Genuine lovers of history always have a love for the classics, and of course their religion.
People like this have spent years obsessing over the primary sources, looking for sacred texts and poems to satisfy that knowledge for this subject. And as we do, we want to actually talk to people about it.
I was pretty fucking angry about the pagan community on /pol/. They literally knew nothing about the ancient mythology and pagans, they've read nothing, they performed no rituals, and they can't even read the original language. They were David Duke style racial opportunists who twist these ancient religions and misrepresent them to support their political agenda. They're no better than templarpers.
What I want is an actual pagan community where we can talk about this subject. We can have people from Veeky Forums, Veeky Forums, /x/ and hell, even /out/ and /an/ to take part.
You think we can do this, Veeky Forums? Should I try to create a cohesive community using various platforms for this?
Spread of ideas, promotion of pagan and ancient history/ culture/ religion.
Zachary Nelson
What readings would you recommend, OP? I know a little of Greek/Roman mythology from lectures but nothing else.
William Cruz
Start with the Greeks, So if you haven't, read the Iliad, Odyssey, Theogony, and some Sophocles plays.
Resume with the Romans. Seneca was very religious, along with Cicero, Ovid and Virgil.For some esoteric stuff, read Apuleius and anything late empire.
Next with the Norse. Read the Eddas, and read the hero poems of Sigurth.
Jack Cooper
Not OP, but I've been told the Eddas are a good start for Nordic Mythos
James Edwards
I would say these are more difficult if you are just starting with mythology. Odin, for example, has almost countless names and there are so many kennings that it takes some time just to get ahold of who the poems are discussing.
There is also significant doubt about who many of the Gods were, and in some cases it is speculative in that the translator will invoke a Greek myth or even Christianity for the God.
I would agree with for the most part. I think Plato is a good addition since you get an understanding of philosophy and many discussions of the myths, although from a clearly Platonist view.
Christopher Harris
posting memes
Jeremiah Ward
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William Sanders
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Michael Taylor
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Levi Gomez
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Wyatt Thompson
History is something to be hated, not loved. Pagans are something to be hated even more. Stop LARPing, you pissy little boy.
Andrew Rodriguez
Nice shitpost. I've been on Veeky Forums for awhile now. You're not fooling me.
Jacob Jackson
This is the first ever depiction of Christ and it was a literal shitpost.
Based pagans.
>It is hard to date, but has been estimated to have been made c. 200.[4] The image seems to show a young man worshipping a crucified, donkey-headed figure. The Greek inscription approximately translates to "Alexamenos worships [his] God," indicating that the graffito was apparently meant to mock a Christian named Alexamenos.[5]
Charles Taylor
You've been here for a fucking week and have spent most of that on /pol/ you D&D-loving sperglord. Go LARP your own death faggot. >first-ever KNOWN DEPICTION Fucking redditors.
Jace Harris
Well aside from the inevitable shitposting, anybody else interested in proto-indo-european religion and got any good essays/books on it? Its always funny to see how a lot of these pantheons are similar (Thor, Perun, Jupiter, Indra, etc).
Calm down dude you can be interested in history & ancient religions, at least he's not one of those /pol/ types sperging about "European religions" introduced by central asian horsemen.
Lincoln Williams
History and ancient religions are topics for RPG-playing pseuds. The same type that make "Veeky Forums (or Veeky Forums) APPROVED VIDYA GAYMES THREAD XDD" threads
Anthony Rodriguez
LOL go somewhere else lad.
Here's some ancient Roman jokes to make you smile a bit because you're pretty upset.
>A student who wanted to teach his ass [donkey] not to chew on things stopped giving him food. When the ass died from hunger, he said, "What a disaster! Just when I had taught him not to chew, he goes and dies on me."
>A fellow ran into a student and said to him, "The slave you sold me has died." "By the gods," he replied, "he never did anything like that when he was with me."
>A student had been looking for his book for many days and unable to find it. He just happened to eat a salad and turned around and saw the book lying in a corner. Later he met a friend who was crying because he had lost all his clothes. "Don't be down-hearted," he said, "but buy a salad and eat it: then turn around and look in the corner: you'll find them there."
>An incompetent schoolteacher was asked who the mother of Priam was. Not knowing the answer, he said: "It's polite to call her Ma'am."
Thomas Hughes
I'm a phd candidate in religious studies focusing on paganism, will probably focus on fragmentary survival in western europe.
Anyways, what I noticed reading about "pagan" religion, is that the pagans believed in many different things in many different periods, Take greco-roman religion for example, the religion of Pericles was different than the religion of Ptolemy II, religion of Cato was different than the late antique senators. It is realy absurd to critisize pagans for not following the "ancient religion" when pagan religion changed over time and places.
I do believe people who belong to same religion acted,prayed in other words worshipped differently in different eras. But this is a very sensitive subject, when I talk about differences in early christian religion, people get really triggered. Same with pagans, who attacked christians for lacking a tradition and making stuff up while their religion also changed and shifted over time.
I'm aware I'm liberally using the term pagan but you get what I mean. Anyways, I just think one must be a bit lenient towards modern pagans in their worship.
Isaac Campbell
The pagan and mythological religions seem dynamic in that sense which is why it's so attractive. By the end of the late empire Rome was fully integrated within tons of Polytheistic religions. Mixing Roman and provincial deities along with long lasting religious customs.
Connor Perez
>You've been here for a fucking week and have spent most of that on /pol/ you D&D-loving sperglord. Go LARP your own death faggot.
Pagans are the LARPers - which is why there's still lightning storms but there's not an ounce of evidence for talking burning bushes.
>HAHAHA STOP CRITICIZING MY BULLSHIT IDEOLOGY LMAO
Julian Clark
I think the issue is that most Pagans are mostly following romanticized and unitary version that is either fodder for ethnonationalism or otherwise a attempt to give historical credence to some other belief (like gaia stuff in Wicca). The issue with many people (including me, to an extent) is that it's treated like an ornament for some kind of past that wasn't historically real, though people do this with other religions to a lesser extent. Of course, all religions were never unitary completely, but modern paganism, aside from hardcore restructionists, seem like people who just like an Romanticist version of the past and take up a religion to legitimize that interest.
Out of curiosity, do you know if anything of how zoroastrianism was treated in the Roman Republic/Empire?
Lucas Turner
Never made an ideological claim mate. I know you're shitposting because no one has his much vitriol for someone's interests.
And you're honestly telling me not a single joke I listed made you laugh? Lighten up, will you?
Christopher Morgan
'muh paganism' is an ideological claim.
Justin Lewis
Not really. If you read my original post was a community merely about the discussion and protection of ancient religions.
And if it is, why does that bother you that I'm interested in something you're not? Come on lad, just let the people who enjoy talking about this talk about it.
Carson Allen
>protection Ideological claim >lol just let us talk about rape and murder its le cool IF YOU ARENT INTERESTED JUST GO WTF
Blake Wilson
Can you explain your image?
Noah Kelly
>Rape >Murder Literally everyone from every walk of life is responsible for this.
And is that absurd to not take part in something you disagree with? What's the alternative? You can't silence me, or anyone else for that matter. Or are you the type of guy to lecture about my taste in books, movies and so on.
I remember when I was like that, it's inherently unattractive to everyone around you. .
Joshua Walker
>he can't read Good work, adolescent >I remember when I was like that Now you're just a slave, good work! >it's inherently unattractive to everyone around you. Why would I care what a load of turds think?
Robert Ortiz
Why are you so mad, user?
Christopher Smith
I agree there is an attractiveness, but also quite a bit of "forbidden apple" meme, even though it is no banned. I wonder what would happen If europe stayed in polytheistic course like India (minus the monotheistic invasions) I agree, actually you can put "ethnonationalism" into the "romanticising" concept, they romanticize the past to fit their ideology, everyone does that to an extent, muslims with scientist of khalifate, christians with crusaders, pagans with old religion. It is really hard to take out your 21st century ideas (most devleoped post 19th cenutry) of religion, nationalism, ethnicity, ethnostate etc and try to examine history. I deffinetly do not deny I have biases, but I'm amazed that how many people fail to emphatize, I mean, really emhpatize with the past living. I had a guy who questioned why France allied themselves with Ottomans, for him, everyone must have hold a romantic pan european pan christian values, and nations acting according to their interest over their religion seemed unexplainable to him.
>Out of curiosity, do you know if anything of how zoroastrianism was treated in the Roman Republic/Empire? When they made true contact with that area you must remember Parthians were controlling persia, I don't think there was a lot of beef against Zoroastrians, both due to Parthian lack of power compared to rome and mayhaps the lack of centralized zoroastrianism.
Now the Sassanian Empire is another beast, The state was powerfull, quite powerfull than Parthians, it was centralized and dare I say as in above, Zoroastrianism changed, it changed a lot, became more monotheistic, more organized, more state controlled and aggressive, I'm sure zoroastrianism was seen in a quite negative light akin to arians or nestorians, and nestorians were protected by sassanians for similar reasons.
Asher Martinez
I know you're laughing behind your keyboard lol.
Just admit it, your gig is up. Go troll some other thread. From now I'm going to actually to bump the thread with good info.
Jose Hughes
I'm not mad. Why do you assume I'm mad? >anybody i disagree with is just le troll
Brayden Thompson
To add, Read Inscription of Kartir, a Zoroastrian Priest of Sassanian era, it describes quite livingly how he destroyed pagan temples and churches alike and how he opened many fire temples.
Another religion one must take notice is Manicheism, it became such a great threat that they were persecuted both by Zoroastrians and Christians, famous christian authors wrote works just to counter Manichean arguments. I find it really interesting that this amalgamation of zoroastrianism-christianity-paganism and gnosticism had a change to take over Byzantine/Roman and Sassanian Empire, just as Christianity take hold of Rome. The religion is also quite interesting.
Funny how nowadays it is barely known
Nathan Stewart
If Europe would of have stayed polytheistic it would be a full fledged synchronized religion. Synchronized with other polytheists, the state, the media, and the culture. It was a growing trend in the empire to expand religious tolerance and acceptance but Christianity stopped that .
I have an obscure book with collections of mosaic I can't find online and one of them is of an Egypto-Roman senator standing next to Osiris inside an Egyptian tomb. I might scan all the images one of these days.
Lincoln Cook
>WE WUZ DIVERSE N SHIEEEET Delusional pagan.
Brayden Bailey
You can be polytheistic and intolerant at the same time. Look at some hindus and their view on islam and christianity, Pagans also persecuted others, for atheism, or sometimes worshipping spesific gods that they don't like, Dionysus was offcially banned for a while in Rome.
I have my doubts about the Synchronization, it is one thing to accept there are many gods and people worship differently but another thing to unifty them under one pantheon, to have a unfied way of worship, a unified organization, Julian tried to build something alongside that line, but he was mocked by other pagans and I think his neo platonic view of Paganism was seen as weird-laughable.
Who knews what would happen, What If'ism in history is quite fun to do, but you can't come to any conclusions.
Though to give credit where its due, Julian was one of the few pagans who understood the danger of Christianity and how a religion with such an organization (refusal of other gods + prosteltyzing for one god) had the power to become very strong. Many pagans did not see, or rather understood how Chistianity would erase them, yes this happened over a long time period but as Ramsay Macmullen wrote, the pagans learned to become compliant.
Benjamin Roberts
I think you overestimate how tolerant polytheistic societies were, the Romans forced all religious groups to worship/venerate the Roman emperor for the imperial cult and persecuted many small cults/religions such as the Bacchus mystery cult and famously Judaism/Christianity (even if the latter was exaggerated). A wider array of religion might be tolerated, but with conditions that could violate the original spirit of the religion. In that sense how different is it from a Priest allowing Yuletide celebrations and Spring festivals as long as they are spent praising Christ.
William Howard
>see thread discussing something you don't like >start sperging out calling people names >no arguments >lol why would I be mad
Adrian Gonzalez
>arguments are good because im le pagan XDDD I LIKE TO KILL ANIMALS DEUS VUUUUUULT11!! Back to /pol/
Brayden James
The Romans had a general trend of initial religious tolerance of potential and current provinces.
In the Twelve Caesars it states that Augustus would often greet foreign people first by attending their religious ceremonies to show openness.
>Dionysus was offcially banned for a while in Rome.
It was the underground mystery cult that was banned. I could be wrong.
>but another thing to unify them under one pantheon
You're right. Distinct pantheons would exist but they'd maintain the same relationships as they did in the past. With the exception of Romans and Carthaginians.
Aaron Perez
I feel you OP.
I'm a Hindu, and while our traditions are pretty separate, they ultimately stem from the same Proto-Indo-European base. I'd consider it pretty easy for me trace things all the way back to the Vedas considering the amount of literature written in the Indian subcontinent, but I am very interested in what came before and how our earliest ancestors' religions diverged into the myriads of traditions seen in antiquity.
Nothing makes me sadder than the loss of thousands of years of knowledge and wisdom of forefathers by invading belief system. Islam came close to wiping us out many times. I'd love to talk about this subject and keep the knowledge alive.
Christian Davis
Mostly accurate
Essentially it boils down to this in the Imperial age.
If you try to dethrone Jupiter and the Emperor, you're not welcome. But most people wouldn't have a problem with that so peaceful negotiations were more common than not.
>Rome is cool >Rome has an Emperor >Don't piss off Rome
What conditions could the Romans use to ravage another polytheistic religion? I can only remember the case of the Druids where it was actually legitimate because they were defined as a foreign political class rather than a religious one.
Aaron Adams
I wonder if any emperor did the same with with the Jews, hmm. But given the persecution of Christians, I must say that tolerance is independent of religion and more related to politics, surely certainly religinos are more accepting than the others but most of the time I believe that you have to be tolerant. The Christian rome was de facto quite tolerant towards a lot of pagans, Christian Emperor Theodosius had little problem to go to the pagan domniated senate in Rome and had them keep their power, even though they supported a rebellion against him (by a pagan general iirc), The movie agora, for all her inaccuracies (anti science christian meme etc) portrayed this quite good imho, there were christians who just wanted to get by and knew provoking pagans woudl cause riot-instability, and there were zealous bunch who push extremism no matter what.
Reading the life of Shenoute of Atripe, a Christian monk from egypt, is quite interesting in thsi regard, When he was prosecuted for causing trouble Shenoute cites again and again how the laws of theodosius granted him the righ to smash statues, destroy temples and chimp out against pagans, ironic that many christians, including the emperor ignored most of the laws for the sake of public stability.
Not all emperors are like that though, Justinian for example sponspored qutie a bit of missionary and/or persectuions consequences be damned, He executed pagan senators in constnatinopel and city of Gaza rioted due to the offcially backed conversino attempts. Don't you think the religion changed over time? I mean I'm not knowledgeable about hinduism a lot, but Rig Veda had a quite distinct feel, compared to say Mahabarata, then again even Rig Veda must have been influenced by other religions that it cameto contract with, maybe they adopted Indra from the locals? (as dyaus pitra was pushed away)
Landon Wright
I always appreciated my Veddic brothers.
Jaxon King
Almost all pagan pantheon's were the same in Europe.
Henry Russell
>WE
Elijah Brooks
No doubt the religion was influenced by the Dravidian people living on the subcontinent, but the same could probably be said about every other branch of the Indo-European tree. I've read in passing about the influence of the Finno-Ugric people on Germanic and Slavic pantheons.
A couple of deities that we're pretty sure existed before the Aryans came in some form are Krishna, Murugan, and Kali. But Indra is Indo-European through and through. We can find some mention of him and other Rig-Vedic deities before the Indo-Europeans entirely entered India. Additionally, his associations with thunder, lightning, bull worship, serpent slaying, marriage, the protection of mankind, and leadership almost mirror that of Thor's and to a lesser extent Zeus's and Perun's.
Reading Plato is good advice, as he references Homer and Hesiod often. In particular, I would recommend his dialogue Cratylus, which is a dialogue on the "correctness" of language, where he talks about the possible meaning of the different names for the Greek gods.
On Apollo: >...People who haven't correctly investigated the force or power of his name, are afraid of it, because they suspect that it does indicate some kind of destructiveness, But, as we said earlier it really comprehends each of the powers of the god, who is a single-minded, always shooting washer, who makes things move together.
