man choses to call it a trunk or a rope.

I'm curious about these practices in the Aegean Islands you speak of, could you perhaps give one of them as an example? I've always looked out for such things but most were menial or marginal, perhaps you found something else? The biggest (non-religious now) practice that connects us to Greco-Roman paganism are the Olympic Games and yet there are many examples of hidden or altered classical traditions such as the Spanish Tomatina, our celebration of Invernalia through Christmas and the likes

Pagan cults were only in Middle East - Greece -
Italy. Other Europeans have only fake legends about "druids" and other bs.

In terms of systematic coherence, I'd say the Graeco-Roman pantheon backed by a Neoplatonic exposition.

In terms of aesthetics, I really appreciate Tibetan Bön.

Ape my man, I digg your threads on /x. You're doing good work.

I'm not that much into modern stuff due to it's conflation with Mesmerism in the occult revival of the 19th century, but I have a strange fascination with Andrew Chumbley.

What occultists did he primarily draw from and what do you consider the quintessential value of the Sabbatean system?

I don't have my "class anthro" library on this partition. I'm THINKING it was in the domain animal husbandry and some courtship crap.

Bibliography (I've identified):
>Western
Sefer Yetzirah, commented by Aryeh Kaplan (particularly chapter six)
Book of Enoch
Thunder: The Perfect Mind Essentially all of
Rudolph's Gnostic material with special attention to the Mandeans.
Chaldean Oracles of Zoroaster
The Black Brick (Complete Golden Dawn)
Liber 65 Liber 7 Liber Stellae Rubeae
The Vision and the Voice AHA (Crowley)
Agrippa's Second Book of Occult Philosophy
Complete Austin Osman Spare (including artwork)
The first Typhonian trilogy (MAYBE the second)
Additional MSS XXXXX (Sloane manuscript)
Liber Asassiel (see above)
Sacrificial Universe (David Chaim Smith)
Kabbalistic Mirror of Genesis
Complete Magician's Tables Strong's Concordance, Godwin's Qabbalah, Numberman.net, Bill H.'s tables, etc.

>Eastern (Near/Far)
Gathas/Yasna (or the Avesta, these are Zoroastrian scriptures. The material of most note is related to Zahak and/or various dragons)
A King's Book of Kings (see above)
“Yezidism: Its Background, Observances, and Texts”, I think some of the Yezid influence comes via the hymns in this book. Anything that will give you a basic foundational understanding of Arabic astronomy/astrology/astrotheology, etc.
Kali Kaula by Jan Fries
Kaulajnananirnaya
Kiss of the Yogini
Triadic Heart of Shiva
Anandalahare
Hevajra Tantra
Shri Yantra and the Sidereal Astrology (Lokanath)
Tantraloka
Paratrisikavivirana

African Divination Systems: Ways of Knowing
Way of the Orisa
Kindoki
Palo Mayombe: The Garden of Blood and Bones
Pomba Gria and the Quimbanda
Exu
At the Crossroads

>Sabbatic Background:
Everything released by Xoanon and most of Three Hands plus various journal articles and excerpts. PARTICULARLY of Chumbley – Azoetia, Qutub, A Gathering of Masks, Sabbatic Kabala, and Psalter of Cain... not to discount the other material, but these seem to take primacy. Other texts will be referenced through these notes, as needed.
All works of Carlo Ginzberg
All works of Emma Wilby
Various early witchcraft manuscripts, bibliography coming...

>conflation with Mesmerism in the occult revival of the 19th century
I saw your post on Veeky Forums about how Crowley was more Mesmerist where GD was more Neoplatonic.
This take is wrong if you pick through the Z documents for Neophyte and the Adept rite comparing it against Liber Pyramidos/ThROA (which should be on the bibliography, along with Cadaveris/Tuat).

Very fine posts overall, but I fundamentally disagree with your central point;

>The whole distinction between "pagan" and "Abrahamic" religions is dumb.

I am particularly reminded of the story where Abraham smashed the idols of his father. While it is true that the Abrahamic religions drew heavily from the mythos, philosophy and praxis of their Pagan predecessors, the finer nuances were far from being identical.

Justin Martyr expressed this in an exemplary way - Christianity was not a new religion; it's doctrines was indeed to be found spread all over in the various Pagan traditions of old, but Christianity was the agglemated perfection of this long line.

The demons of Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria and Origen was nowhere near the same as the daemons of Plotinus, Porphyry and Iamblichus. The Christians considered these demons to be the cause of evil, indeed, as the old Pagan gods themselfes. The latter, however, considered daemons as intermediaries between ourselfes and the gods, both benevolent and maleficient.

In many ways, umbrella terms like "Abrahamic" and "Pagan" are useless, because both encompass several schools of thought that differ greatly. Consider, for example, the strong doctrinal differences between Plotinus and Iamblichus.

The Perennial Philosophy is beautiful in it's idealism, but ultimately flawed in it's realism and pragmatic value.

Very interesting. Thank you for the clarification. I take it that Azoetia is the quintessential work of Chumbley, no?

Chinese Paganism

Catholicism too, no?

syncretic pagano-christianity

>Azoetia is the quintessential work of Chumbley, no
Um, despite the name, it's a super fucking obtuse condensation of what are essentially basic practices with dream elaboration.

The Spine of the Work is the Dragon Book of Essex. I was unable to Understand Azoetia until I read and practiced DBoE.

Azoetia is the fever dream of a Neophyte.
DBoE is the flowering of an Adept.

To be super clear on what, exactly, you were wrong about, Crowley is FAR more historical and Neoplatonic than first glance indicates. The initiations lift from Chaldean Oracles to expand Golden Dawn concepts. The Thelemic Banishing rite (Star Ruby, Liber 25) works four classes of Archon: Iynges, Teletarchs, Syonoches, and then Daemones which aren't actually Archons but as you can tell they're clearly held to the traditional hierarchy.

Christianity

Catholisism

A.K.A. Roman-Catholicism

...

>Azoetia is the fever dream of a Neophyte. DBoE is the flowering of an Adept

Huh. Is Chumbley's system self contained or is it lacking certain elements due to his early death?

>To be super clear on what, exactly, you were wrong about, Crowley is FAR more historical and Neoplatonic than first glance indicates.

Perhaps I should clarify my stance on Mesmerism. It's origins, so far as I've been able to puzzle together, are Neoplatonic and can be singled down to four essential works;

>On Prophecy, Dreams and Human Imagination, Synesius
>On the Stellar Rays, Al Kindi
>Great Introduction to Astrology, Abu Ma'shar
>The Arabic Picatrix

These works was incorporated into the writings of the very same Renaissance magicians and Paracelsian doctors Mesmer drew from. What he did was in some respects ingenious, in other ways foolish -- he seperated the theory of astral causation away from the Platonic framework. The other significant achievement came with Jules Dupotet Sennevoy who elevated the faculties of imagination and willpower as the efficient cause of Animal Magnetism.

The reason I said Crowley was closer to Mesmerism is due to his heavy emphasis on preliminary meditative practices, his general dependence on Eliphas Levi for his magical theory and his notion of the True Will, all three which have distinct ties to the operative framework of Mesmerism.

Of course, both The Golden Dawn and Crowley are far too complex to be treated in such a simplistic and superficial manner. I was simply trying to illustrate a point to the OP that I rarely, if ever at all, see mentioned: that 19th century Mesmerism brought an influental paradigm shift. I thought he'd appreciate it, but instead I was told to fuck off. Classic Veeky Forums.

Say no more.

OP here, ive been proved completely ignorant. I never considered the occult so this thread has been interesting so keep it up or let it die, whatever

>Is Chumbley's system self contained or is it lacking certain elements due to his early death?
Depends.
Much of it remains unpublished.
I'd assert that with DBoE now public (written in 1996, released in 2014) it's self contained enough for you to get by.

I understand more of where you're coming, particularly w/r/t the influence of Picatrix (tricky historicity) from now but still think it's a bit reductive but >Veeky Forums.

As for the early death, as I said there is unpublished material. ZHA. Auraeon. Red Grimoire. Green Gospel + Psalters. Auraeon is coming. Excerpts of Red appear in Totemic Invokation of the Shadow Selves (prohibitively expensive at like 25 copies, put we have some pages of it). Green Gospels and Psalters are probably sprinkled all fucking over the Xoanon and Three Hands Press texts.

>I'd assert that with DBoE now public (written in 1996, released in 2014) it's self contained enough for you to get by.

I have some unfinished Daoist studies to do as well, so that's reassuring to hear. I'll check out the DBoE and see if it's up my alley.

>I understand more of where you're coming, particularly w/r/t the influence of Picatrix (tricky historicity) from now but still think it's a bit reductive but >Veeky Forums

The Latin Picatrix, which has been translated by both Greer and Kiesel, is not the same as the Arabic Picatrix. It leaves out a lot of theory. There's a forthcoming translation by Liana Saif which I'm looking forward to.

Harranian or not, I try not to think too much about it's historical origins. We know far too little about the magical practices of the Arabs to put it into context anyway.

An occasional arab will pop into /omg/ with weird tales of untranslated grimoires which bring up obscure webpages. It's neat.

Yeah, I've seen it. Ahmad Al-Buni seems to be one of the heavyweights. No translation has been made so far, but there's a very interesting lecture on him by the Warburg Institute: youtube.com/watch?v=JTdWHuBexmc