Justify the violence and brutality against labor movements in the United States throughout it's history.
How can a country in which citizens were and are hunted down, imprisoned and even killed simply for their beliefs be called "The Land of The Free"? Free to whom? The capitalist class and plutocratic state?
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>preventing something like the Holodomor or the Great Leap Forward requires justification
>Bringing up events where the estimated numbers have been proven wrong and even if the estimated numbers were true capitalism has killed more throughout history anyways
>Implying similar things would happen in developed 1st world countries
All those socialists were faggots who went against the ideas that this nation is built upon. They can all burn in hell like the tyranny lovers they were.
God Bless America
They all need helicopter rides
>not real communism
>not real numbers
Collectivism doesn't work. Get over it
>not real capitalism, it's corporatism
>the free market would regulate itself
Economic freedom is inherently destructive to democratic society and destroying the environment for profit doesn't mean something is successful.
>"it's not genocide denial when WE do it!"
>implying any country would stay first world under communism
hischokingpol&leftypol.png
>Implying the Kulaks didn't deserve it
ya you get the bullet too
>It's genocide when people don't cooperate for the greater good
>implying first and third world countries would stay capitalist without first would interventionist imperialism
America is the Whore of Babylon described in Revelation.
Your country's godless materialism will get you a one way ticket to Hell.
I was right when I said Veeky Forums is bizarre Christian-Marxist mixture.
Deus Vult, you Nazi porkies!
I think I remember you saying that if you are the same user.
Personally I am not religious and strongly dislike American Christianity but if it was egalitarian I wouldn't have a problem with it being what it is.
>Economic freedom is inherently destructive to democratic society
You've got that backwards. Political freedom tends to erode economic and civil freedom. First example Venezuela
By this logic, violence against capitalists is justified to prevent the Potato Famine and rampant malnutrition
>vast majority of capitalistic states don't commit genocide, but a few do
>literally every communist state has committed a genocide
totally comparable, top-tier analysis
Right wingers on Veeky Forums parrot the anticommunist slogans that the state department and media use to support the status quo while sincerely believing that this makes them anti-establishment.
By this logic, violence against nature is justified to prevent death and pain
Economic freedom is absolutely essential to democratic societies. There's a reason why the earliest republics had strong cultures of commerce and trade.
>destroying the environment for profit doesn't mean something is successful
Neither is controlling every little aspect of society and killing the people who disagree.
Are you fucking retarded?
The only communist government to which genocide has been alleged is the USSR, and very few mainstream scholars believe the Holodomor was a genocide. This logic mostly comes from the mouths of Ukrainian nationalist politicians, and Westerners without any understanding of the famine lap it up.
The suppression of labor movements in the USA drove those movements into the camp of the Soviets in the 20's and 30's. Self-fulfilling prophecy.
By this logic, violence against trees is justified to avoid splinters and falling branches.
The real story here is the story of Irish, Italian, and other Ellis Island immigrants causing insurrection against what was the United States' WASP majority establishment.
>remove government
>That's propaganda created by the state department!
So you're one of those people who went to college and got stupider.
>it's not genocide if we kill everyone equally
In Marxist land, apparently the Killing Fields of the Khmer Rouge didn't happen nor did the North Vietnamese scourging of the Montagnards after the Vietnam War.
>China didn't commit genocide
>Khmer rouge didn't commit genocide
Fuck off tanky. People like you are the reason /pol/ exists
where the fuck are the mods?
I'm not even the person you're responding to, but I felt compelled to offer a counterpoint. You (the government) propagate the idea that the enemy seeks the destruction not only of the status quo, but also what a person might reasonably enjoy about your society to create a conflation of change with the negative. This is common for most conservative movements in general. Mind you that's not a necessarily negative or inherently wrong viewpoint to have, but those concepts are often interconnected with conservatism.
This no doubt had some influence on the course of action pursued by the government and the ruling class of the country and segues nicely into what I was going to say below here. It's also something that might be useful to add to the thread.
It's also on record (from FBI records and other documents from Hoover's tenure at that institution) that they drummed up the Communist threat far beyond its capabilities and capacity and stoked the Red Scare by feeding McCarthy information they'd obtained (with questionable legality), even though by the 1950's they'd all but destroyed the movement in America. This was even before TOPLEV allowed them to place a spy in upper echelon Soviet/Communist circles.
Nope.
en.m.wikipedia.org
Out of the dozen and a half communist governments which have existed, only two have been fingered as perpetrators of genocide -- the Soviet Union, whose potential complicity in a genocide of the Ukrainians is now largely rejected by historians, and Cambodia, a highly regressive US proxy used to counteract Soviet influence in Southeast Asia.
The vast majority of genocides have been perpetuated by capitalist governments. Turkey against the Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians. Imperial Russia against the Circassians and Jews. Germany in 1902 and throughout the Nazi period. Indonesia in 1965 against the Chinese and then twice more against the Acehnese and Timorese. The Japanese against all their foreign subjects throughout the Imperial period.
Perhaps even more horrific is the ambient destruction wrought by capitalistic inequality, particularly in the third world. The domination of so many economies by a few hundred first-world companies withholds capital from much of the global south, preventing any serious efforts to relieve poverty in these nations or develop their economies beyond the extent that benefits foreign resource-plunderers.
>create a conflation of change with the negative
I think you could summarize conservatism in a sentence as "We should probably do what's always worked in the past.", so your point is valid.
The issue I have is putting forward that this idea is coming from the government. Governments like centralization as it gives them more power over the people they govern. I can't speak for other countries, but in America "what's always worked" is decentralization. That's why we have states instead of provinces, and why we have two Senators for every state. We try to keep power to the lowest level of government where it is effective, and limit government wherever possible.
I do not believe the government would release propaganda to convince people to prevent the government from seizing power. You might be able to argue that Cold War anti-Communist propaganda allowed the government to grow by fighting wars in other countries, but that doesn't seem relevant today.
>mfw he thinks that capitalism is a political system not an economic one
Commies grasping at straws in their criticism of capitalism and projecting their own political/economic/religious ideology with its antithesis
The only thing that capitalism could be guilty of is the huge wage gap it creates.
>The domination of so many economies by a few hundred first-world companies withholds capital from much of the global south, preventing any serious efforts to relieve poverty in these nations or develop their economies beyond the extent that benefits foreign resource-plunderers.
Which is called corporatism, in which government and big business get into bed together. It also happens under socialism and communism.
but communism and socialism are the most materialistic dogmas ever conceived
it's all about the haves vs the have-nots. It's all about the material wealth and who has it and who should have it.
communists aren't people. Okay, it's justified
>Imperial nations are capitalist.
>Fascist nations are capitalist.
Do commies not believe in dictionaries? Are dictionaries tools of the bourgeoisie?
>the ambient destruction wrought by capitalistic inequality
Is this something that you can prove? Or is it like the Patriarchy, which is totally real and totally oppressive but no I can't describe it without using a thesaurus to find 20 synonyms for "amorphous". Also thesauruses are tools are the bourgeoisie.
>The domination of so many economies by a few hundred first-world companies withholds capital from much of the global south, preventing any serious efforts to relieve poverty in these nations or develop their economies beyond the extent that benefits foreign resource-plunderers.
Would you like to provide a source for anything that's in that sentence?
Marx even called his ideal "dialectal materialism".
>deeeehhhhh duh free market is immune to monopoly
Pro capitalist here, you're silly.
>but why does no one like us :((((
Here's your answer, OP
Imperial Russia was 'capitalist'? Lmao
>I think you could summarize conservatism in a sentence as "We should probably do what's always worked in the past."
I think you could better summarize conservatism as "Let's do what the progressives were telling us to do yesterday, rather than what they're telling us to do today."
When did communist China commit a genocide?
Communist masses certainly killed a lot of people in their overzealous attempt to purge their country of social parasites, but genocide is the deliberate attempt to destroy an ethnic group. Though regrettable and unacceptable actions were taken to Sinicize the peoples of Tibet, Yunnan, and Xinjiang, masses of civilians were never rounded up and killed like the Japanese had done in this same country just a decade earlier.
In fact, many ethnic minorities found success in revolutionary China that would have been impossible during the imperial period. Pic related was one of the foremost military leaders of the PROC despite his Hakka heritage, which would have precluded him from public life in previous decades.
But Jesus was a socialist
Communism is the most bourgeois ideology possible, literally the only people that believe in it are brainwashed college retards and spoiled upper middle class teenagers.
>I'm a literal retard so I don't realize that economy shapes politics and that material demands drive foreign intervention
This.
The fucking Brownshirts were more in touch with the working class than commietards, the street brawls in Weimar Germany were basically unemployed young men fighting against upper middle class men who thought they knew what was best for everyone else.
Violence against communism is always self defense. There is nothing more American than kicking a socialists teeth in.
While aspects of feudal production remained, how was it not capitalist? Private rentiers oversaw wage laborers and the government bent over backwards to appease foreign industrialists, the nationalization of whose property spurred the multiple invasions of Russia by capitalist powers in the immediate aftermath of WW1.
Fuck commies. That's the only justification needed.
Few third world countries truly command their own economic destiny. Those whose resource markets are not controlled by foreigners must gear their own production toward quenching a first-world thirst.
51% of American's now believe capitalism doesn't work (18-29). 30yr old and up will suffer until the young eventually change the system. And make no mistake, it's coming.
Yep, fascism is just around the corner.
Fascism is capitalist to the core.
But that would imply that progressives managed to implement policies that worked.
No it's not.
>but that doesn't seem relevant today.
>saying this post 9/11
To avoid the resource trap they need to diversify their economy and to do that they need free trade and free markets so multinational corporations, tourists and foreign journalists flood in and counterbalance whatever shitty tinpot dictatorship or borderline organized criminals grabbed ahold of the resources.
You can cry about foreigners starting a business in your country all you want, to me it stinks of the very xenophobia leftists always whine about. However it pays off when Pablo works his way up to store manager and has enough money and experience to open up his own franchise.
You can't justify it, The rich are constantly waging class war against their peasantry and demanding they do nothing about it but submit meekly and give a monthly tithe to the CEO. This violence only highlights the tension between the classes inherent in the capitalist system. Look up the battle of Blair Mountain, the Banana Massacre, and The Ludlow Massacre.
Are you under the impression that Middle Eastern dictatorships are communist?
So North Korea is heaven on earth to you? If uou want no freedom and a strong state.....
NK is the way it is because the communists weren't put in the ground in time, too bad all those Koreans have to suffer for it.
Fascism protects property, outlaws worker movements, and demands that the needs of the working class be subordinated to the needs of the state.
It is capitalism with fangs, the last gasp of a faltering economic system that attempts to stave off its own demise through extreme force and obedience.
>Turkey
It wasn't capitalist back then. It was feudal.
>faltering economic system
Lmao, yeah kid, capitalism will fail any day now, as it was supposed to do every day since the early 1900s.
Face it, your revolution will never come and you'll be flipping burgers till you die.
That wasn't true fascism, true fascism has never been tried :^)
Are you really trying to suggest that capitalism in Weimar Germany was working?
Fuck off, leftypol. No one cares about your failed ideology.
Are you suggesting it takes losing a world war to collapse a capitalist system?
>Boom-or-bust economy requiring incessant growth at any cost
>Yessir this system is completely sustainable :^)
Modern capitalist Germany is the richest country in Europe, the former socialist East meanwhile is only just now starting to catch up economically entirely thanks to capitalism.
>commietards have a kindergarteners understanding of how capitalism works
Can't say it's surprising.
Is this a joke? Socialism was a failure.
By sheer force of power, they've implemented policies.
Those policies haven't worked.
Capitalism doesn't have to kill millions of people to create prosperity.
Millions of people end up dying when central planning fucks with the money supply and imposes high taxes and regulations though.
Socialism is just central planning with utopian rhetoric.
The opression of communists protects freedom. As long as communists are allowed to vote, democracy is reduced to fexes and chickens voting on whats for dinner. Which it basically is now with the welfare state, but luckily the foxes are niggers who are too lazy to go vote lmao
reds are bourgeois and kulaks, ok now it's justified.
Wtf I hate communism now
...
>Justify the violence and brutality against labor movements in the United States throughout it's history.
Because we can't let it happen here.
Can't get it too, both capitalism and socialism heading towards global government over unified standardized population in favor of top 1%. Probably "divide and conquer" tactics, it's still works fine.
you're not wrong but if you assign a derogatory form of the world "materialism" that liberally you can make many things seem absurd
"materialism" isn't necessarily bad, marx called it materialism
the form of the word materialism you're using is different from it's inherent meaning, born to describe an unhealthy obsession with superficial worldly pleasures... not basic needs.
so attempting to invalidate a concept by using that word as if it's inherently negative is silly
anybody replying against is a retarded /pol/ shill that doesn't realize how many died to get an 8 hr workday
>the killed a lot of people because they belong to a certain political group
>but it wasn't genocide
guys, leftists don't redefine words randomly in order to win arguments
No, that's what you're doing. Genocide, by definition, is ethnic removal.
Literally change Kulaks to Jews and you're a stormweenie
Modern commies are probably the lowest form of scum the earth has ever created, at least Commies in the past didn't have ample information that their plans were doomed and were merely misguided
>da jews deserved it XDD
obvious shill
>Justify the violence and brutality against labor movements in the United States throughout it's history.
You SJWs want to destroy the white race
It's clearly been insufficient.
Watch the video you fucking Stormcuck retard. In the old black and white footage from the early 1900s you can clearly see the majority were white. Equality doesn't destroy the white race just white supremacy. It didn't become a majorly race issue until the civil rights movement. Most communists nowadays despise idpol because SJWs that claim they're socialists say identity politics are more important than class politics.
stupid vaginal whore
Wow, you really fuckin' got me there. How will I ever recover?
Commie, please. Never once did I advocate a free market.
Really? I didn't realize that economic needs form one of the factors that shape geopolitics.
>wants to destroy "white supremacy" so million of nonwhites can flood into white countries
>calls others cucks
Why are you anti white shills so pathetic?
I am fucking astounded at how posters on Veeky Forums repeatedly condemn one group of people for murder and political violence, but then turn around and praise others for murder and political violence because they agree with their economic model.
this place is being overrun with leftypol SJWs, we'll probably be having pro negro-centrism threads soon
>Most communists nowadays despise idpol because SJWs
you subhumans are the SJWs
This place is overrun by both /pol/ and /leftypol/, and they literally both pull this kind of shit.
The worst part is I can't even call them on it because either side will be convinced that I'm a nazi or an SJW, then both sides will go back to flinging shit at one another and smear the whole board with their shit.
Capitalism failed multiple times already
>/pol/faggot thinks racial equality among the citizenry automatically means open borders
Wew, there wouldn't even be refugees if the US wasn't the world police and destabilizes middle eastern countries. Plus refugees and illegal immigrants are just cheaper labor for the capitalists.
>Plus refugees and illegal immigrants are just cheaper labor for the capitalists.
then why do you want them coming in, you fucking cuck?
Nah m8 you got it all wrong, it's actually one big jewish bolshevik conspiracy to destroy white race with BBCs and that guy Soros is a Jew and he's like behind everything.