Versailles Treaty

Austria wasn't allowed to join Germany, not sure if they wanted.

>lmao Krauts xD

It was perfectly fine. Germany just fucked up and eventually chimped out.

>Inb4 Germany should've been given back everything
>Inb4 Germany should've been completely destroyed
No

>This shit again
Allied High Command was drawing up plans for a series of 1919 offensives that would take them all the way to Berlin.

>Hey remember that Pan Germanism thing you guys invaded France and Denmark over?
>Just stop doing that
>, plus we're going to take all of your colonies and take all the land you had and give it to everyone that isn't you :DDD
>Dont make us occupy the ruhr!
Yet people wonder why National Socialism became popular kek

The Paris Peace Conference kind of bungled the matter of German Austria altogether.

>no referendum for joining germany, a fairly popular idea due to pan-german sentiment and more importantly a lack of any better ideas on where Austrians should go now that their empire was over
>czechoslovakia created! even though if we went by demographics it'd be called czechogermanoslovakia, no way this could end up being a problem!
>when we said "national self determination" we meant "all of that new gigantic Austrian diaspora can fuck off back to Austria ASAP"

do you actually know what it said? it was too harsh.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles

Germany should have been brought back to it's pre 1870 borders (albeit further rationalized, along the lines of current states of germany)

No, why shouldn't the Germans have the right to a nation state?

>Germany has to pay reparations that are a drop in the bucket (Most of which never get paid)
>Gets to keep its intact industrial heartland
>The limits on its military allow it to focus on other stuff, like economy
Meanwhile, France:
>Industrial heartland devastated by Germany blowing up factories and infrastructure as they retreat
>Reparations are not nearly enough to pay for all this
>Lost much more of its population percentage-wise than Germany
>On top of this, the Germans actively sabotage their own economy in the 20s because they know France needs that money
>Despite everything mentioned above, France is treated as the aggressor when they occupy the Ruhr and later when they build the Maginot Line (A series of DEFENSIVE fortifications)

France was the true victim of Versailles.

Oh it's the frogaboo who thinks that Germany wasn't completely devasted by the war either, and that the Treaty of Versailles, after levying the harshest reperations per it's GDP of all the other axis powers and sending it into total political free fall with endless amounts of coup attempts and street wars, just wasn't harsh enough.

Leddit is a much better place for you.
>It was Germany's fault for the hyper inflation
>Germany should've been completely destroyed :DDD
Don't even start, just go back. You want to go back. Just go.

>Germany must pay reparations of £2,000 million to Belgium for the atrocities committed there.
>Germany forbidden from constructing any more battleships, forever. No military restrictions besides that.
>France gets Alsace-Lorraine but nothing else
>The Kaiser is permanently removed from power. The treaty explicitly endorses the Weimer Republic as the proper and legitimate government of Germany.
>Austria is made part of Germany
>League of Nations is formed, America actually joins this time

Done. WW2 averted.

Germany should have been separated in two parts and eternally militarily occupied
That's what happened after WW2 and it worked well enough

t. Stalin

>What French troops? By this point in the war, the French army was basically dead.

Are you joking?
Pic related, the offensive that won the war

Yes, France was the country in which the war was fought, that's why there was a lot of destruction.

Still
>drop in the bucket
lmao, it's not like Germany had any debts because of the war or something
>Gets to keep its intact industrial heartland
which was then occupied by the French and essentialy taken from Germany
also they had to open the main shipping rivers as interntational waters, limit their merchant fleet unneccesarily and give up all colonies, large chunks of their country, populace and natural ressources.
>The limits on its military allow it to focus on other stuff, like economy
I'm sure that was the intent of the restriction, not to assure there was no way for Germany to resist the treaty

Oh, they were "drawing up plans for a series of offensives"? Do you know how many times during WW1 they drew up plans for offensives and it didn't fucking work?

also:
>France is treated as the aggressor when they occupy the Ruhr
yes, you are the aggressor when you invade a defenseless country.

also it's not like hundreds of thousands of Germans starved during the winter because of the allied blockade... where were the reperations for that?

Germany had every right to try and claim a place in the sun.

>use the term "Axis" for WW1
>thinks he has any credibility

Germany is the country that got off the easiest on the losing side
Meanwhile, A-H and the Ottoman Empire were entirely partionned, while Germany only lost the lands it had recently stolen

>Germans are trying to conquer the world!

*meanwhile*

Germany is less of a nation than Yugoslavia.

it wasn't harsh enough, germany should have been balkanised

Go back to /int/ with all of the other retards.

Britain only invaded shitskins
Germany attacked white countries, which is over the line

Yes, its not like the Ottoman Empire and A-H were Empires composed mainly of subordinate peoples whereas Germany was a nation state with small minoroties at the border. No difference at all.
>Posting on a history board
(You)
>Crimean war
>Boer war

While this map may look impressive, keep in mind Britain only loosely controlled those colonies and relied heavily on the natives support.

a united Germany is bad for Europe

it's like when they keep trying to make communism happen, stop, it's not gonna work

the >H>R>E is unironically a better geopolitical Germany

Provide logical reasons for that statement.

Yet, both the Austrian and Ottoman empires were older than Germany. It would have been completely feasible to create an independent Bavaria, considering kingdoms still existed within Germany and that some german states weren't too happy to join Germany in the first place.

>everyone but british and french hated it
The French hated it with passion, their long awaited victory, paid with the blood of millions, has been stolen by supranational lenders. They simply wanted to erase Germany.

No it wouldn't. Germany was a nation state, the official reason why many territories were stripped from Germany was peoples self-determination. The German people overwhelimgly supported the idea of a nation state. Only local rulers wanted to keep their independence. The fact that the unified nation state was young doesn't matter.

>while Germany only lost the lands it had recently stolen
Wow the level of butthurt frogaboo is intense lmao.

ALSAUCE LORAINE IS GERMAN CLAY

The back of the German Army was completely broken following the Hundred Days Offensive, getting to Berlin would have been a cakewalk.
Maybe Germany should have paid its debts, it was fully capable of doing so.

>But muh impossible to pay reparations

Following the Franco-Prussian War, France had to pay the largest war reparation IN HISTORY, and did so in three years with their country occupied. Germany never managed to pay off the comparatively tiny amount of money the owed following WWI.

>Pathetic hun trying to equate his band of malnourished bandits with the might of the well fed ("les soldats mangerons chaud" t. Petain , disciplined ("une main de fer dans un gant de velours", t. Petain), technologically superior and assisted ("j'attends les chars et les Américains", t. Petain) French army.
lmao, Foch was right, the allies should've rased Berlin.

Look at this butthurt revanchist, proportionally it was the same amount as Napoopan forced on Prussia back in 1807.

Are you trying to say that the German industrial capacity was damaged in any way?
What?
Do you have brain damage?

Foch was the reason that the French army was crippled in the first place.

...

>Only local rulers wanted to keep their independence.
Bavarians still feel different even today from the rest of Germany and weren't big fans of the Prussians. The religion itself was a problem. If the Entente managed to create an independent Austria, I don't see why an independent Bavaria would have been impossible. Perhaps making a new state with both Bavaria and Austria, not sure how well that would have turned out, but it was completely possible.

That would be Joffre and Nivelle you illiterate subhuman

And stay there with the rest of the mouth breathers.

Are you a Bavarian or a German?

Maybe they shouldn't have started the war by allying with Czarist Russia against Austria-Hungary.

>that response
so you are fom /pol/ rite?

What does that shithole have anything to do with this? I'm telling you to go back meme spout with the other retards at /int/.

>Proportioned based on population
>Population
Population was an incredibly shitty way to go about the indemnity if they wanted it to actually be proportional.

In fact, the war reparations the French had to pay were so large it triggered a worldwide economic recession.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Depression

>getting to Berlin would have been a cakewalk.

If that were true, then France would have actually done it.

Both too harsh and not harsh enough to prevent war. They should have known Germany would be uniquely pissed by the whole thing
>Government all of a sudden is a new government founded by a bunch of socialist
>Lose territory
>Blamed for war and shamed
>Huge war payments that fuck up currency
>Never even saw troops invade so its easy to believe Germany could win
So of course they start another war

It was wrong for Germany to force that sort of burden on France. However, it was equally wrong for France to do the same to Germany after WW1. After WW1, Germany had a new government, based on democratic principles. It was wrong to hold this new democratic government reasonable for the previous monarchist government which was deposed.

>Government all of a sudden is a new government founded by a bunch of socialist
Not Versailles fault, their previous one had collapsed
>Lose territory
That happens when you lose wars
They should have felt lucky not to end up like A-H or the Ottomans
>Blamed for war and shamed
They were the ones who escalated it, pic related
>Huge war payments that fuck up currency
When you destroy your enemies territory and then lose, expect big reparation
Anyway, it's not Versailles that fucked their currency but the worldwide US-spawned economical crisis known as the "Great Depression"
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression#Effects
>Never even saw troops invade so its easy to believe Germany could win
Yeah, France and Britain were retarded to accept Germany's surrender before fucking up the country
In the end, this act of mercy toward German people turned against them

No, I'm trying to say that if the labor force is incapacitated due to starvation, civil war, seizure of assets in German colonies, occupied like the ruhr, endless political strife, etc...it become a bit hard to say that Germany was unaffected by the Treaty of Versailles compared to France. France was affected more by actual warfare destroying infrastructure , but it still had all of it's colonies intact. Both recovered economic stability by the mid 20's. Germany, however, suffered multiple revolutions and the disentgration of it's former state.

Versailles treaty affected Germany more.

The only thing that Germany did wrong was attacking Belgium and Luxembourg, which were neutral countries. France was a perfectly legitimate target because of its alliance with Russia. This is why I say that reparations should have been paid exclusively to Belgium.

You overestimate the importance of colonies. Alsace itself was more valuable for France than all its colonies in Africa.

So you are French then

>a united Germany is bad for Europe
instigated WWI, started WWII, and is now trying to make the EU supreme legal/political authority over each member countries

>it's like when they keep trying to make communism happen, stop, it's not gonna work
this has been widely discussed on this board and site

>the >H>R>E is unironically a better geopolitical Germany
all the German statelets were enthralled in a convoluted arrangement that made the 'empire' a non-factor by the 18th century
and a lot of this shit it did cost had more of a religious background, so you could just as much blame the Roman Church

Nice job sinking your credibility with Brexit-tier propaganda.

>This is why I say that reparations should have been paid exclusively to Belgium.
Yes, I'm sure the French would have been pleased to know that Germany, that occupied their lands, bombed medieval cathedral and castles, destroyed their coal mines won't pay anything to them.

I'm not sure what your point is. Of course they don't like it. They can't do anything about it, though. They're completely dependent on Americans at this point. Yeah, you can keep saying "KEEP PUSHING TO BERLIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" but the truth is that there is a simple reason why France didn't actually do that: they couldn't.

I think your forgetting about French colonies in Indochina and Madagascar as well. Having Northern Africa certainly helped as well, meanwhile ALL german colonies were seized.
>Alsauce Loraine
Which was rebuilt eventually and given to France.

>They're completely dependent on Americans at this point
Not really, no. The Americans are equipped by the French. When the war is over, most of those American units are still training, and don't participate. France still has millions men capable to fight, the British troops, and they can use the Italian troops that just defeated Austria, and with its forces in the Balkans can open a new front in the south.

>This is why I say that reparations should have been paid exclusively to Belgium.

Are you retarded?
Reparations arent about the "innocence" of the victim or anything
It's about a country that defeated another one in a war getting repaid for damages BECAUSE IT CAN (it just won a war over the causer of said damages)

>but the truth is that there is a simple reason why France didn't actually do that: they couldn't.

The real reason is that the war had lasted 4 years and caused millions dead, so when the Germans offered to surrender (which meant victory for France), the French accepted instead of autistically refusing and pushing to Berlin

Yes, and? Indochina was the only colony that was profitable for France. Troops from the colonies did play their part, but losing those colonies in Africa wasn't such a big deal. I don't think it stopped Germany from starting a new war 20 years later.

What is right or wrong and who started the war has nothing to do here, the roots of the war were several generations old. The Versaille Treaty was a gift of god for Germany at this point, that's what I'm saying.

Are you kidding? Germany was on the verge of collapsing, not only it would have been a cakewalk (German military capacity was at its dead end) but the German Population would have welcomed the French troops for a piece of bread.
Nothing happened because for the first time in history the bankers handed the bill before the end of the fights, and forced a treaty that no one wanted. Welcome into the financial civilization.

>France still has millions men capable to fight
>14 year old boys
>58 year old granddads

Yeah, sure.

The nation of Germany was responsible for the damages caused in France and Belgium. The Weimar Republic, being the recognized successor to the previous government, also had to inherit the responsibility for those damages.

I'm sorry, but changing your government type isn't a Get Out of Jail Free card.

>It would have been a cakewalk!!!!!!!!

Okay, so then why didn't they just do it? Pretty big hole in your theory. If they could have done it so easily, then they certainly would have done so.

>Nothing happened because for the first time in history the bankers handed the bill before the end of the fights

Okay, so now we're scapegoating "the bankers" now. This just gets better and better! So these mysterious bankers were completely powerless until 1918 when they suddenly took control of the French government? Interesting theory.

and all other trash

STOP pitying Germany
STOP this attitude
STOP idolatring frustrated losers

believe me, I can't wait for the next. But you Werhaboos should really not.

>Okay, so then why didn't they just do it?

See massive retard
You don't refuse a surrender just because you could invade the enemy
Futhermore, when Foch accepted the German surrender, he didnt know that politician would fuck the peace so hard with their kind Versailles treaty

France still had substantial manpower reserves and food by the end of the war. The same could not be said of Germany.
>Okay, so then why didn't they just do it?
Because France thought they could get their terms in an armistice without further bloodshed. Unfortunately, Wilson fucked everything up with "muh 14 points" and at that point it was too late to resume hostilities.

>Germany is the reason why WW1 happened
>REEEE FUCK GERMANS
Jesus, Europe destroyed itself over colonial interests, pride, and industry and you are STILL stuck in the same mindset that killed millions of people.

No one was to blame for WW1 solely, to say otherwise is fallacious.

Wilson was the powerless president of a still irrelevant nation
French and British policians (those who had the decisional power unlike Wilson) are the one who fucked up by getting indoctrinated by him

>Stop idolizing frustrated losers
I love liberals always say this, yet when we talk about European Colonization of Africa and America suddenly it's
>Waaaah why did this happen?
>Have you no heart?

>The retreating German Army didn't destroy French industry and infrastructure in one last autistic spergfit
>The Rape of Belgium didn't happen
I'm sorry Hans, but you have to pay up for your crimes.

>No one was to blame for WW1 solely, to say otherwise is fallacious.

Guess no one was to blame for WW2 either then
Sure Nazi Germany invaded several nations in a row (just like the German Empire in 1914), but if the Entente countries that reacted to German aggressiveness in 1914 are just as much to blame for WW1 as Germany itself, then same goes for Allied nations that reacted to Nazi aggressiveness in WW2

Hungary was fucked harder in the post-war treaties than Germany or any other country of the central powers

>what is a world wide empire
France had tons of meat.

>Okay, so then why didn't they just do it?
Because for numerous causes the military suddenly had no word to say. But you're a fool if you think the walk to Berlin was somehow difficult, Germany in late 1918 was lost for good, they were lacking of everything and especially food. The armistice saved them from destruction.

Yeah, and crippling the Weimer Republic with outrageously huge reparations based on shit the previous government did accomplished nothing except allowing the Nazis to take over. The Weimer Republic was a new democracy that should have been treated as such. It shouldn't have been declared responsible for the actions of the monarchist state that preceded it.

Were some reparations warranted? Yes, Belgium needed to be compensated for the damages that it suffered when the German army passed through. Belgium was neutral, and so attacking through Belgium was a crime against peace. Reparations of £2,000 million should have been paid exclusively to Belgium.

In addition, Germany would be forced to scrap all of her battleships and permanently barred from constructing any more battleships to appease the Anglo. This gives Britain guaranteed naval dominance which is all they really cared about in the first place. France gets Alsace-Lorraine but nothing else.

There. Now that's a proper peace treaty would have looked like. Under this agreement, Europe experiences a new age of peace and prosperity under the guiding principles of democracy and free trade. WW2 is completely averted. The Nazi party never comes into existence and there is no holocaust. Perfect.

You're autistic

1. Germany declared war on France, ruined parts of its country, killed millions of Frenchmen and then lost to France
Thinking France shouldnt enforce reparations for that on Germany is dumb

2. WW2 would have happened regardless
German revanchism was based on butthurt about having lost the war while thinking they were better than everyone else
From the moment they lost, the only way to prevent another nationalistic chimpout from them was to divide the country and occupy it militarily forever
That what happened after WW2 and that's why Germans never chimped out again

>Germany declared war on France

Only because of France's alliance with Czarist Russia. France was a legitimate target. However, Belgium was neutral and thus not a legitimate target. So it is right and proper for Belgium to receive compensation totaling £2,000 million, which is what Keynes considered to be the maximum penalty.

>WW2 would have happened regardless

In my scenario, Germany never loses any territory except Alsace-Lorraine so you wouldn't see the kind of revanchism that occurred IRL. Also, because reparations are limited to £2,000 million there is no hyper-inflation. The Nazis never come into existence, and there is no holocaust either. The Weimer Republic continues to this very day, a shining example of liberal democracy in action.

>Also, because reparations are limited to £2,000 million there is no hyper-inflation. The Nazis never come into existence

Retard
German economical probels didnt steam from Versailles, you gigantic memester
Stop believing Hitler's propaganda
They were caused by an internationational economical crisis that hit the entire world

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression#Effects

are you sure? nothing in german economy was problematic before 1929?

>Let Germans starve by the hundreds of thousands
>B-but much industry!
Lmao
>Guess WW2 wasn't solely the Germans fault either
No. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a moron. If you're just completely unfamiliar with the history of central and eastern Europe , then you'd probably blame Germany for everything.

I dont

What the fuck? I made this thread because i was curious of what were the opinions of Veeky Forums on the subject. You seem like a leftypol newbie that throws buzzwords without knowing their meaning, so go back to your containment board if you have to.

It was no harsher than the terms of the Treaty of Brest Litorsk. Germany set the precedent, the Entente only followed it.

Naziboos BTFO

>Comparing violent communist Bolsheviks who committed mass murder upon everybody (even their own party) to anyone else
>Treating the Bolsheviks with dignity

I cited John Maynard Keynes, the greatest economist of all time. You cited a fucking Wikipedia article. Here, brainlet, try reading this, you might learn something. You should ask yourself, "if a brilliant man like Keynes was completely disgusted by Versailles, then who am I to defend it?"

So you think out of mere contempt for the Bolsheviks the Entente should have been lighter upon the Germans? That's ignoring the basic political realities of the time.