Can we all agree that it was the Soviet invasion of Manchuria that forced Japan to surrender...

Can we all agree that it was the Soviet invasion of Manchuria that forced Japan to surrender, since they lost 80% of their synthetic fuel production on that swoop?

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consortiumnews.com/2016/08/09/christianity-and-the-nagasaki-bomb/
combinedfleet.com/Japan_Oil.htm
google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiA56-CrfvUAhUJWD4KHWTWAcwQFghCMAM&url=http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA425684&usg=AFQjCNErKN3iVMwuoaW8PSFealdbPYmblw
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes#China
twitter.com/AnonBabble

It was the belief that the Americans could nuke every single one of their cities.

This.

The leadership was more than happy to lose the war in a bloody nightmare.

It's just the thought of doing it without killing any enemies that pushed them over the edge.

Form strategic point of view such loss of life could easily have been acceptable where as the loss of only Japanese industrial base(and the major one since they held nearly 60% of japanese war production) that was outside of reach for US strategic bombings. Mainland had in practical terms had already run out of steel&iron in the early 45.

This is not corroborated by internal Japanese documents. According to memos from the Japanese High Command, the loss of cities was not a 'pressing' factor for plans to force the US to negotiate a peace. America was already running out of cities to bomb by the time of the Atomic bombs, the air force was targeting "cities" of 30,000 people by this time because the larger targets were already so bombed out it was a waste of resources to bomb them anymore. It makes little sense that 2 more destroyed cities after most of their urban areas were already more than 50% destroyed would suddenly be a decisive factor.

In any case, the destruction of cities had essentially effect on the ability to defend the home islands from an invasion. The JHC plan to forcing the US into a meatgrinder to come to the negotiating table was NOT affected by the atomic bombs.

no effect*

>Japan produces a tiny amount of synthetic fuel
>Gets almost all of their actual fuel from the NEI
>America cuts off the NEI supplies in 1944, this is so crippling that they send what's left of their fleet on a suicide mission since it can't be fuelled anyway
>Suddenly, the Soviets overrunning their drip of a synthoil project is what knocks them out.
Are you retarded?

Most of their war production was based in Manchuria in 45.

American Christians killed their own Christian brothers and sisters in Nagasaki

consortiumnews.com/2016/08/09/christianity-and-the-nagasaki-bomb/
"Most Nagasaki Christians did not survive the blast. Six thousand of them died instantly, including all who were at confession that morning. Of the 12,000 church members, 8,500 of them eventually died as a result of the bomb. Many of the others were seriously sickened with a highly lethal entirely new disease: radiation sickness.

Located near the cathedral were three orders of nuns and a Christian girl’s school. They all disappeared into black smoke or became chunks of charcoal. Tens of thousands of other innocent non-Christian non-combatants also died instantly, and many more were mortally or incurably wounded. Some of the original victims (and their progeny) are still suffering from the trans-generational malignancies and immune deficiencies caused by the deadly plutonium and other radioactive isotopes produced by the bomb.

And here is one of the most important ironies: What the Japanese Imperial government could not do in 250 years of persecution (i.e., to destroy Japanese Christianity) American Christians did in mere seconds. "

It was a factor, but please tell me how the Soviets would attempt an amphibious invasion, especially without the support of the United States, which was one of the only reasons why their logistics were motorized over land in the first place.

They didn't need to. Declaring their hostility sunk the JHC's last ditch efforts to use them a mediator to find a negotiated peace with America and avoid unconditional surrender.

Why would you need to navally invade a nation when most of their troops were based in China?

Yes, most of their war production of SYNTHETIC FUEL was in Manchuria. That stuff was pretty worthless, and was being outrpoduced in volume by the amount in Japan proper. combinedfleet.com/Japan_Oil.htm

It was utterly, utterly dwarfed by what they were pulling from the NEI when they still had convoy access to it.
google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiA56-CrfvUAhUJWD4KHWTWAcwQFghCMAM&url=http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA425684&usg=AFQjCNErKN3iVMwuoaW8PSFealdbPYmblw

Since I doubt you'll actually read the links, let me spoonfeed you some selected quotes.

>As for synthetic fuel, the Seven Year Plan was a complete bust. Due to a host of technical problems, only 8 of the 66 planned plants produced fuel during the war, and production planned for 14 million barrels in 1943 reached an all time high of 1.5 million barrles in 1942. Worse, Japan had counted on synthetic processes to supply much of their aviation fuel, they supplied almost none. Cumulatively, indigenous and synthetic oil never topped 12 percent of Japanese requirements.

>The USSBS summarizes it neatly: The blockade shattered Japan's entire war strategy. Instead of the 28,500,000 barrels of oil its leaders had expected to import from the Southern Zone in 1944, it imported only 4,975,000 barrels

Even when shattered by blockade, they were importing about 3 times as much as their synth production. The synth stuff was never even relevant.

Japanese did not have operational mines for production of coal,iron nor facilities steel production in the home islands either.

They would have run out of ammo,weapons and everything else without Manchuria.

There are still Christians in Japan.

Gee, by that logic, why would the U.S. engage in their entire Pacific campaign?

Their need to destroy the imperial Japanese navy and cut supply form Japanese in dutch colonies?

Yes, that is the answer. Too bad you didn't read the sarcastic line of questioning.

What is there to be smug about? Soviets would have forced Japanese to surrender even without naval invasion of Japan or the nukes, just like they had single handedly destroyed the Germans.

Were your mother and father brother and sister? Were you the product of a deranged experiment to make someone with the brain of a baboon? Manchuria was fucking irrelevant. It had been for some time before the Soviet invasion, because the Japanese home islands were blockaded, and the home island ports and transportation network were bombed to hell. It wasn't the synth plants, it wasn't the coal or iron, it wasn't the Manchukoko levies, because none of that stuff was getting to Japan anyway.

For fuck's sake, they were running out of ammo, weapons, planes, pilots, oil, copper, zinc, food, everything you can name. And guess what? They were running out of it all before the Soviets attacked. Your "theory" is absolutely retarded, and I have no idea why you're clinging to it, other than the aforementioned defective brain hypothesis.

What the fuck are you talking about? U.S. took Okinawa AND nuked a city without their surrendering. How the FUCK would the soviets have forced their hand by taking Manchuria?

Manchurian production supplied the japanese forces in China, their only remaining standing army. Home islands were irrelevant by 45

By destroying their army?

In Japan?

There was no army there, only some scrubby militia units.

>Manchurian production supplied the japanese forces in China
No it didn't.
>their only remaining standing army.
The Home Islands, Truk, Malaya, and the NEI don't exist?
>Home islands were irrelevant by 45
Yes, the political center is irrelevant. That's why it was the government in Tokyo, and not individual army chiefs in China, that issued the surrender.

what i wonder the most is why did japan engage in soviet tier human have tactics in the war.
If that shit didn't work for the soviets it sure as hell won't work for them

*human wave

Hey dumb fuck, to go around in circles, the Japs weren't surrendering. How were the Soviets going to amphibiously assault Japan without U.S. lend-lease support when they doctrinal did not want the Soviets on Japanese soil?

It's like talking in circles, but you're always fucking retarded.

No, they prepared to surrender since America dropped the first bomb, they just too coward to admit it. Also, Soviet soldiers were very brutal back then, they'd done many rapes and pillages to locals, some local people hated them even more then Japs.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes#China

*than

> allowed by the Soviet military to go at the city "for three days of rape and pillage."
Like a good old medieval times, amiright?

it was basically a convenient excuse for japanese army leadership,
this way they didn't have to admit military defeat in the pacific and manchuria, and could say "oh well the enemy has found a wonder weapon capable of massive destruction, nothing we can do about that"

I don't have anything to back this up, but i'd imagine that human wave tactics would be much more effective against a less modern army like the chinese than against the much more modern german/finnish armies. I'd also imagine that the tactics that the japanese used were much more limited by their industrial capacity than the soviets were.

Banzai charges are way fucking dumber than anything the Soviets ever did, the Soviets at least had the decency to throw some artillery rounds first

NEI fuel didn't get to the mainland even before 1944.

Operation Starvation probably had the biggest impact to be honest. Hunger is a very powerful motivator.

Why is the Jap in the back beaming?

Yes but the first nuke galvanized Stalin to rush his invasion of Manchuria, since he could see the writing on the wall was afraid of being left out of East Asia's post-war affairs. The second nuke was a waste of time, but the first nuke definitely shortened the war by about a month or so.

Nagasaki wasn't the original target, Yokohama was. It was aborted because of bad weather and hit the secondary target (Nagasaki) instead.

>It makes little sense that 2 more destroyed cities after most of their urban areas were already more than 50% destroyed would suddenly be a decisive factor.

It's almost as if Japanese are human, right?

Probably happy he doesn't have to die

I believe there would have been a very real fear in the extreme likelihood of Americans using their nukes for tactical support.

Are you an idiot? Japan had pulled most of their actual Army and supplies back to the home islands because they were awaiting an American invasion.

What they left in Manchuria was the Kwantung Army which was nothing but a skeleton by the time the Soviets invaded.

>However, as the war situation began to deteriorate for the Imperial Japanese Army on all fronts, the large, well-trained, and well-equipped Kwantung Army could no longer be held in strategic reserve. Many of its front line units were systematically stripped of their best units and equipment, which were sent south against the forces of the United States in the Pacific Islands or the Philippines. Other units were sent south into China for Operation Ichi-Go.

>By 1945, the Kwantung Army consisted of a mere 713,000 personnel, divided into 31 infantry divisions, nine infantry brigades, two tank brigades, and one special purpose brigade. It also possessed 1,155 light tanks, 5,360 guns, and 1,800 aircraft. The quality of troops had fallen drastically, as all the best men and materiel were siphoned off for use in other theaters. These forces were replaced by militia, draft levies, reservists, and cannibalized smaller units, all equipped with woefully outdated equipment.[5] The Kwantung Army had also bacteriological weapons, prepared for use against Soviet troops (see. "Detachment 731"). The bulk of military equipment (artillery, tanks, aircraft) was developed in the 1930s, and very few of the soldiers had sufficient training or any real experience.

The Soviets did not have the same existential threat to Japan Nukes + a massive allied armada poised to strike at the Nips that the Americans led.

Not sure if bait, or just stupid commie cuckposter.
I'll just go with dirty fag loser.

>In any case, the destruction of cities had essentially effect on the ability to defend the home islands from an invasion

And the loss of Manchuria would?

The US had already sunken the entire Japanese merchant marine.

By 1945 American submarines were pissing away torpedoes on wooden sailing junks.

How is fuel from Manchuria supposed to reach the home islands?

Sort of. It was less the invasion itself and more the declaration of war. The Soviets were the last credible """"neutral"""" party for the Japanese to try to negotiate through. With that route completely nixed and the U.S. having the ability to completely obliterate cities in a microsecond, Japan surrendered.