Capitalism distributes resources the most efficientl-

>wanting UBI even for yourself
Nothing is for free, you should know this by now. You would be little more than a child living in your parents house, and you're certainly not the one making the rules.

If you're going to follow the analogy that government = mommy and daddy, we already have that, only we don't get any allowance and dad puts us in thumbscrews if we sound suspicious when we ask for some spending money.

the socialists' goal is to make everyone poor so that he no longer feels bad about his own shortcomings and failures

The primary goal of capitalists is to ensure that the poor is either silenced or eliminated as a problem, and that they are able to reap as much capital as possible before their deaths.

>socialism
>hey man, here's your weekly stipend. I know it's not much but at least you get food and an apartment

>globalism
>working 16hr days 6 days/week because you have to compete with a bunch of asians

>working 16hr days 6 days/week because you have to compete with a bunch of asians
Except who in the Western world actually does this? Show me all these people who are supposedly working "16hr days 6 days/week".

see how could this even be remotely true? the capitalist will need to pay for all his supplies and then pay his workers. he will need to do so regardless of profit. he will need to create a better supplies, provide better wages, or innovate new products if there is competition.
what is the socialists solution? only a certain group is allowed to provide supplies, all the money remains with them. workers may only be paid in case of profit, and even then they must share the little profit equally regardless of how much more work they have put in. and there is no competition, no. instead competitors are not allowed to earn wealth, as they harm the original product creator and his monopoly.

>Communists are butthurt over the idea that someone somewhere is having more than the state allotted amount of fun.
>It's the CAPITALISTS that are the sociopaths though
lol

>socialism
>food

Because in the way we're imagining this situation you're supposed to eventually get out of that house and not have to rely ENTIRELY on your parents.

Assuming you're from the US I also have to say that corporations have more say of party politics than the voters do. Not that the voters that even bother with voting over there (about half) aren't also largely controlled. UBI is pretty much a wet dream of the international elite.

I'm not even a libertarian or somesuch, but don't let yourself get cozy in that spiderweb of welfare programs.

t. Swede who used to be on welfare

>socialism
>you only get paid if we turn a profit and no matter how long or hard you work, everyone gets paid the same

>capitalism
>you'll get paid regardless if i turn a profit or not, in fact, if you work for me instead of Competitor Corp i'll throw in bonuses and healthcare and vacation time!

that is a very comfy looking house

And surely making the world a better place in the process.

This.
But so are most ludicrously expensive things.

This. Someone has to gold plate the sultans toilet seat.

>implying most of the production process isnt done by robots
Maybe 100 years ago that many would benefit but with greater efficiebcy more money stays in the capitalists pocket

i wonder who builds the robots

i wonder who maintains the robots

i wonder who installs the robots

i wonder who invents new robots

you know even those nigras digging those diamonds out of the ground put food on the table thanks to some vain cunt buying an ugly supercar

but I'm sure you would make their lives better by making them pull 120% quotas in some factory that makes shit nobody wants and stare at empty shelves, because there isn't enough shit people DO want

Wouldn't it be better for an equivalent quantity of labor to be consumed in producing something that's actually useful for society?

Most people aren't in a position to make the rules anyway. It's not like they'd be losing anything apart from the need to struggle just to stay afloat.

>I'm okay with engaging in conspicuous consumption that will result in at least several people dying
>I'm not a sociopath though

But you don't ever get out of the house though, you're always living under the government, the only chance you have of making the rules is becoming the head of some megacorp that owns half of congress.

>no matter how long or hard you work, everyone gets paid the same.
That's not what socialism is though. It just means that the means of production are collectively owned by the workers.

>you'll get paid regardless if i turn a profit or not
Until the business goes under. And when it does, there's nothing you can do about it, even if you knew that the management's decisions would lead to it - because you don't have a say, and you can't just go and start your own business because you don't own capital.

Except more people would benefit if the labor was used for something that's actually useful. Nobody's saying we should repeat the Soviet idiocy of completely stopping industrial growth after Stalin's death. But I'd much rather see that labor go to building affordable housing, or curing disease, than buying some lolconspicuousconsumption car for the 1%.

>and you can't just go and start your own business because you don't own capital.
so they got paid but they don't own capital that really makes me think user
well i think you're right. if capitalism worked, then America would be filled with small business and there would be countless stories of people leaving their current state of affairs to take a risk and start a business, even if they are in a desperate financial or social situation

t. Margaret Thatcher

fascinating argument, supply with more replies that don't address any of the criticisms against you, i'm learning so much about the intelligence of socialists

This

>I'm okay with engaging in conspicuous consumption that will result in at least several people dying
>Several people must be sacrificed to the Motor gods to consecrate the blinker fluid that turns a regular car into a sports car
>This what communists ACTUALLY believe!
lol at you

That shit isn't mass-produced though.

>People literally die because of communism by the tens of millions, so communists pretend all deaths due to want are due to the ideology that is single-handedly responsible for pulling billions out of poverty to try and desperately save their monstrous and wicked system.

Commies should be shot.

The workers.

...

Is this Swiss International Design?

>everything I don't like is capitalism, a redditer's guide to arguing economics

>Venezuela
>Soviet Union
>China before economic reform towards capitalism
>Warsaw Pact nations
>Yugoslavia
>North Korea
>Zimbabwe
>Cuba
>Mexico(ruling party since the 1920s has been a socialist party).

boy Capitalism sure is BTFO.

>not an argument.

Stay mad classcuck

Pointing out your opponent is arguing in bad faith is actually a perfectly good argument.

oh I almost forgot. Somali's communist government fell and the GDP immediately went up.

...

...

Communism is inevitable buko.

>posts a non argument
>gets flustered when called out
okay sweetiepie sugarlumps honeybunch whatever you say

>stateless

You need the State to enforce laws by coercive force.

why do i have a feeling that image was not originally made in jest

So when does the straw men where the robots kill us all happen

Nah. The robots won't kill us.

Rather when humans figure out how to break the safety DRM on their robot servant... Things go to hell.

Say, you could just send your highly hostile robot to a left wing protest at Berkley.

>UBI is anti-capitalist
???
Fucking Hayek was pro UBI. It eliminates coercion in the labor market.

Super cars are usually handcrafted with the aid of machines

diamonds aren't worth squat

>>capitalism distributes resources the most efficientl-
It does. You are thinking of effectiveness.

This shit isn't even history, please fuck off /leftypol/

Equal pay for all inherently exploits those whose work is worth more, to subsides those whose work is worth less.

1. Capitalism didn't even exist until around the 1700s, learn to economics.

2. Deaths due to want or greed are not the same things are deaths due to capitalism.

humanities
kind of
it belongs in Veeky Forums imo

Veeky Forums is just /bit/coin the board

well what is the point of that

>Install tyrannical regimes in Russia, Cambodia, China, North Korea, Eastern Europe, and Ethiopia
>Each regime kills hundreds of thousands, if not millions directly by military force
>Regimes like the Khmer Rouge kill up to a quarter of the population
>Untold millions more are sent to suffer in specially made labor camps for disagreeing with Communist dogma
>Communist leaders deliberately engineer famines to cull their enemies, whether ideological or ethnic
>Mao himself claimed that "one-tenth of the peasants would have to be destroyed" (~50 million people at the time) to facilitate Communist reforms
>None of this happens in capitalist countries

>B-but muh preventable deaths!!!

Are Communists the most disgusting, morally bankrupt people in existence?

Humanities

>Are Communists the most disgusting, morally bankrupt people in existence?
it's a group of people who want the world handed to them on a silver platter, no matter the cost. are you really that surprised of their lack of ethics and empathy for other humans?

UBI is a decent idea but it requires a drastic rethinking of how we look at government and it's purpose, and it's one i'm not sure a lot of people are willing to make. In America, the party we call the Republicans, who identify as the 'Conservative' party, believe the role of government is to do the absolute minimal to enable local governments and institutions to succeed while preventing out and out chaos, trusting to human ingenuity and initiative to sort out problems.

The Democratic Party, who identify as Liberals, believe that the purpose of government is to protect people from discriminatory abuse, unfair and bad faith activity, and actions which lower the overall prosperity of both majority and minority.

Neither side is fully prepared to embrace the ideaology that UBI represents - the role of government is to equitable provide and distribute resources for the benefit and prosperity of it's people. You see more left leaning Democratic Socialists like Sanders embracing these ideas, but the majority just aren't there.

I think UBI is an idea that could work, and that could be very beneficial to society. I just don't think you'll get people behind it for a whole plethora of reasons.

>humanities
but commies aren't human

The government can't be trusted to distribute resources fairly and equitably if it can't be trusted not to lie to us. Any government that desires more control while keeping information classified should be resisted.

[Seinfeld bass line]

how would UBI work or be beneficial?
welfare was a tool by whites used to destroy the black family unit, and look at black people in America now
UBI is just income redistribution rebranded, it's welfare for an entire nation

...who get paid to do so, and can stop working at any time.

>calls yourself anti-capitalist
>advocates for UBI
>law of value and commodity exchange still applies
>the proles are tranquilized and you just extended the lifespan of capitalism

UBI: The opiate of the masses.

I'm not sure how to respond to hilariously rediculous conspiracy theories.

The issue isn't that the government is a hyper competent manipulation machine that creates complex coverups and schemes to keep the populace weak and satiated.

The issue is the Government really IS just that banal and inept, and every bad thing they do is the work of either some cynical lifer working for a paycheck or some idiotic but well intentioned optimist who doesn't fully think out the ramifications of their actions.

>the role of government is to equitable provide and distribute resources for the benefit and prosperity of it's people

Sounds like someone we know

The reason we don't view the government like that is because we aren't slaves, that is to say Communists.

UBI is a system that would collapse the economy like a house of cards, we can't have any system remotely like that until we have what amounts to post-scarcity, and we'll never have total post-scarcity, only resources that are rendered post-scarcity.

Its not even a question of trusting the government, its a question of efficiency and incentives. People who think that GREED is the reason communism always fails are just as ignorant as communists.

Communism fails, not because of communism, but because of the inefficiencies born of central planning. The OP is a perfect example. Capitalism is 'inefficient' because it creates so much wealth that large amounts of resources are wasted on frivolous bullshit. Communism is inefficient because it causes huge shortages of necessary goods because government bureaucrats don't have the necessary information available to them at all times to accurately predict the wants and needs of the people and assign production in an efficient manner creating surpluses and shortages such as those that struck the Soviet Union.

What free market worshipers don't understand is how skillfuly capitalism can subvert socialism by hijacking its tenets.

>Not true communism =^)

Its not a conspiracy theory, its economics. If you subsidize something, you get more of it. When women know they can obtain their livelihood from the State it removes the economic incentives to marriage, since a woman knows she can leave a man and suffer no decrease to her standard of living. Personal incentives can work, but those have been fucked up in other ways.

I love how socialists are such fans of Star Trek, because its actually a good example of UBI in a post-scacity world. Its canon to the setting that although many people join Star Fleet to better themselves and all that shit Picard won't shut up about, the majority of the population stays at home on their holodecks living fantasies and masturbating.

That's really the best case scenario of UBI. NEET Trek: The Last Generation.

>The worst case scenario is it collapses the economy because we don't have replicators yet.

not because of GREED, but because of*

How well is UBI doing on the ideas market? People buyin?

You can't "hijack" the tenets of socialism, the only thing that winds up happening is you get "capitalists" who openly push for socialism without fear of social consequence.

Sure some guy may make a bundle of money selling t-shirts with pictures of Che on them to teenagers, but at the end of the day the only thing of lasting consequence he's done is normalize Che among teenagers.

Are you implying UBI is socialism?

This. It's shitty and decadent sure but at least workers benefited from it.

Less people would have been involved if this was the case. Automation saves money obviously.

>Smallpox is capitalism
-100 million
>Atlantic slave trade killed 15 million despite only involving 12 million slaves
-10 million
>Indian famines greatly exaggerated
-22 million
>Nazis were capitalists
-25 million
>Algerian war of independence is capitalism's fault despite being started by socialists
-1 million
>Vietnamese killed by US higher than total Vietnam war dead by both sides
-1.5 million
>US bombing killed twice as many people as died in the civil wars
-500,000
>Both Angolan and Mozambiquan civil war deaths exaggerated by half a million, murders by communists not mentioned
-550,000
-600,000
>UN sanctions on Iraq death toll exaggerated
-600,000
>Civil war in Afghanistan death toll exaggerated, blamed on capitalism rather than Communist invasion
-400,000
>Destruction of Communist Yugoslavia blamed on capitalism instead of just Nato bombings
-190,000
>Congolese civil war death toll exaggerated
-2 million

Total killed:
222,655,929
-164,340,000 misattributed or made-up deaths
=58,315,929 killed by capitalism in over 500 years.

Remember not to fall to commie lies

Something like this

how is it a conspiracy theory
oh right nevermind /pol/ is here, the white man didn't do nothing guys, blacks were never treated unfairly

How the fuck do luxury goods justify the need for a UBI? It's stimulating the economy more than money sitting in foreign bank accounts to avoid taxation. Besides, that car is the cumulation of thousands of man-hours' worth of skilled labor.

And if capitalism isn't the most efficient method of distributing resources, than what is? It sure as hell isn't any form of Marxism, considering how all attempts at implementing it turned out.

Remember that communism just leads to more poor people and a large corrupt government class. Communism led to people in Ukraine literally eating each other to survive. Also when is it ever a good idea to have some college aged twat to tell farmers that have worked the soil for a century that they are growing shit wrong cause "muy state run everything"

Nazis are worse.

Literally every western country before governments started enacting socialistic labor laws.

>dying of malaria
in shit holes with shit economies
>dying from curable disease
in shit holes with shit economies
>dying of hunger
in shit holes with shit economies
>die from lack of clean water
in shit holes with shit economies

More capitalism would fix this, prove me wrong.

>And surely making the world a better place in the process.
Actually, barring bullshit like gold-plating toilers or whatever, luxury items are also chance for the company to place OP stuff in it, like the latest gizmo, which will eventually might be introduced in consumer items.
>Assuming you're from the US I also have to say that corporations have more say of party politics than the voters do. Not that the voters that even bother with voting over there (about half) aren't also largely controlled. UBI is pretty much a wet dream of the international elite.
Late Roman Empire, here we come again.

>there would be countless stories of people leaving their current state of affairs to take a risk and start a business, even if they are in a desperate financial or social situation
There aren't, though.

Just a handful of examples that are glamored up and spread on facebook feeds.
>This guy that was almost a hobo now runs a successful food joint. WATCH THE VIDEO!

>The government would never keep anything secret
IT TOOK THEM TWENTY FUCKING YEARS TO ADMIT THE NSA EVEN EXISTED.

>DUDE THE SINGULARITY

AI