So I was curious about the plight of women...

fucking this.
Thoguh to be fair, he did specifically say "modern" feminism.You know the whole, dying your hair stupid colors until it falls out, hipster piercings to be edgy and GIIIRL GAMERS?
I would appreciate the theory of rape culture more if it was presented more as a philosophical argument than a "fact" as an example of women being oppressed by men. And of course if you disagree, you are a "misogynist and part of the problem." More so, considering one can argue men are in a way affected by rape culture since they are not seen as being victims and any circumstance of rape is their fault for being "too weak." Again, victim blaming.
The argument seems to be that we allow rape as a culture to go on by putting all the pressure on the victim to protect themselves rather than put pressure on the perpetrators to not commit the crime. Unlike how we do not put pressure on people to protect themselves from murder or serial killers, we simply say those people are terrible. After all, it can happen anywhere, similar to rape(well more so in the case of women than men).
This may create an idea that the rapist is somehow justified in doing what they did since "she shouldn't have been out that late" or "dressed that way."

There's some truth to the idea that a victim can be partially to blame. If I leave my car parked in Detroit with the keys in the ignition and it gets stolen should I assume that I wasn't at fault at all? Likewise if a half naked women stumbles into a house party shitfaced and gets raped, she needs to understand that she isn't blameless. We embrace personal responsibility regarding everything else but rape victims are suddenly exempt.

the problem with this argument again, and again, that it is what is wrong with society and out impression of women. That woman are objectified more than men and this is often why rape is so common against them. A car, wallet, or money is an object. A woman is a person with feelings, right to self preservation, and respect.
Why didn't you use an example of a drunk naked man stumbling into a gay bar? Of course, gay men tend not to rape men no interested in them( a.k.a straight men) but you get my point.
>inb4 /pol/ and /r9k/ virgin sperging against women.

our impression*

The only people who care already think rape is wrong.

Do you really believe that rapists care they're objectifying women? No amount of PSA's about "No means no" or whatever will stop them. What WILL stop them is personal responsibility. Don't want to be victimized, you are your own first line of defense.

How did they get the mentality in the first place is what is being argued. Or is what I would argue. Many feminists already see it as fact.

You're pretending all rapists have anti social personality disorder. While this is true for quite a percentage, to pretend all of them do is just wrong. A lot of it is also the idea that "they can get away with it." Also rape can be used as a punishment as with any other form of violence. Facts already show that a woman is more likely to be raped by someone she knows anyway.
And if we are to say that rapists all are psychos in the first place, doesn't that make it even worse that we victim blame at all? how can a woman control if she meets up with a psycho? And if pscyhos are the only problem, how women dress is definitely irrelevant then, because all the psychos objectify them already and take what they want regardless. So you kind of still trap yourself with that argument regardless.

>how can a woman control if she meets up with a psycho?
By carrying a gun. By staying aware of her surroundings. By not getting black-out drunk around strangers.

All the same things men do to avoid becoming a victim of crime.

No discounts that women should be aware of their surroundings or walk in groups. At least I don't. You have to admit though, men don't have to worry much about getting black out drunk in front on stangers because they are men. Even gay men, as I said, tend not to rape straight men. People seem more content to take advantage of women. Why is that? And at what point do we ascribe some blame to people other than woman? Why should a woman have to feel more scared about being drunk at a party than a man?
And by blaming the victim anyway in this situation, this is an example of giving the perpetrator the go ahead to feel as though it is fine as long as they can get away with it.
They shouldn't just know that fucking a person black out drunk may cause a problem or make the person feel violated?

Because women don't have sex drives as strong as men.
Women are weaker than men.
Female hardware is a lot harder to force onto someone.
That is why women are raped more.

>That woman are objectified more than men and this is often why rape is so common against them

I think the fact that women are unfortunately generally weaker then men is the primary factor of women being raped more than men at least over simply being objectified. Brutes find them easy to brutalize and hold power over.

You want to end rape, stop subsidizing single-motherhood. The single biggest factor in determining who will be a criminal is how many parents they had. You want men to treat women right? Maybe make sure kids have a good male role model growing up. Stop making divorce and family court always side with the woman.

>They shouldn't just know that fucking a person black out drunk may cause a problem or make the person feel violated?

They know this, cavemen knew this. People hurt people for the sake of power, greed and selfishness. There will always be these kinds of people

I used a woman as an example because rape victims are primarily female. The point works fine with a man too. If I walk through the worst part of town at 3 AM drunk and I get jumped and robbed is it my fault? Partially yes because I made a stupid fucking decision. The problem is people are focused on changing society's attitude when that's not the problem. The vast majority of people recognize that rape is wrong. The people that are committing rape don't care that's it's wrong. No amount of PSAs will change that. Think about it like driving. You can't control if someone else is gonna run a stop sign, but you can control whether or not you're in the middle of the intersection when he does it.

Yes, it is.

Patrice O'neal used to have a good bit on the differences between men and women. At the end of the day, it comes down to the pickle jar. Men can open it and women can't. It's a fundamental law of the universe that can't be ignored, no matter how hard you try. I like Amemea Sarkisian because she embraces these differences in a positive way which is really the only thing you can do. The alternative of temporarily covering it up under the guise of morals and societal expectations works...right up until some insane male decides fuck you and does whatever he wants to a woman anyways.

I don't know why women think they are so special just for being weaker than men. Why don't we look at the differences between weak men and strong men. Don't you think the weaker men feel discriminated against too? Sure they do. But who cares. They aren't a cute innocent girl ;) (well they unironically are these days now lmao)

Men abuse women because they're weaker, women abuse children because they're weaker. No 5'3 manlet is fucking with a female Olympic lifter because she'd destroy him.

I love whenever someone brings up the weak man vs strong man comparison, because all the white knights disappear into the hills and instead let their self-loathing alter egos take over the fight.

Weak man gets beat? He deserved it. Failed man. Should've learned to fight. ITS NOT VICTIM BLAMING CAUSE REEEEASONS.

I don't support single parenthood. Don't assume my politics to change the subject.
People in general need to be taught not to rape, not just how do you avoid it. The latter is what is emphasized more an I'm arguing it should be the other way around. Philosophically, one can argue at a some small level, it could goad people into making up excuses as to why raping was justified or how they can talk themselves out of guilt. "Well, this girl is out dressed like that so it's her fault" she is my first victim." Then it goes further with the whole black out drunk thing, which even more easily affects men as well.

I don't agree with what divorce court lawyers, men and woman, do but how do you plan to stop it? The problem is our society doesn't value marriage like it should. People don't even want to try or they just jump into it willy nilly. It's selfish yes.
In the case of a serious divorce such as someone being abusive that is just an unfortunate situation that will require a divorce.
Adultery, as well to a small degree but I guess you can argue couples can try to work that out more for the sake of the kids.

Yes that is a factor but objectification is a huge reason as well.
Women don't necessarily have a sex drive weaker than man. I would stick to the theory that men are stronger more than "men are instinctive animals that can't control themselves" if I were you. That's less misandric in any case.

>People hurt people for the sake of power, greed and selfishness
Why do you think everyone who is a rapist is a psychopath? And even if so, how then is it justified to blame the victim when these type of people will always exist?
You won't rape a girl just because she is wearing a bikini and heels in the middle of the night, because you're a decent human being, yet you will bitch at that same girl when a douche or psycho rapes her?
Isn't that a bit backwards to you?
Yes, not everyone is nice, but how do we all know for sure when we meet up with these people unless we treat everyone as a potential suspect? Is that fair to men for all woman to treat you like a potential suspect? NO! so why create that social environment?

>Yes that is a factor but objectification is a huge reason as well.

Women clearly objectify men in real life. But a man is more likely to get raped (by force) by another man because he we was weaker than the rapist.

If women had the power to take dick by force they would

Objectification is a low percentage of the reason for rape.

Again, you said robbed not raped?
I think many woman would be a bit less concerned if getting mugged was the only thing that happened to them walking home drunk at 3am.
a wallet and money is just a wallet and money. Hell half the time, you can just offer that and the robber will leave you alone before they beat you up.

No! that is a philosophy of paternalism that weak men should feel bad for getting beat up and deserve it. That if a man is raped he is now a woman. And worse, if a man is raped by a woman he deserves it for being a weak "pussy." Most feminist are working to end such bias by putting a stop to harmful gender roles.

Why should a man feel like less of a man for admitting he was victimized, regardless the gender of the perpetrator?

>Why do you think everyone who is a rapist is a psychopath?

Because rape and pedophilia are the most irrational crimes in the history of crime.

Almost every other major crime, theft, murder can possibly justified on some level under certain circumstances. There is no rationalization for rape at all under any circumstance that makes rational sense.

> Is that fair to men for all woman to treat you like a potential suspect? NO! so why create that social environment?

I am very pessimistic about human nature. Everyone should be suspicious of everyone until they prove themselves trustworthy

It's not about percentage, it's about the factoring. All these factors can weight in with every rape is what I am arguing.
Yes woman are weaker, most people are heterosexual, AND woman are objectified more. Notice I never said men can't be objectified at all. MRA love to put those words in people's mouths. Are you one of them? Otherwise, gay men would be raping men at high percentages even outside prison.The latter is more about power even more so than rape against woman btw.
The few woman who are strong enough, do sometimes rape weaker men. Woman have more of a chance to rape men who are black out drunk though. Even then, they do it less then men it seems. Though we could arguably be missing data since men are not allowed to be seen as victims of woman in our society, which is a problem obviously. We will see if that changes once these stereotypes are driven out of existence.

So you're ok with a woman pepper spraying you when you ask her for directions or flat out ignoring you? Or walking faster and to another side of the street when she realizes you're a man and you're walking behind her? I have heard tales of such happening and it saddens me that it has to come to this.

It' not irrational when rapists can find a way to rationalize it on some internal level with sayings such as " she was dressed like that so" She was black out drunk soo...(it's not like I will get caught now anyway).
Now obviously psychos will not care about this but again, imo I think it is still irrational to blame the victim under such a circumstance since we cannot always know who is a psycho and who isn't.

How does the nature of the crime refute my point? If you know that what you're doing is dangerous, then why do it? Like I said you can't control the actions of others, only your own. Obviously rape is bad, and my sympathies go out to rape victims. I'm not saying an irresponsible woman deserves to be raped, I'm saying many sexual assault cases could have been solved with better decision making.

>selfishness, greediness, and power-hunger are traits solely restricted to psychopaths.

>I would stick to the theory that men are stronger more than "men are instinctive animals that can't control themselves" if I were you. That's less misandric in any case.
"Theory"
I'm saying that men have a stronger urge to fuck, so if they're not in their right mind they're going to be more likely to rape than a woman is. I am perfectly capable of controlling myself, same with the vast majority of men who will never rape or commit any sort of crime in their life.
But i think you already knew what i meant.

You're just proving his point. If rape is so much worse than being robbed then logically women should take more steps to assure their own safety. Women aren't treated like property anymore, and they have all the same rights as a man. That also comes with the responsibility to keep yourself safe.

I'm saying
1. it's not true that all rapists are mentally ill/psychos
2. Again, considering you and others you know wouldn't rape a girl just because she is dressed a certain way, why bitch the same girl out because the douche or psycho decided not tp give a fuck?
I think it is backwards to blame the victim or distribute "oughts" to them when the only blame should go to rapists who are not following the social rules.
even he is admitting all rapists aren't mentally ill.
I'm saying you can't prove that many could be prevented just by girl not dressing a certain way(actually I don't know any man with logic really argues this anymore) or because they are drunk. I told you most rapes happen by a person they know. Look it up.
Perhaps all women should carry a gun and pepper spray, it's still ridiculous that should a woman forget to carry these things, we can call her an an idiot and say she could have done more(on top of her already being traumatized, thanks a lot).
If you say all this, then you admit that woman are oppressed in society and men less so. Not only that, but you can't get mad if woman treat all men as potential rapists. Something I think is extreme and pretty sad if it has to come to that.

>subsidize single-motherhood
yes, because once they get the foodstamps they can never get enough :^)

For whatever it's worth, most victims of rape in the strictest sense of the word, not some ridiculous legal definition of it, are male. It's male prisoners who are raped. I know that contradicts the popular cultural narrative we've all been made to accept, but it's true. Male rape victims easily outnumber female ones. If you're referring to the number of rape victims of either gender prison populations notwithstanding, then you're probably right that it's mostly women/girls who're raped.

Even then, though, the law doesn't really recognise males as able to be actual victims of rape, maybe younger ones, but usually only if at the hands of a male perpetrators, whereas with female perpetrators, they're often not labeled as such (rapists, that is) or are labeled as statutory rapists at worst and also rarely get as severe a punishment as a male counterpart would, assuming they're penalised at all, of course.

Admittedly I'm too lazy to cite sources, so feel free to offhandedly dismiss this entire post and any claims made herein, but it is all true. Note this image related to see how much leniency females are generally treated with by the law that would punish a male offender responsible for the same offence, far more severely.

>of a male perpetrators
MAMA MIA, WE A MARIO NOW, FAMIGLIA

>but you can't get mad if women treat all men as potential rapists
Except I totally can and would be justified in doing so. Do you realize how bad this sounds when you replace women with anything else? According to U.S. crime statistics blacks commit more crime.
>but you can't get mad if white people treat all black people as potential criminal
If you can't tell, it's blatant racism, and for a woman to treat me as a potential rapist just for being a man would be blatant sexism. If a woman treated me this way for no reason I'd tell her that I hope she gets raped.

You just proved my point though! That's why we should created a climate where that happen by blaming victims. How is a woman supposed to know when the person near her is a psychopath or not? Or a douche bag trying to take advantage? Why must women have to dear this while men have little to worry about when it comes to being sexually violated by even gay men outside prison?
We don't blame whites or anyone when they get mugged by a black thug just because of stats. We blame the thug himself.
I know about male prisoners being raped and that is a problem too. I addressed male victims in general earlier when I was bringing up ways rape culture can be argued as a philosophy instead of a flat out fact. Stop with the what about is.
Most of it is the climate of prison with domination and power ruling the culture however. But yes rape is often about power as well as objectification. Woman can be raped too as a way for them to be "punished" beat up to assert authority. It used to and still does happen.
The military is another example though for women it is mostly objectification, men and women likewise are affected because of the dominace culture there.
We shouldn't blame the victims though, they already feel like worthless shit about it anyway(women that it's their fault for being weak or "stupid," men that it's their fault for being weak) Those assholes and psychos shouldn't be raping period and that's how I see it.

They always could participate.

We shouldn't* create
Deal with* not dear

>woman are objectified more
[citation needed]

It's true that a victim can be unwise, but that doesn't imply they are to blame. There's a fine line between telling a victim "what you did was a dumb idea, you could have gotten killed!" and actually saying "I blame you for this and believe you are deserving of punishment!". I mean obviously you wouldn't consider a rapist and their victim "partners in crime" or anything. Yes, it takes "two to tango" so in some sense they are both "causally responsible," but that doesn't mean they're ethically responsible for the occurrence of the rape. Moral blame and metaphysical causality aren't the same thing.

All the bad things you hear about feminism might be true and all, but holy shit are the beta/omega males of the Internet insufferable about it.

I meant sexually obviously. My point still stands.
My proof. Type in the word "attractive people" or "sexy people"
See how many women come up in the Google image search compared to men.
I'm waiting. See the type of poses women are in compared to men(yes I'm going there) pic related. Yes most are exaggerated (obviously putting men in traditonally female clothing looks weird) but the point is how women are made to stand and look at the camera compared to men.

I don't believe that physical strength is the decisive factor.

It's certainly not in industrial society.

The strong nig-nog benching 300 lbs makes 14$ an hour while the wimpy white guy makes 100,000$ a year

Wallstonecraft and Simone De Beauvoir

If the victim is unwise, they can be blamed for their own gross negligence, a time-honored Veeky Forums tradition. Still, that discussion is mostly for intellectual curiosity. A victim does not emotionally recover by learning how much blame can be allocated to them. A victim will not feel enlightened knowing that the rape was 35% their fault and 65% the attacker's. The main concept behind blaming, besides schadenfreude, is to have people acknowledge that their decisions can put themselves in danger (even when they didn't mean to) so they can protect themselves. Yes, society and government should be working towards not having people rape each other in the first place, but the most important line of defense for your protection is yourself. Your friends, your government, your society cannot protect you if you end up alone in an alleyway with an attacker. All individuals should be taught how to recognize vulnerable situations so that they can minimize risk to their own safety. That's what it means, in my opinion, to have personal responsibility.

But there's still this implication in what you're saying, it's like you think something always could be done. I mean take clothing/attire for instance; day-in-day-out people will say "well the victim should have been wise enough not to wear XYZ..." but you can go on pornhub etc and look up fetish videos of women in full business attire. A victim-to-be can really only affect the probability something happens to them, the only person who ever has complete control is clearly the assailant. When you're looking at a crime in hindsight, you can easily say "this wouldn't have happened had the victim not done XYZ," but if that wasn't something that could have been without-a-doubt determined beforehand, you can't say the victim was willfully ignorant.

>All individuals should be taught how to recognize vulnerable situations so that they can minimize risk to their own safety. That's what it means, in my opinion, to have personal responsibility.
And I agree, but that's not always applicable. If we were talking about healthcare, I could go on and on about how the liberal "all for one, one for all" universal healthcare ideal ought not go hand-in-hand with the liberal "giving myself a heart attack is my right!" body image/landwhale acceptance movement. But when you're talking rape, it isn't a person damaging themselves, it's two people. As stated earlier, for all the victim-to-be knows, dressing as modestly as possible might completely backfire if their potential assailant ends up having a kink for it of some sort. You can't set standards that can't be met.

>will never

Desu. Are you aware of CRISPR? Shit going to get real in 20 years.

I get it but your example is not even how most rapes happen anyway and I keep saying this to no avail. Yes we can only do so much to help but I think the same thing goes for a victim can only do so much to protect themselves besides treating every person as a potential suspect (in this case all women treating men as such) which is not fair to men and ridiculous for women to have to do.
It basically boils down to, I can't dress this way because I'm a woman, I can't get drunk at this party because I'm a woman. I can't go anywhere alone without a gun and pepper spray because I'm a woman. This is quite oppressive.
Besides woman usually walk in groups anyway these days at night.
And again, most rapes aren't by total strangers, further disproving the all rapists are psychos who we can't educate meme.

technology ultimately negates biological constraint. A woman can pull a trigger as fast as me, can press a button as fast as me, and can type as fast as me. I would argue women are the more suited to modern life as that society, as far as I am concerned and informed, has been made for the preservation of women and children for their economic value.

>Hey, goys. Aren't those people who whine about evildoers' evildoing as bad as the ones whose evilness they're whining about? They're so insufferable for being bothered by all of that evil that affects our lives, directly or indirectly.

>muh objectification muthafucka
Complete non-argument. You're just bitching about the nature of the male sex drive. Someone who is willing to commit rape isn't going to change if you say "Hey, that's a person with feelings!" They know that. They either do not care or they are just flat out incapable of empathy.
Btw men become partially retarded when they interact with attractive women. Crying about it won't change anything.

scientificamerican.com/article/why-interacting-with-woman-leave-man-cognitively-impaired/

Objectification is part of the argument, more when it comes to female victims.
1. I'm not bitching about the nature of the male sex drive because I believe men are more rational than that to let it completely turn them into animals. Talk about lack of personal responsibility there.
2. you just disregarded the former argument anyway by now assuming that all rapists are psychopaths which I have said for the last time, is not true.
>Men become partially retarded when they interact with attractive women.
Not true for all, but that can be changed if spergs like you are taught that woman aren't "mysterious other worldly" creatures but are PEOPLE with faults, interests, and feelings just like you. Seriously,I can understand being shy around someone you really like but being a bumbling fools around every girl you talk to is ridiculous.

3. I'm not just crying about it; I'm arguing that changing the culture response will help and that starts with a cease in blaming victims. Btw, men in my philosophical approach, are probably affected by rape culture too. It's all victim blaming and making it possible to rationalize rape on some level.

Women are the primary perpetrators of women's sexual objectification though, from the fashions they pick to the way they portray themselves on social media and in society

>Objectification is part of the argument
Objectification is bullshit term. You're just demonizing the way male sexuality works.

> you just disregarded the former argument anyway by now assuming that all rapists are psychopaths
No I said that some rapists do not care about the feelings of their victims. Those ones are just assholes. The ones that totally lack empathy would be mentally ill.

>Not true for all
You didn't even read the scientific study on the subject that I linked. My point was that if you combine a person who is generally an aggressive prick with the cognitive impairing traits of sexual arousal, you might get a rapist.

> I'm arguing that changing the culture response
>culture
The only relevant "culture" here is criminal "culture." Strip clubs and porn don't turn men into rapists. Shitty upbringings, violent tendencies, and mental illness do.

>rape culture
The fact that you unironically use this term is very amusing to me.

>They either do not care or they are just flat out incapable of empathy.
Except rape and sexual assault occur not so infrequently while psychopathy comparatively does. I know it's difficult for people to swallow but it doesn't always take a deviant to engage in sexual or violent crimes. A normal person can be induced to act out of line given the right circumstances.

Another dipshit. Simply not caring about your victim's feelings doesn't make you a psychopath. It just makes you an asshole.

Idk what meaning you work with but inability to feel remorse or empathy is generally considered to be the definition of psychopathy, and iirc it's one of the rarest mental illnesses.

>inability
I said that some were unable. Others were just unwilling. There's a difference.

What the other guy said. This is specifically a women-centric philosophy you're asking for here; why wouldn't it relate to feminism?

Objectification is not demonizing male sexuality.Yes men are more visual than women(that doesn't mean woman are hardly visual themselves btw) it doesn't mean objectification is healthy male sexuality. I would wholeheartedly disagree actually. It is reducing someone(in this case women) to sexual objects whose only function is to provide some mode of sexual gratification.Contrary to popular(paternalistic) belief, it is possible to find someone sexy without ignoring all other aspects of their personhood, let alone their feelings.
Of course, the fashion industry still objectifies women, that is why there are so many women on the covers of magazines, mostly with those same degrading poses I was talking about compared to men. A women dressing a certain way(example shorts and a bikini) however, does NOT have to mean she is but a cum dumster. That's all up to how society raises us to think/associate in our minds(men and women's).

No shit, strip clubs and porn don't turn men into rapists, you idiot! There is a huge leap from watching porn and actually raping someone, even if the viewer does objectify women a bit. They would also have to ignore even her feelings and wishes. And at the very least, not care about being a criminal(as rape is a crime).
Hence though, you can see why objectification is part of the problem since ignoring a person's humanity past sexual gratification one can obtain from them+ being an aggressive prick can create mega problems.
Most men like you haven't raped anyone though, so just rapists are the problem.
Hopefully now you can see my point:that it is irrational to put any blame on the victim as with murder. Yes, there are certain steps that can help like walking in groups but rapists are shit period.
>A term I disagree with is b.s. and so are you for using it
If you're going to play the ad hom game and disregard arguments based on your own opinions keep in mind I could do the same by simply calling you a misogynist.

2/2
Continued
and YES the only relevant culture is criminal culture and THAT is why I think it is irrational to blame victims here.
Criminals are the problem and for a crime like rape especially, it would require abject discrimination and treating all men as suspects at all times if we are to put more responsibility on the victim(women in this case).This is not fair to men, is ridiculous, and oppressive(mainly in the case of not drinking much or having to carry gun because most days because you're a woman).
Rapists are the problem. Let's remember that always. What is so repulsive about such a philosophy?

Decreased sexual dimorphism was a mistake.