Did Soviet Union lose because capitalism is the better system, or simply because USA was stronger?

the soviet union disbanded itself

russians, yes the russians, thought theyd be better off without tiny countries as estonia and alike

the USA beating anything is a myth
ppl wanted to be free, so they started carefully look for that freedom when soviet leadership wasnt sure about becoming violent

you havent helped with anything, you were sitting there on your fat sharting asses and "welcomed" whatever was happening

Authoritarian regimes are top heavy on success. But if the system only churns out boot lickers and sycophants the system decays.

Had the Ukranian famine been better managed, If Brezinek wasnt a retard and tried to modernize the economic system away from oil production (The fall of oil prices did more to destroy the USSR than every single CIA plot) and if they just let the Hungarians and other eastern europeans try their own version of socialism, and Gorbachev still allowed free votes the USSR (although a bit smaller) would still be around and arguably better off than modern day Russia.

But this is all my opinion, too many things have to change that we might as well speculate what if the native americans obtained guns and horses earlier or if the pagan nords conquered all of britain. Or what if Japan successfully destroy the american pacific fleet. etc...

Oh please

People in those countries could see how much better life was in the USA and western Europe while theirs stagnated or decayed.

An objectively better world was sitting across and all the propaganda just fell flat. If nothing else, simply having a higher standard of living did much to discredit the political line.

Again, the USSR worked perfectly until the US manipulated oil prices and had proto-Soros bullshit. I'll take communism any day over your corrupt hedonistic cosmopolitan bourgeois society.

>they made think that soviet people weren't free
talking about propaganda

/thread

>Again, the USSR worked perfectly until the US manipulated oil prices and had proto-Soros bullshit

Supply and demand are above your ideology. Why were you so dependent on oil for wheat sales to begin with? The USSR's fall only had itself to blame

>people shouldnt be allowed to do things i dont like
youre like a left wing puritan dude LOL

>if the Holomodor had been handled better...
it was handled precisely as intended. ukranians starved because the central soviet forcibly stole ukranian crops in what was essentially attempted genocide via starvation.

False. The famine was caused by hoarding and kulaks killing all their livestock and burning there grain.

Well, the free peoples of the world were able to form a coalition of respect, the soviets only ever had fear and suppression to organize their satellites

Kulaks did not exist in the 1930s.

That's what the USSR was, and what the Russian people still want at a high level.

>coalition of respect
>yet the CIA interfered in elections in France, Italy, Britain to keep them loyal to the US
>yet the CIA supported banana republics across South America

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

It started stagnating in the late 70s.
US was fucked hard by the oil crisis in the 70s, ending the post war golden age. This was probably when the USSR was at its peak strength relative to the US.
The US managed to get through that fine, how come the Soviets couldn't? Does communism just not work?

does anyone have the full length version of this?

Retard. How about you tell a Pole, a Balt or a Hungarian how free he was under communism.
Then tell me how many teeth you lose when he smacks your stupid, spoiled fat American/Western European face in.

>it's OK to be a cunt because the amerilards are cunts

Really fired up my nervous circuits.

Poles and Balts are eternally butthurt, along with "Ukrainians". Hungarians, Czechs, Belarussians and Balkan countries all look to communism fondly though. They don't like the degeneracy the EU brought, its why in a lot of those countries you see a resurgence of the reformed ex-communist parties.

My point is, both sides did bad shit, but to paint the Americans as angels and the Soviets as the devil is retarded.

And it had a huge industrial head start...due to capitalism.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956

so free

The cold war was the Americans and the Russians letting their dick measurement contest give mental trauma to the whole world.

This is retarded. The USA was a very developed nation (I'm not going to deny this) while Russia was a complete shithole that started industrializing only under Stalin. Keeping that in mind, I'd say the Soviets did pretty well. It wasn't due to communism or capitalism, it was because Nicky was stupid to to the max which is why he got himself and his family killed.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d'état

Gotta love American freedom.

Also I should note that Stalin invited foreign companies like Ford etc to help industrialize the USSR. You have to be either retarded or CIA to keep things to the simplistic 'muh communism vs capitalism'.

Sauce?

You know shit, don't pretend to be a smart on this subject.
t. ukranian.

in america: can walk down the street wearing a trashbag arm in arm with your SO who you are in a homoesexual interracial relationship with whilst saying "fuck that nigger donald trump" to everyone you see and not face any legal consequences. but youre right, lets take away everyones property rights and relinquish all agency and autonomy to a centralized authority that will enforce proper standards of behavior because any sort of dissent is a potentially destabilizing internal threat. some people just know whats best for other people, right? we just need to take away peoples ability to make the wrong decisions, by any means necessary.

Here you go.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAZ

>It started in 1932 as NAZ, a cooperative enterprise between Ford and the Soviet Union, as a result of a Five year plan.

Ford HELPED muh ebil five year plan, which at its basis was the crash-industrialization of a medieval shithole that the CPSU had just taken over and wanted to compete with the rest of the world, unlike Nicky who was content with keeping it as backwater shithole as long as he was in power.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry_in_the_Soviet_Union
history.com/this-day-in-history/ford-signs-agreement-with-soviet-union
nvrg.org/Tours and Events/StalinistFords/Stalinist Fords.html

You can keep your American freedom, just stop enforcing it on countries who don't want it. I'm not saying the US should just adapt to an authoritarian model, I'm saying they should stop forcing their's on everyone else and stick to their borders.

>Nicky who was content with keeping it as backwater shithole
proof?

You're embarrassments

Tell the Southern states how free they were

Nigger?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

My whole point is both power blocs did bad shit though. I prefer the Soviets on their cultural policy but on foreign policy? Both power blocs were meddling dicks, the Americans in particular still are.

>why does Russia do x?
>because it is the sad reality of our world that the dynamics of power force countries to do x. Here an example of America doing x
>wahhh, whataboutism, your argument doesn't count

>Hungarians, Czechs, Belarussians and Balkan countries all look to communism fondly though.
No we don't. Stop being retarded.

Most normal people do you dumb Sorosoid fuck. Fuck off back to America.

I've never been to murica and I don't plan to. My aunt emigrated there after Soviets came on tanks in '68, but that's beside the point.
Who are these normal people? Because I know plenty of ordinary people and no one is anxious to go back to times when stores were mostly empty and you had to use newspaper to wipe your ass.
Fuck off back to your communist safe space you retard.

Because Stalin fucked everything up like the dumb thug he was and stained the name of communism with unnecessary blood forever, giving the west the perfect excuse to terrorize third world countries.

>he thinks violent uprising is acceptable in free society
>he thinks aggressor that lost a war have right to choose the system of governing and decide his foreign policy

Stalin made communism good. Off yourself.

Eastern yurop here, don't bother. You're arguing with someone who is essentially mentally ill. A great analog would be /natsoc/ threads on /pol/, where a belief in a shitty ideology to begin with gets transformed into a bizzare pseudo-religion. This meme-socialist is the same. No matter how many testimonies you'll give, infographics disprove, you'll find the same arguments used again and again and again. He's not misinformed, he just feels and believes.

It's a pity really, mods should really be doing a better job. /pol/ seems somewhat contained, but the ultraleft portion of it appears to be ignored for most part.

centralized planning in large scale economies is doomed to fail due to agregated structural inefficiency plus political motivation preventing self-repairing and optimization among the economic actors.

next question.

The fact that you put "Ukrainians" in quotes tells me everything that I need to know about you.

What often gets left out of the narrative is that several places we now think of as shitholes were among the most developed areas in the world prior to Communism. Cuba in 1950 was richer than most European countries per capita. East Germany was among Europe's richest regions. Czechoslovakia was richer than France per person. Even North Korea was much more well developed than South Korea, it's where the Japanese put all the industry. And to make matters even more advantageous the USSR flat out gave handouts to their satellites, which accounted for 15-30% of some of their GDPs. Like Cuba. They had every advantage.

Yet after Communism those countries were shitholes outperformed by countries that prior to liberal capitalism were poorer than most of Sub-Saharan Africa. Examples include South Korea, Taiwan, and rural Japan (fun fact: Japan as a whole was less well developed than European Russia before WW2).

Yes.

Sure thing m8

Both.

38% of Russians picked Stalin as the greatest historical figure in a poll this year. Not multiple choice. That's who comes to Russians' minds

You are not Eastern Euro, or maybe just a retarded millennial. People there no Stalin saved them from Hitler's genocide. He raised millions from poverty. He took a besieged dying power that could have gone the way of the Ottomans or Austrian and made them a super power.

MAN OF FUCKING STEEL!!!!!

...

Communism made Russia weaker than how it could potentially be. Russia had already started industrializing before the Soviet Union. For fuck's sake, one of the reason Germany went to war with Russia is because they wanted to cut Russia's economy down (particularly its steel productions, IIRC). Even if there were no Soviet Union, it would still have industrialized, and probably been better because they wouldn't have needlessly antagonized the United States or the United Kingdom (like how they rejected the Marshall Plan, etc.). Sure, them being the two largest countries still would have turned them into rivals, I wouldn't deny that, but the Russians would have fared better.

>but the Russians would have fared better.
If they stayed a multi-party constitutional republic or constitutional monarchy (forgot to add).

>free people are happier and more productive than those living under the boot of totalitarians.
>more productive
What about China then? Or LKW's Singapore, South Korea, etc.

They were exporting the grains in order to acquire industrial machinery IIRC. Yes, in a fucking famine. I can't believe there are still unironic tankies nowadays.

Poor leadership and a command economy destroyed the Soviet Union.

>commies are radical atheist judaism/christcucks
What a surprise.

That tends to happen when you have a massive, urban, industrial population and only 10% of your land is arable.

Contrary to American propaganda, a lot of people in Eastern Europe actually miss the old days. People were poor but homelessness was rare, drug issues other than alcohol were very uncommon, streets were generally safe, people worked on their own interpersonal networks, unemployment literally didn't exist, and the government actually made an attempt in most places to keep public spaces maintained. There were periodic shortages of some consumer goods, but people got by, and with government programs daily life could be very simple.

The evidence against your point is literally everywhere. Many people exist who miss the old days of communism in Eastern Europe, no matter how much right-wingers deny it.

> russian
> """""polls"""""

The USSR almost collapsed in the early 20's because of Lenin's retarded economic policies which forced him to adopt capitalist reforms in the country and push harder towards industrialization (which is the only reason they survived the 2nd World War).

Both really.
>The postwar Econ boom for the US puts us ahead
>The US has always been an individualist country. Contributing to its continued dedication to capitalism.
>The Soviets continued to slump due Leonid Brezhnev. His insistence on protecting the nomenklatura basically created a noble class (oh the irony), creating brutal stagflation. In addition, his doctrine ballooned military spending and he conveniently forgot that his country had more people than just the military. Also the oil crash.

> USSR worked perfectly
It barely worked and the only thing that feeds them alive was good oil prices. Soviet economy was ineffective as fuck.

>KGB colonel in charge of Russia
>USA getting BTFO of the Middle East
>American Civil War 2.0 an actual possibility

Who won the Cold War again?

The country that doesn't have 40% rates of HIV in teenagers.

>t. Jamal the Marxist-Redditist

The final straw for Perestroika was because Boris Yeltsin visited the US and was staggered by the quantity and selection of food in the grocery stores.

beelineblogger.blogspot.ca/2016/01/how-supermarket-visit-brought-down.html

63% of Romanians prefer Communism to capitalism

spiegel.de/international/germany/homesick-for-a-dictatorship-majority-of-eastern-germans-feel-life-better-under-communism-a-634122.html

57% of East Germans say GDR had more good sides than bad:

spiegel.de/international/germany/homesick-for-a-dictatorship-majority-of-eastern-germans-feel-life-better-under-communism-a-634122.html

73% of Hungarians, an overwhelming majority, prefer Communism to capitalism. Only 8% say they are better off under capitalism.

spiegel.de/international/germany/homesick-for-a-dictatorship-majority-of-eastern-germans-feel-life-better-under-communism-a-634122.html

These surveys singlehandedly obliterate anti-communist propaganda. If Communism was so evil, why do overwhelming majorities of East Europeans say they lived better under Communism?

There's literally no adequate response to this. You have no argument. Communism wins again.

China?

quit your memeing m8

> East Europeans
> ever lived under real communism
It was basically liberalism light, socialist in name only.

USSR/Warsaw Pact was very much against western degeneracy.

>calling USSR/Warsaw Pact liberal

Holy shit, this is how I know you're an uneducated yank. The Soviets were way more conservative than you and didn't allow degeneracy like faggotry to run rampant. This is why even today, Eastern Euros are resistant to the LGBTBBQ propaganda imposed on them by your government's puppeteer-in-chief George Soros.

A drunk and a traitor, just like the USA's own Bill Clinton.

Based. Are you from Eastern Europe lad?

You know this graph doesn't exactly help your case much.

>communism wins
>died out within a three year period in every country in Europe
top lel
Also your poll states that it's young people who say the GDR was better when they barely had to experience life in it (like any remaining commies in the west).

If life was so good in East Germany then they wouldn't have built a wall to force their people to stay in it against their will.

The most incredible part about these polls is that it's not even a close contest. It's not like it's a 50-50 split. It's always at least a 60-40 split, at most 90-10 split in favor of Communism.

Another merciless porky slaughter: 81% of Serbs say life was better during Communism.

balkaninsight.com/en/article/for-simon-poll-serbians-unsure-who-runs-their-country

That means only 1/5 of people don't like Communism.

In 7 out of 11 former Soviet Republics, vast majorities again prefer Communism:

gallup.com/poll/166538/former-soviet-countries-harm-breakup.aspx

YIKES looks like I fucked up the links. Here are the links for Romania:

balkanalysis.com/romania/2011/12/27/in-romania-opinion-polls-show-nostalgia-for-communism/

Hungary:

pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2010/04/28/hungary-better-off-under-communism/

>The poll was conducted by the Center for Social Democratic Studies (CSSD), Friedrich Ebert Stiftung foundation and Center for Free Elections and Democracy (CeSID) in September of this year and it included 1,813 respondents.
Why do people take this shit seriously again? Just try and set up a communist government in these countries again and they'll put you on a crucifix.

nice downplaying fgt

> didn't allow degeneracy like faggotry to run rampant
Instead of harmless faggotry, the much more dangerous degeneracy of alcoholism was promoted by a state for the flow of cheap money.

If by "they" you mean capitalists, I agree 100%

Nice meme but alcoholism was rejected as well. The whole concept of a New Soviet Man is about a man loyal to his family (family values) and restraining himself from indulging in degeneracy like alcoholism and drugs.

Alcoholism was a thing in the Yeltsin years where they tried very hard to emulate the USA degeneracy.

You mean reasonable people who actually survived under communist rule unlike the LARPers on this board and the kids they keep polling? Yes.

Nigger we are still against degeneracy. We were conservative in spite of communism not because of it.

Fucking this

> Alcoholism was rejected as well
So rejected that it was on the fucking rise until Gorbachev became that desperate that he just created prohibition law.

Daddy Stalin was a gift, and we just spit, shit, came, pissed and puked on it after we didnt "like" it anymore.

You still didn't explain why 60-80% of Eastern Europeans (depending on country) prefer Communism over capitalism.

Because they are brainwashed by leftism.

>polls of less than 2,000 people signify the opinions of millions of people across Europe who actually revolted against communism
I'll bet you unironically believe in censoring the people in order to make sure nothing bad about the government gets out too.

theres a bit of misunderstanding here

eastern block countries dont miss communism per se

but they miss the positive aspects of it, employment, financial safety, state helping them with housing, holidays, babies etc

and if you take a look at the countries and who or how governs them, its pretty clear they like Daddy government to take care of them, to promise 13th month pension, to promise jobs, to protect them from bad loans THEY made and so on

its a bit funny because they hate communism, commies bad, hiss hiss, but please think for me and take care of me Mr. Prime Minister

you are retarded, get lost
also retarded, go and find out who was Gallup and what does representative surveys mean

>Hungarian
The Hungarians didn't hate communism, they hated Russians. The '56 revolution was carried out mostly by communists that had become disillusioned with the Soviet system.